153 réponses à ce sujet

[Sports72Xtrm]

Grey wardens don't have the anti-magic abilities that Templars and seekers have and the immunity to blood magic and possession that seekers have and as others have likely noted they don't have near the numbers that the Templars have.

They also don't go crazy by having a red lyrium rock next to them or having their food laced with red lyrium: a liability that can easily be exploited. We can't ignore a resurgence of the red templars. Also it took the Inquisition a full on siege to take down Orlais Wardens and they've been sacrificing their people. Their numbers is not a problem. they have mages, and the power of blood. These guys kill darkspawn, mages won't be a problem for them .They seem adequate for the task.

 

I am recommending them as a First line of defense against maleficarum and abominations that I remind you is a worst case scenario since it is implied that Circles run by the first enchanter isn't trying to make their charges into blood mages and abominations.

[The Baconer]

Grey Wardens have enough among their ranks to face down hordes of darkspawn and if they don't well there's always conscription.

 

Maybe at one point in history this was the case, but according to the last two blights, this is no longer true. If people should be pissed over Lyrium addiction, I can only imagine what their reaction would be to a larger implementation of the Grey Warden conscription...

 

 

As for what the other nations think, would they rather not have Wardens defending them from darkspawn or maleficarum and demons?

 

It seems most people don't care for the Wardens' existence at all, at least until a blight rolls around.

 

Well, no, not even then.

 

 

The Seekers, the mages, the grey wardens, the templars- all fucked up but resentment and spite isn't going to solve Thedas' aged old problems.

 

The Seekers are toxic, and need to be replaced. Whatever organization takes this position should not resemble the old order in the slightest.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Maybe at one point in history this was the case, but according to the last two blights, this is no longer true. If people should be pissed over Lyrium addiction, I can only imagine what their reaction would be to a larger implementation of the Grey Warden conscription...

 

Many consider the Wardens valiant protectors and alienage elves and people of lesser means jump at the chance of being recruited by the Wardens. the fifth blight is still fresh in everyone's minds, that good will can be expanded and the Warden I hear is the most popular DA protagonist. I think your cynicism is coloring the facts. Grey Wardens have the treaties and has enough influence to bring nations together. That cohesiveness could solve a lot of problems and as I've said before, they don't become red templars. Their necessity isn't even in doubt, they're there so why not let them serve society as their protectors. The nobles cannot deny their necessity.

 

 

It seems most people don't care for the Wardens' existence at all, at least until a blight rolls around.

 

Well, no, not even then.

Ferelden and Amaranthine depending on the Warden's actions seems to be very fond of the Wardens and if you ally with the Wardens in Inquisition, they turn over a new leaf and society favors them in one of the possible epilogues. Again,  I think your cynicism is coloring the facts.

 

The Seekers are toxic, and need to be replaced. Whatever organization takes this position should not resemble the old order in the slightest.

As Iron bull says, it's ridiculous to hate an entire collective when everyone is different and justice demands that we judge individuals, not first impressions of the collective. Groups can learn to be better if they desire to.

[Cypher0020]

HHmmmmm

 

how about a Hogwarts style institution?

 

Circles are like boarding schools, mages go home, come back to study, until they're of age, then they take the Harrowing, they are given full mage status

 

Once that, they're free people. Only bit is, they perhaps have to report to a templar once a month or so........

[Karlone123]

Circles operate well as an academy for Mages, not the dreaded circle prison like Kirwall where they went too far with the abuse. I am pro-circle and pro-templar but not anti-mage.

[The Baconer]

Many consider the Wardens valiant protectors and alienage elves and people of lesser means jump at the chance of being recruited by the Wardens.

 

Who jumps at the chance? Note that Grey Wardens do not simply take whatever they can get. Then there's the number of recruits who will actually survive the Joining.

 

 

Many consider the Wardens valiant protectors and alienage elves and people of lesser means jump at the chance of being recruited by the Wardens. the fifth blight is still fresh in everyone's minds, that good will can be expanded and the Warden I hear is the most popular DA protagonist. I think your cynicism is coloring the facts. Grey Wardens have the treaties and has enough influence to bring nations together.

 

The Grey Wardens have influence in the 11th hour of a Blight. Outside of that, people care little for them. Even in their good ending, nobody, even the Wardens themselves, takes any interest in moving their focus beyond the Darkspawn.

 

 

As Iron bull says, it's ridiculous to hate an entire collective when everyone is different and justice demands that we judge individuals, not first impressions of the collective. Groups can learn to be better if they desire to.

 

Beyond Cassandra, there was literally not a single Seeker with any shred of integrity or virtue. Those who didn't follow their traitorous leader to their deaths turned their backs on Thedas and hid like cowards. If Kirkwall didn't already define what kind of people the Seekers were, the events in Inquisition sure did. They can **** off and stay dead.

 

Besides, many of their basic tenants are flawed, and Cassandra does not declare any intention to change them.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Who jumps at the chance? Note that Grey Wardens do not simply take whatever they can get. Then there's the number of recruits who will actually survive the Joining.

 

 

 

The Grey Wardens have influence in the 11th hour of a Blight. Outside of that, people care little for them. Even in their good ending, nobody, even the Wardens themselves, takes any interest in moving their focus beyond the Darkspawn.

 

 

 

Beyond Cassandra, there was literally not a single Seeker with any shred of integrity or virtue. Those who didn't follow their traitorous leader to their deaths turned their backs on Thedas and hid like cowards. If Kirkwall didn't already define what kind of people the Seekers were, the events in Inquisition sure did. They can **** off and stay dead.

 

Besides, many of their basic tenants are flawed, and Cassandra does not declare any intention to change them.

"They declare it time for the Order to emerge from the shadows, to join the rest of humanity in fighting their ancient foes." is their good epilogue and as Blackwall's says, "Sometimes you have to figure out for yourself what the pledge to protect others really means. It's not always just about Archdemons and Blights." In my opinion, that seems to imply they follow Blackwall's example, that they will extend beyond their concerns of just archdemons and blights. A warden can protect against bandits, malifecarum, werewolves, spirits, demons, ect. blackwall's association with the Inquisitor could just be the start. Listen, I don't know why you have such a hard on hate for Grey Wardens and Seekers and I doubt anything I say will dissuade you into believing they are just another dragon in your game to kill and suppress instead of reforming into something positive for Thedas' society but it is not out of lack of evidence but because you are too close minded to even acknowledge the possibility. And i say this respectfully because I think you're one of the posters who can see the faults as critique of an organization of an organization but I think your also someone who can't see the good.

 

Also the whole game of Dragon Age Awakening is about the Warden recruiting people jumping at the chance to become a warden so I will say that yes, there are people who would willingly join the Wardens and as for the Wardens influence, if they're sanctioned by the Inquisition and the chantry, then the people will respect the alliance. Even more so if the templar order is disbanded, society needs protectors now more than ever.

[Ashagar]

One thing to keep in mind about using wardens. Corypheus one of the original magister darkspawn was able to control wardens both when imprisoned and confused and awake and conscious. We also know from the lore he isn't the only one of the original magisters still around and we don't know if they are also capable of that. It might be problematic to have the wardens as a force given they could be vulnerable to mind controlled if another one of them gains their senses and come to the surface to carry out some plot.

[The Baconer]

"They declare it time for the Order to emerge from the shadows, to join the rest of humanity in fighting their ancient foes." is their good epilogue and as Blackwall's says, "Sometimes you have to figure out for yourself what the pledge to protect others really means. It's not always just about Archdemons and Blights." In my opinion, that seems to imply they follow Blackwall's example, that they will extend beyond their concerns of just archdemons and blights. A warden can protect against bandits, malifecarum, werewolves, spirits, demons, ect. blackwall's association with the Inquisitor could just be the start.

 

I don't hate the Wardens, I'm being realistic in how they've been commonly perceived throughout history, their goals, and their status. Why should Wardens even be the premiere protectors against bandits, malifecarum, werewolves, spirits, and demons? They have literally no advantage against these creatures over regular, non-tainted soldiers. Why even waste the lives on the Joining by this point? On top of this, it would require a surge in recruitment of mostly unskilled and/or untrained fighters, which the Wardens have never been interested in.

 

The Wardens, by the very nature of the joining, are a specialized force. I fully advocate a larger effort by all nations to give greater support to the Wardens, but I do not see any reason why they should be concerned with anything beyond the Darkspawn and the blights.

 

As for the Seekers, obviously there needs to be some kind of group fulfilling their basic mandate (preserving the balance of the Circle system), but the Seekers themselves can rot.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I don't hate the Wardens, I'm being realistic in how they've been commonly perceived throughout history, their goals, and their status. Why should Wardens even be the premiere protectors against bandits, malifecarum, werewolves, spirits, and demons? They have literally no advantage against these creatures over regular, non-tainted soldiers. Why even waste the lives on the Joining by this point? On top of this, it would require a surge in recruitment of mostly unskilled and/or untrained fighters, which the Wardens have never been interested in.

 

The Wardens, by the very nature of the joining, are a specialized force. I fully advocate a larger effort by all nations to give greater support to the Wardens, but I do not see any reason why they should be concerned with anything beyond the Darkspawn and the blights.

 

As for the Seekers, obviously there needs to be some kind of group fulfilling their basic mandate (preserving the balance of the Circle system), but the Seekers themselves can rot.

As Avernus says, "Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power." their very tainted blood gives them power, as I said again, the power of blood is an advantage. Grey Wardens believe there is no cure, they'll die anyways. The calling will take them, or they'll turn into a ghoul. They are mandated to protect the people, why not make their sacrifice mean something. I don't understand the resistance to helping the circles and seekers fulfill their mandates or protecting the innocent from bandits, as if they're lives aren't already endangered with killing the endless darkspawn hordes that will never perish (exacerbated by the existence of Disciples i.e., intelligent darkspawn), they're mandate never fulfilled, or the taint slowly killing them like a cancer. And why must the grey wardens replenish their numbers? Aside from the obvious blight possibility, it is the only method I know of that is a sound alternative to the templar order. And I am against a templar order because it could breed red templars. So it is the only sound alternative solution, since people don't have confidence in the seekers (i.e., their lack of numbers) or the muggles to keep the mages in check. And though I believe the mages can govern themselves, the muggles want a politically neutral party not associated with the Circle to protect them against mages so the grey wardens seems the best option.

[MisterJB]

There is, what, a few thousand Grey Wardens in Orlais? Protecting a population of many millions?

You would need dozens of thousands of Grey Wardens for them to be even remotelly useful if they are supposed to mantain a constant watch over mages. And the only way to do that is through a ritual that kills 2/3s of those that attempt it. You'd kill hundreds of thousands just through it.

 

And where would they get these tens of thousands of recruits? Well, I imagine from soldiers and chevaliers who are already meant to be protecting population centres to begin with.

[Sports72Xtrm]

There is, what, a few thousand Grey Wardens in Orlais? Protecting a population of many millions?

You would need dozens of thousands of Grey Wardens for to be even remotelly useful if they are supposed to mantain a constant watch over mages. And the only way to do that is through a ritual that kills 2/3s of those that attempt it. You'd kill hundreds of thousands just through it.

 

And where would they get these tens of thousands of recruits? Well, I imagine from soldiers and chevaliers who are already meant to be protecting population centres to begin with.

They're not meant to be jailers, they're meant to be protectors, agents of the Inquisition at least. They're like fire fighters, they go where the smoke is at. If there is an abomination rampaging, they mobilize. If they discover the mage is misusing their power, they and the first enchanter subdue him and they have a trial. The Circle supposedly run by the first enchanter is supposed to be held accountable for any potential abominations let loose or maleficarum but I would assume any First enchanter would not allow any mage who hasn't passed their harrowing to leave the tower so the risk of catastrophe is close to zero. And if they are under investigation, the Seekers go in using phylacteries and track them if they discover that the mage is corrupt or becomes apostate.

[The Baconer]

As Avernus says, "Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power." their very tainted blood gives them power, as I said again, the power of blood is an advantage.

 

In what way? You've referenced the "Power of Blood" stuff from the DLC, but how does this actually translate in the lore? What advantage does it give Grey Wardens over mages?

 

On top of that, this is obscure research, even for a secretive order like the Wardens. There is no mention of it at all in DA:I, and then there's also the possibility that Avernus doesn't even survive Soldier's Peak.

[MisterJB]

They're not meant to be jailers, they're meant to be protectors, agents of the Inquisition at least. They're like fire fighters, they go where the smoke is at. If there is an abomination rampaging, they mobilize. If they discover the mage is misusing their power, they and the first enchanter subdue him and they have a trial. The Circle supposedly run by the first enchanter is supposed to be held accountable for any potential abominations let loose or maleficarum but I would assume any First enchanter would not allow any mage who hasn't passed their harrowing to leave the tower so the risk of catastrophe is close to zero. And if they are under investigation, the Seekers go in using phylacteries and track them if they discover that the mage is corrupt or becomes apostate.

 

If there is an Abomination rampaging, there better be some Templars or Wardens already on the scene or all you're mobilizing for is to give the dead a proper burial.

Again, population in the millions. A few thousand Wardens.

 

And that is without even taking into account the more subtle dangers of magic.
 

[Sports72Xtrm]

If there is an Abomination rampaging, there better be some Templars or Wardens already on the scene or all you're mobilizing for is to give the dead a proper burial.

Again, population in the millions. A few thousand Wardens.

 

And that is without even taking into account the more subtle dangers of magic.
 

If tevinter isn't rampaging with abominations, I don't know why a Circle wouldn't be able to find some way to not have a demon possess them. Mages don't become abominations at random, a trigger must be elicited. Isn't that the point of a circle to teach them be able to control their magic? Templars fall risk to becoming red templars, and that is beyond their control if red lyrium is introduced to them. Hawke's viscount story should be an example of that. Mages have the best chance of monitoring their own.

 

As for the subtle dangers of magic, well in order to find the truth you have to look for it. You can't just presume guilt on everyone with a gut feeling. that leads to discord and resentment.

[Ashagar]

Yes there is the other thing besides abominations which is considered rightful a major threat by the chantry, blood magic. Given the uses blood magic been put to, how one learns blood magic and the fact it corrupts whoever uses it there is good reason to fear it.

[MisterJB]

If tevinter isn't rampaging with abominations, I don't know why a Circle wouldn't be able to find some way to not have a demon possess them. Mages don't become abominations at random, a trigger must be elicited. Isn't that the point of a circle to teach them be able to control their magic? Templars fall risk to becoming red templars, and that is beyond their control if red lyrium is introduced to them. Hawke's viscount story should be an example of that. Mages have the best chance of monitoring their own.

 

As for the subtle dangers of magic, well in order to find the truth you have to look for it. You can't just presume guilt on everyone with a gut feeling. that leads to discord and resentment.

So we're relying on two thousand or so Wardens to protect a population of millions plus hoping mages don't become Abominations if we teach them just right.

That is not very reliable.

 

 

BTW, I'd say mages have as much chances of becoming Abominations than Templars have of taking Red Lyrium.

More considering Red Lyrium isn't sentient and thus capable of tricking others while demons are and it can be regulated like any drug but the Fade can't.

 

As an addendum, the Circle was never about presuming guilt. It is about presuming danger.

But here is the thing, the same applies to any society. People have their freedoms restricted by the law from the moment they are born. It is why you and I can't just own a tank, for instance. This occurs because we all have the potential to be dangerous.

The same applies to mages. Their restrictions are simply harsher because they are more dangerous.

 

[Sports72Xtrm]

In what way? You've referenced the "Power of Blood" stuff from the DLC, but how does this actually translate in the lore? What advantage does it give Grey Wardens over mages?

 

On top of that, this is obscure research, even for a secretive order like the Wardens. There is no mention of it at all in DA:I, and then there's also the possibility that Avernus doesn't even survive Soldier's Peak.

Supernatural abilities beyond the scope of any normal man? If grey wardens are decked with magical equipment provided by the Circle, and are granted super soldier powers via taint, don't you think they'd stand a reasonable chance of surviving a demon or maleficarum assault?

 

 

 

Tapping the power of tainted blood makes the rogue more nimble, able to move more quickly while using Stealth and more likely to dodge a physical attack.

that could make a rogue able to quietly slip through an army of demons and slay the mage summoning it quickly and efficiently. not to mention, grey wardens slay emmisaries who are darkspawn mages with out templar help all the time so... they aren't exactly unqualified.

 

the power of blood gives the grey wardens a lot of versatility more than regular muggles, the tactics just need to be implemented. This is assuming that grey wardens work as a team like all parties.

 

I'm only going what I know by the lore and the dlc is part of the lore so why wouldn't I integrate it into the world. The power of blood has some sort of advantage that Avernus says can match demons, why would I doubt him?

[Sports72Xtrm]

So we're relying on two thousand or so Wardens to protect a population of millions plus hoping mages don't become Abominations if we teach them just right.

That is not very reliable.

 

 

BTW, I'd say mages have as much chances of becoming Abominations than Templars have of taking Red Lyrium.

More considering Red Lyrium isn't sentient and thus capable of tricking others while demons are and it can be regulated like any drug but the Fade can't.

 

As an addendum, the Circle was never about presuming guilt. It is about presuming danger.

But here is the thing, the same applies to any society. People have their freedoms restricted by the law from the moment they are born. It is why you and I can't just own a tank, for instance. This occurs because we all have the potential to be dangerous.

The same applies to mages. Their restrictions are simply harsher because they are more dangerous.

red lyrium has a paranoia and violent influence over templars that require nothing more than close proximity and is incurable once forcibly digested. All the templars saw what happened to Meredith, why is it that they all joined Samson and took red lyrium? Now what would happen if the venatori or the resolutionists started corrupting all the circle templars, a virulent outbreak would be unleashed that the seekers cannot contain. Mages are taught to fight possession and can succeed, but superman can't fight kryptonite if it's sitting right next to him or if he grows more kryptonite by swallowing it. red lyrium is a liability that creates monsters possibly even more dangerous than the darkspawn. So if you truly believe in presuming danger, you would recognize that there is no way to institutionalize the Templar Order with out running risk of a red templar resurgent thus they must be disbanded for the safety of all and seekers with their arduous training, cannot fullfill the ranks necessary to replace the templar order and must rely on other parties to aid in the mandate to keep order. Otherwise, all will descend into chaos once again.

[The Baconer]

Supernatural abilities beyond the scope of any normal man?

 

Given the increasing availability of pseudo-magic and quasi-magic accessible by regular people, this is not as significant as you're making it sound. Especially given the caveat that it's more likely to just kill you.

 

 

If grey wardens are decked with magical equipment provided by the Circle, and are granted super soldier powers via taint, don't you think they'd stand a reasonable chance of surviving a demon or maleficarum assault?

 

I think Templars will fare much better against demons and maleficarum while also being less expensive and less immediately dangerous to recruits.

 

 

that could make a rogue able to quietly slip through an army of demons and slay the mage summoning it quickly and efficiently.

 

Why not just chug some hyper-time-dilation potions instead? That way you don't have to give yourself Thedosian hyper-cancer.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Given the increasing availability of pseudo-magic and quasi-magic accessible by regular people, this is not as significant as you're making it sound. Especially given the caveat that it's more likely to just kill you.

 

 

 

I think Templars will fare much better against demons and maleficarum while also being less expensive and less immediately dangerous to recruits.

 

 

 

Why not just chug some hyper-time-dilation potions instead? That way you don't have to give yourself Thedosian hyper-cancer.

Theodosian hyper-cancer is a thing that exists and as far as Thedas is concerned, is incurable. Might as well have it do some good. If the seekers can recruit to cover every country with a circle more power to them, but I doubt it since seekers require arduous training and not all recruits come out not being tranquil apparently. But you don't like seekers so you'd rather have templars lyrium addled and addicted and could create a red templar horror fest outbreak orchestrated by their enemies. You can't make things better when there's a potential to make things exponentially worse. As long as there are darkspawn, there'll always be blight and the need for grey wardens, might as well integrate their abilities to good use.

[The Baconer]

Theodosian hyper-cancer is a thing that exists and as far as Thedas is concerned, is incurable. Might as well have it do some good.

 

That's what I want to do with it, but I'd rather not give it to more people (and kill even more people beyond that with the joining) for the sake of combating threats that do not warrant Grey Wardens over professional soldiers at all.

 

 

But you don't like seekers so you'd rather have templars lyrium addled and addicted and could create a red templar horror fest outbreak orchestrated by their enemies.

 

Red Lyrium, when propagated, does not require Templars in order to create horror-fest outbreaks. It corrupts and twists whatever forms of life that comes into contact with it.

 

By the same coin, Grey Wardens can still be manipulated using the taint. Given the existence of the Architect, we know that Corypheus wasn't the only one capable of doing this.

[DarkSun09]

I think they need a Professor-X's-School-for-the-Gifted type of institute. A safe place where they could learn to control their powers, and keep one another in check.

Mages that can control their powers and are deemed safe can come and go as they please. The unstable ones should be watched and mentored by other mages. No templars. I hate templars. Let the mages govern themselves.

 

I like the ending where the mages form a college at the end. That's the closest to what I want.

[Daerog]

If there are no Templars, the nations of Thedas will set up their own magic police force. So, instead of one that is built on ideals and devotion to a higher calling, you will have some built like that and others that are built solely to be the strong arm of local lords over mage subjects.

 

If the Circle is just going to become a bunch of boarding schools (Xavier's School for the Gifted, Hogwarts, etc.), then they are going to be under the watch of the nations they are a part of. Why would the nations grant them political immunity? The only reason nobles weren't Tranquilizing their mage subjects, drafting them into the military for raiding local noble rivals, or whatever nobles do to their subjects is because the Chantry said the nobles have no hold on the mages. The nobles and royals obeyed such things because they were either devout or their devout populations would revolt against them. The mages would have no such political immunity anymore and would fall under the laws of the nation they are stationed in and they won't be able to force nations to supply them with mages to train.

 

While I do like the Circle system and the purpose the Templar Order, I don't really have a big issue against mages just becoming citizens in their respective nations, with nations dictating the rights of their mages just like their own citizens, and having their own magic police force.

 

I don't like the idea of the mages becoming an independent, landless nation. Unlike the Wardens and Inquisition, they are not some giant mercenary force, they are more like a nation at this time. They'd just be like the Dalish, with nations not caring unless they get something out of it. The nations might as well ignore the College and start their own schools unless the College accepts the local laws and decrees.

 

Downside would be more mages in wars or skirmishes in the south. Upside is more research into anti-magic technology or whatever to reduce the impact of mages in enemy forces. Perhaps enough would be produced that commoners or at least lower nobility can afford such things. Anti-magic enchantments, wards, or devices could end up making mages just interesting fellow citizens who can't do anything too major with every building in a city casting its own magic nullifying aura.

[Ryriena]

It doesn't change the fact that history views them as such. When you hear the word templar, people thing Crusades. They think Friday 13th. They think death and violence in the name in religion.

Also, that doesn't make Gaider's response any less confusing. -____-"

Friday the 13th is the day the Knight Templars were slaughtered by the Kings army. Dude learn your lore and history