153 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyofClockwork7]

Reform is a good idea, imo. I don't agree with everything Vivienne says but she's right when she says nobody sees the world like mages do, and they need the company of other mages who understand them and their struggles. The circles are a good idea, but they should be optional, not compulsory. Perhaps when a child is discovered with magic, senior mages could go to talk to the child (with a templar or two escort for protection) to evaluate the possible extent of their magical ability. And mages should be allowed to leave if they've completed their Harrowing, and templars should be peripheral protectors while the mages govern themselves. They should also try to foster friendships between the mages and templars to prevent fear and antagonism through misunderstanding. Treat it like a sanctuary, not a prison, and more mages might want to go there willingly. Idealistic, I know, but I'd like to believe it's possible with Cass as Divine.

[X Equestris]

I know my lore and history. They were slaughtered because people believed they deserved it. They believed it was justice.

And you used it to support your point that Templars were antagonistic and viewed as such by history, when in fact history has vindicated them. Bioware didn't choose the order's name because they wanted to draw on a "bad guy" connotation, they chose it because they're both religious military orders.

[Suledin]

They must be really round. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

I like them better then Squares, I guess. 

[X Equestris]

Again, them being good guys isn't a unanimous verdict. By antagonistic I was referring to their connotation.

Unless you were a Muslim fighting the Crusaders in Outremer, they weren't even antagonistic, and even then, they were respected by their opponents for their fighting prowess and conduct.

Again, it isn't history's connotation that views them as antagonistic, but pop culture's

[Suledin]

Otherwise you're dealing with an ellipse, and then it all just goes downhill from there.

Oh dear...

[Ryriena]

I really don't appreciate that you guys seem to think I'm a complete ignoramus who is getting their facts from Google or something.


I've "read up on actual history". History doesn't view them as good. Some do, but even today whether or not the Knight's Templar were a good order is a topic for debate. In addition I stated that the Templar are viewed as "antagonistic" in real life. Not that they were actually evil, but the negative connotation about them isn't something that can be ignored. Perhaps it was history rewriting them, but it doesn't change the fact that they are viewed by many as a corrupt order.
I still don't think the comment makes sense. Make up the name of an order. Drug addicted, magic wielding, mage-haters isn't what comes to mind when I hear the word "Templar".


I know my lore and history. They were slaughtered because people believed they deserved it. They believed it was justice.

They were slaughtered because the King of France had falsely excused them of things because he had owed them money. History has showed them as victims of an King that wanted to get rid of a debt.


They had protected many pilgrims that went to Jerulusm, and may have found numerous relgious historical items, which includes the holy grail (some speculation have said it was the descendent of Jesus Christ that they found) that caused them to rise up so quickly. They have never been seen as the bad guys in history.

Their is also a number of accounts from the Muslim fighters that respected them for their fighting abilities and their spirit in battle.

[Ashagar]

Yes the historical Templars had a negative view of them compared to the 30 other holy orders by the time they were purged owing to the fact that many in both the Christian and Muslim world viewed them as being responsible for the fall of acre by deserting the siege while everyone else fought on. That they engaged in banking didn't help their cause either given the negative medieval view on it being usury.

 

That being said the in-game Templars have nothing to do with the historical Templars other than a fondness for white. As a side note if they are conscripted the black they use makes them look like the knights Hospitaller.

[keesio74]

I think they need a Professor-X's-School-for-the-Gifted type of institute. A safe place where they could learn to control their powers, and keep one another in check.

Mages that can control their powers and are deemed safe can come and go as they please. The unstable ones should be watched and mentored by other mages. No templars. I hate templars. Let the mages govern themselves.

 

I like the ending where the mages form a college at the end. That's the closest to what I want.

 

I like the X-Men analogy. Currently I see it as the rebels as the "Magneto" faction when I prefer the Prof X model of a school for guidance. Some questions I have for you:

 

-The 'unstable ones", as you put it.... what if they do not want to be watched and mentored by other mages? Do you force them? And if you forced them, how do you do so?

-The Prof X model relies on a Prof X who believes in the system. What if the Prof X of mages is no longer and there is no suitable replacement? Or the new leadership decides to tear down the existing system? How do you guard against that? And what should be done in such a case?

[Ryriena]

If it's not history's connotation that views them as villains then why did I learn from my professor that they were viewed as such? Is she just an idiot who got her degree for nothing and should ask for her money back?
Not by all people, but by some. There are people even today who view the Knight's Templar as a corrupt order. I'm not saying they were one, but there is definitely a connotation at least by some that, historically, the Templar were "evil".

So she got a degree as a Historian herself? Because a real historian would not protray them as villains

I'd rather not argue this any further, however, and I still think that if that's David Gaider's reasoning it's odd. Comparing using the name of the Templar order to using dwarves and elves is hardly comparable, IMO.

Whatever!

[X Equestris]

Yes the historical Templars had a negative view of them compared to the 30 other holy orders by the time they were purged owing to the fact that many in both the Christian and Muslim world viewed them as being responsible for the fall of acre by deserting the siege while everyone else fought on. That they engaged in banking didn't help their cause either given the negative medieval view on it being usury.
 
That being said the in-game Templars have nothing to do with the historical Templars other than a fondness for white. As a side note if they are conscripted the black they use makes them look like the knights Hospitaller.

I don't know what you're talking about, since it's well known that the Templars were among the last defenders of Acre.

[Ryriena]

I don't know what you're talking about, since it's well known that the Templars were among the last defenders of Acre.

Triple this I mean really they defened Acre to almost the last man alive and had heavy loses due to them defending Acre. 17,0000 Knights were at the seige.

[Iakus]

I like the X-Men analogy. Currently I see it as the rebels as the "Magneto" faction when I prefer the Prof X model of a school for guidance. Some questions I have for you:

 

-The 'unstable ones", as you put it.... what if they do not want to be watched and mentored by other mages? Do you force them? And if you forced them, how do you do so?

-The Prof X model relies on a Prof X who believes in the system. What if the Prof X of mages is no longer and there is no suitable replacement? Or the new leadership decides to tear down the existing system? How do you guard against that? And what should be done in such a case?

Well, the sad fact is unstable mages do need to be watched.  Not just for their own safety, but for the sake of everyone around them.  Redcliffe shows us the kind of damage even one abomination can do.  And there are plenty of examples of the damage an untrained or undisciplined mage can do.

 

Templars, or something like them are likely to be needed.  People who can dampen magic and effectively fight demons.  Other mages could of course, help.  But the power that templars can bring to bear is uniquely suited for magic gone rogue.  I wish there was an altrnative to getting strung out on lyrium, though. 

 

As for what happens when there is no Professor X to run things, well, we've seen what happens.  Both in the southern Circles, where these havens became prisons in all too many cases, and in the Circles of the Imperium, where the mages took over everything.

 

The difficult ywith mages is that, while they are human beings (and elves)  It's possible for them to become monsters.  And thus becomes all to easy for people to think of them as such.  Or to think of them as people when their humanity has been usurped and they become a threat to everyone.

 

Magic in Thedas is truly a case of Blessed With Suck

[keesio74]

Well, the sad fact is unstable mages do need to be watched.  Not just for their own safety, but for the sake of everyone around them.  Redcliffe shows us the kind of damage even one abomination can do.  And there are plenty of examples of the damage an untrained or undisciplined mage can do.

 

Templars, or something like them are likely to be needed.  People who can dampen magic and effectively fight demons.  Other mages could of course, help.  But the power that templars can bring to bear is uniquely suited for magic gone rogue.  I wish there was an altrnative to getting strung out on lyrium, though. 

 

As for what happens when there is no Professor X to run things, well, we've seen what happens.  Both in the southern Circles, where these havens became prisons in all too many cases, and in the Circles of the Imperium, where the mages took over everything.

 

The difficult ywith mages is that, while they are human beings (and elves)  It's possible for them to become monsters.  And thus becomes all to easy for people to think of them as such.  Or to think of them as people when their humanity has been usurped and they become a threat to everyone.

 

Magic in Thedas is truly a case of Blessed With Suck

 

yeah mostly I agree with you. My question is for SojournerX, who I assume wants mage freedom without non-mage oversight.

[Creator Limbs]

I believe circles vary based on who's in charge of the maintenance.

I also believe circles are necessary. As are the Templars.

[Recidiva]

For me Circles are a poor solution to a problem of people.

 

Keeping people in Circles makes them prisons.  Prisons that may be more or less oppressive, but every circle has:

 

1.  Tranquility - lobotomizing

2.  Templars - Prison guards

3.  Harrowing - useless and arbitrary test to determine if you will simply be imprisoned or if you will be lobotomized or murdered.

4.  Rite of Annulment which is basically "Oops, we failed to do our job, now we can kill them all instead of one by one"

 

I would suggest razing them to the ground, training general groups of people in law enforcement to work as Templars, and having those law enforcement folks crack down on abusive mages, the way the Champion did in Kirkwall.

 

You can't define everyone by their potential, but by their actions.  I'd prefer the good mages were out keeping the peace and the bad mages weren't responsible for having the Rite of Annulment called down on everyone at once.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Again, it isn't history's connotation that views them as antagonistic, but pop culture's

It's all Assassin's Creed's fault.

[Shechinah]

*chews popcorn*

 

This is great

[Ryriena]

orz
Must... stick to... word. Resist... smartass... comeback...

I promised I wouldn't argue anymore, but I have to do this much...
*portray

Now I want to know what a "pretray" is. Is it the thing waiters serve stuff on before they bring out the trays?

If you don't understand the difference between pop culture or actual history then we're done here. Since we have brought up real evidence to prove our points like the Muslim accounts or for an exmaple historical facts. You have only brought your opinion on a subject. Yes I was being a smart ass with that comment I do admit to that.

However, stupid auto correction strikes again with the portray thing that's the one thing, I hate about the new ISO eight software for the I phone.

[Aaleel]

Mages in Rivian were free to live outside the circle, see their families and even helped Templars when they were needed.  The city didn't burn down, there no abominations running around everywhere, the non mages weren't enslaved, things pretty much ran without incident.

 

What did the Chantry do, use the Right of Annulment just because they were living outside a Circle.  But the mages are the violent dangerous ones.

 

Circles cause more trouble and create more bad mages then they stop.