222 réponses à ce sujet

[akabane_k]

The best request ever. Gender differences is just a cancer in human kind. There is no reason for assigning differences to genders except for men to destroy women. Even in language. So yeah, if Bioware is up for changing something start getting rid of gender instead of multiplying it. It is not about being man, woman, trans man, tras woman, or gender queer or whatever. Gender is the most basic lie of the self/identity and should cease to exist, since in real life it will take time at least in game we could start the revolution.

 

 

Its getting to the point where I can't tell the difference between trolls and extremists

[AdamJames]

Really? How about no and leaving us alone.

 

Us? Are you a developer? If you are, that's a pretty unprofessional response. If (as I suspect) you're not, why does this person's post bother you? Their request doesn't involve you at all.

[Lord Surinen]

No, I would not like that, not at all. Men are men and women are women, kids are kids and fish swim in the waters. I want them being addressed accordingly with their sex.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Quoting recent documents on how millennia-old grammar conventions are now to be considered sexist does not corroborate the claim that they are sexist. They are, at best, one more voice in the chorus clamoring for politically-motivated language mutilation.

 

What annoys me most about this type of discussion is that extremely worthwhile issues get buried under a heap of diversionary PC crap. We still have serious, real issues with topics such as equal pay (for equal work); recognition of housework in general and child-raising in particular (e.g. w.r.t. old age pensions); female participation in governing bodies etc. (along with similar, mirrored issues on the male side (e.g., health protection in general, suicide rates in particular)). How about we focus on the important stuff first and see where the normal linguistic evolutionary process takes us instead of trying to force change that risks alienating a lot of people? It's never worked before, you know. Language is like water, it finds its own way. Maybe we'll end up with such language in a few decades anyway. I don't know.

IIRC Dragon Age countries and their cultures are designed after high medieval Europe onces plus magic. Orlais is basically France/Venice hybrid of XVI-XVIII centuries, Ferelden is a lot like Britain of the same age. The Church is clearly modelled after the Christian Chirch of the same age with all types of protestants here and there (religious cults, Tevinter church is basically Orthodoxes) and so on.

 

So this exact reference is valid. And feminists should be happy they get out of kitchen with their female Inquisitors - most women didn't have that much freedom.

[katokires]

Quoting recent documents on how millennia-old grammar conventions are now to be considered sexist does not corroborate the claim that they are sexist. They are, at best, one more voice in the chorus clamoring for politically-motivated language mutilation.

 

What annoys me most about this type of discussion is that extremely worthwhile issues get buried under a heap of diversionary PC crap. We still have serious, real issues with topics such as equal pay (for equal work); recognition of housework in general and child-raising in particular (e.g. w.r.t. old age pensions); female participation in governing bodies etc. (along with similar, mirrored issues on the male side (e.g., health protection in general, suicide rates in particular)). How about we focus on the important stuff first and see where the normal linguistic evolutionary process takes us instead of trying to force change that risks alienating a lot of people? It's never worked before, you know. Language is like water, it finds its own way. Maybe we'll end up with such language in a few decades anyway. I don't know.

Sorry but well, do we have a different language for people hair color? Do we have a separate language for people weight? Do we have a different language for people who wake in the morning without an alarm? WHY THE HELL THIS THING CALLED GENDER (which doesn't even exist) SHOULD DEMAND A DIFFERENCE?

Yeah, the millenia old is obvious, the same age as patriarchy... go figure huh?

Differences are only stated to stabilish hierarchy in this case man > woman.

There is no reason for assigning any difference between human beings with XX and XY cromossomes except the ones the nature puts there. I can't even understand how people think it is not opression and it is not cultural... jesus... it is like all beings with vaginas asked to be trated differently and wear dresses, and be more frail and stuuf like that? All of a sudden? Or is it a biological reason? Magic? Yeah perhaps women one day united via skype (like 10.000 years ago) and asked to be different from men, inferior, be slaves, be raped, being explored at home, taking care of babies and so on... yeah, THAT HAPPENED FOR SURE. Through skype... or perhaps ICQ, 10.000 years ago right? Must have been ICQ

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

No, I would not like that, not at all. Men are men and women are women, kids are kids and fish swim in the waters. I want them being addressed accordingly with their sex.

Another great line. Shame I can't like it more than once.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

And yes I know I might look agressive and raged. Because ignorant types like these of the OP are making me that pissed off.

War is going on, people get butchered here and there, demons, undead pouring out of every hole there is in a bloody world and someone gets offended because of being called according to sex?

 

For realsies?

[papercut_ninja]

No, I would not like that, not at all. Men are men and women are women, kids are kids and fish swim in the waters. I want them being addressed accordingly with their sex.

 

Kid and fish are not sexes dear...

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Kid and fish are not sexes dear...

Well judging from my experience some people are still kids in their mid 20s

[actionhero112]

Us? Are you a developer? If you are, that's a pretty unprofessional response. If (as I suspect) you're not, why does this person's post bother you? Their request doesn't involve you at all.

 

Well I mean if Bioware's next game does include gender neutral speech, and it seriously bothers this person, then this request does involve this person.

 

Not that I feel strongly either way on this particular issue, but I do feel strongly about this kind of shame censoring. Everyone should be allowed to at least share their opinion on these things. This is what forums are all about. 

[Warden Inquisitor]

https://www.youtube....h?v=URXvnFnlUeE

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Well I mean if Bioware's next game does include gender neutral speech, and it seriously bothers this person, then this request does involve this person.

 

Not that I feel strongly either way, but I do feel strongly about this kind of shame censoring. Everyone should be allowed to at least share their opinion on these things. This is what forums are all about. 

Next game? Fine. I can live with it.

 

But God no, not this exact Inquision game. It is broken, it needs to be fixed in basic things like bugs and controls... If developers decide to bother themselves with this nonsense we can just uninstall game for the next year... because then it won't be fixed any soon.

[Terodil]

Kid and fish are not sexes dear...

 

lol, I just read that in Vivienne's voice.

 

Meh, sex is as old as life itself, ever since the first cells clumped together and democratically voted on labour division. Gender is a very, very recent consideration. While the natural phenomenon of sex has certainly led to a lot of discrimination, it cannot in any way be decried for having been 'invented for oppression'. That's putting the cart before the horse. Humanity managed to do that, not nature.

 

Also, I just want to underline that I have no problem at all with genderism per se. I would consider myself somewhat gender-challenged. I just don't think that violating linguistics to achieve a political goal is the right way to go about stuff.

 

Edit: Silly me. Horse <--> cart. /sigh

[Warden Inquisitor]

https://www.youtube....h?v=URXvnFnlUeE

[Grieving Natashina]

Good grief. 

That particular post is almost satirical.   

 

 

To the OP:  While I certainly see where you are coming from, I personally think that they did a rather good job this time around.  Some gendered language is understandable, since that goes with the way people talk.  Most languages tend to gender their words to one extent or another and I think to completely remove that would leave the dialogue seeming unnatural.  "Men" (in terms of soldiers and such) is a rather catch-all term, and to be honest, I heard the terms "people" and "the Inquisition" more than anything else.  Bull seems to be the one that calls his crew his men, and it suits the character.

 

 I never thought that being called "Ser/Serrah" sounded like either gender, and the occasional "Lady Cadash" was pretty minimal.  Truth be told I found it more annoying being called "Your Worship" than any other gender-based title.  

 

Please don't get me wrong, as I think the way we use language does have a direct and major impact on the way we think.  Still, BioWare has done an amazing job.  Sure, they could always do better, but I'm picking my battle on this one.   I'm way more concerned about the need for the exaggerated feminine walk (and the awful male gorilla stomp that's just as exaggerated) than I am about some male gendered language here and there.  I think it is something that the writers should take into consideration, but I honestly don't think they'll do much more than that.  

 

I can say with the feminine titles (the Lady Cadash, ect,) it doesn't feel like I'm being talked down to.   That can be the problem with the use of gendered language, but I feel that the writers avoided that very well this time around.   "My lady" is said with the same commanding respect as "My lord," and really, that's all I ask for.  I can understand why it didn't work for you, but I wanted to give my honest feedback with no mockery.  

 

To a few: All men aren't out to destroy all women as a whole due to common language or any other such male-bashing crap that I've seen in this thread so far.  I haven't been posting much lately, but I have been lurking.  Comments like that will go down as one of the dumber things I've read on the DA forums this week.  I think that too much venom has been flung towards men in this thread (and from the sounds of it, straight guys in particular.)  That sounds incredibly sexist to me, and I consider myself something of a feminist.  

 

I completely agree that the use of language and the way it can affect our society is important, but that much blind ignorant hatred isn't the way to get folks to think about this issue.  In fact, that's a wonderful way to get other folks to start ignoring your point.  Even if they agree with you, no one wants to be treated like that.  Knock it off.  

[papercut_ninja]

Wow BSN...I am quite impressed...

 

Not that the thread hasn't had some immaturity and flaming, but considering the vile and horrible aspects of humanity that similar discussions can bring out on youtube or reddit, this is refreshingly civil!

 

Well done everyone for representing the rpg-community in a good light!

[BartDude52]

Why do we have to be so bloody gender-neutral in the first place? Men and women are different, you know? Just because we're equal doesn't mean we're the same.

 

I mean, really, 'Ser'? What's wrong with something as simple as, say, 'Sir' for men, and 'Madam' for women? Would that have really been too much to ask for?

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Why do we have to be so bloody gender-neutral in the first place?

Because some females think they're so special that they should dictate others a lot of things. Like, how to adress them poor beings being opressed.

[Grieving Natashina]

I think of some of it in terms of programming.  It's probably easier to not have to set a flag for gender and use the term "Ser," instead of setting flags for male (Sir) and Female (Ma'am.)  If you notice, the times your character's gender is brought up in the main storyline (i.e outside of companion conversations, but during such times like with Vivienne's salon and your introduction) are very few and far in-between.  

 

It's not something that bothers me though.  There isn't any comments like, "I'm the strongest one here, and I'm a woman" this time around and that shows to me the growth the DA writers have gone through over the last 5+ years since Origins.  I'm not going to dismiss those on either side of this though.  Underneath some of the more hateful comments here and there, I've been reading some decent points from both ends of this debate.

[Saphiron123]

This topic is the dumbest thing in the world...

Jesus.

[Grieving Natashina]

 

This topic is the dumbest thing in the world...

Jesus.

 

 

I take it you haven't been here very long.  

[holdenagincourt]

Wow BSN...I am quite impressed...

 

Not that the thread hasn't had some immaturity and flaming, but considering the vile and horrible aspects of humanity that similar discussions can bring out on youtube or reddit, this is refreshingly civil!

 

Well done everyone for representing the rpg-community in a good light!

 

YouTube and Reddit comment sections shouldn't be the standard for anything, other than perhaps what retrograde cowards will say when they don't have to look in the eye the people they denigrate.

 

And the BSN is an embarrassment as usual when it comes to any sober discussion of social issues.

[BartDude52]

@Natashina: What is wrong exactly with the comment, "I'm the strongest one here, and I'm a woman"? Seems a fairly innocuous statement, if you ask me (though I haven't played Origins in a while, so I don't remember the exact context).

[Grieving Natashina]

@Natashina: What is wrong exactly with the comment, "I'm the strongest one here, and I'm a woman"? Seems a fairly innocuous statement, if you ask me (though I haven't played Origins in a while, so I don't remember the exact context).

I thought it was stupid and out of place.  This was in Ostagar, just before the Joining.  In a setting where women appear to take up nearly as much of an army as men do, it made no sense.  It's not like women warriors are rare, Grey Warden or no.   Especially in Ferelden, the land that boasts the Rebel Queen (the one that started the rebellion against Orlais) as well as being the birthplace of Andraste.    

 

It came off as my PC being superior and haughty towards men for no good reason.  So what if any of them were scared?  In my opinion, fear doesn't make you a coward, inaction in the face of fear does.  That line from the lady Warden seemed rather childish to me.  <shrug>

 

 I only picked that option once, and ignored it after that because I thought it was wrong from several angles.  To each their own though.  I'm not out to be right or wrong on this, just stating an opinion.  

[Terodil]

Natashina, you are out to rob me of all my likes for the day aren't you >.>

 

That is interesting, and a completely different angle than what I expected. Thanks for that. On the one hand, I totally agree with you. On the other hand, I think it was a nice touch to give the GW the option to act in such a manner. Males have no monopoly on being asshats