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I dont think this thread would have gotten as popular as it did if Amelia had have PMed me about it. It most likely would have fallen off the first page by now and dismissed as another rant thread.
If I worked with Amelia I would agree with your points, however, I don't. I purchased a product that she helped to produce, so I think its perfectly reasonable to publicly complain about it when said product doesn't work 30% of the time.
Agreed Penguin. This is PR, not HR. 2 totally different things.
I understand peoples rage, even if I am not angry. I mean... people pay for a smooth experience, which tthey are not getting in lots of cases
It's a LOT deeper than that. Also...with internet and digital distribution if they gave an inkling of a **** they could literally put out a beta or alpha and have fans help them test the game. Even do it to select people they choose and just give them codes or something. Because they do not care then we get what we got on release day and continue to have now. I am supposed to believe their testers are taking up anything but space? You mean to tell me that through all their testing AND GAME DELAY they never figured out the Red Templar Commander doesn't die most of the time? Give me a break. That didn't stop them from charging me $60 $70 for a retail product though.
They literally charged me to be a glorified beta tester...here I am 3-4 MONTHS later in the same boat. I used to be a huge Bioware supporter.....made friends try mass effect and told them they were one of the best devs in the industry. Now I am a liar. I learned my lesson though.
*snip*
Based on your posts in this thread you seem to be a nice guy. We might even be friends. I do, in fact, have a couple friends with whom I mightily disagree about some pretty important things. We have heated debates about it and drink beers afterwards. I consider that to be a sign of a healthy friendship / relationship. Perhaps I can illustrate what the point is through an example:
Lets say you're hanging out with one of your friends who suddenly asks you if you think he looks fat (which he does). What do you do? You could lie to him and tell him he looks fine and is only imagining things. You don't want to hurt his feelings, he's your friend after all. You could also tell him that he looks like a pig and smells like one too, which isn't nice and not very helpful (or friendly). You could also tell him that he used to be in a better shape. Talk about how you like working out in the gym while watching pretty girls getting all sweaty and stuff. Or invite him over for diner (a healthy meal instead of junkfood).
The first option is the worst one (your friend deceives himself thinking he looks fine). The second is slightly better but not really constructive and probably an exaggeration (he'll likely get angry and defensive). The third is the best one. You are honest without being condescending and you present options to deal with the issue. Your friend might never have thought about working out or a diet if you hadn't mentioned it, and even if he wasn't fat at all it would still be a good thing for him to do those things anyway.
Apparently, the folks @ Bioware have become so childish and insecure that they want people to lie to them so they can feel happy about themselves. Even people like Penguin - who has proven himself to be a friend of Bioware, an ally, someone who wants to help make things better or fix broken stuff - is immediately viewed as the enemy because he dared to share his reasonable and evidence-backed opinion about some important stuff that is hurting the game and the community as a whole. I have the utmost respect for people like Penguin and his constructive and informative feedback; I have nothing but contempt for the way Bioware deals with these things.
DE forums were one of the most polite communities that I was member of.
You must not have been there when they changed the Brakk.
There's been a bunch of people in this thread defending the devs, placing blame on the community for the current state of affairs.I don't know who you're referring to, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a single person in this thread who isn't upset at BioWare right now and doesn't want the game fixed.
Been watching this thread for awhile. Not gunna lie, this all seems grossly blown out of proportion by both sides.
@Amelia - There are no "heroes" or "villains." This isn't a movie - it's a public forum. Disagreeing with you doesn't equate to being a "villain" and agreeing with you or apologizing on Biowares behalf doesn't make someone a "hero" either.
@Penguin - Amelia is a fallible human being like everyone else. If I was in her shoes I'd react far stronger to alot of the stuff on this forum, including this thread. You can hardly direct jabs at Amelia in your video and then expect her to respond happily. Considering the dramatic nature of your video, you should actually be surprised she didn't react in a stronger way than she did. You're grossly blowing her post out of proportion. All she did was state her view of you has changed and she thinks it's good you're taking a step back for now. That's literally it. Filing a complaint against her for that will all but ensure that no dev would post again, for fear some hyper-sensitive user would file a complaint against them. Considering the amount of times you've chastised people for acting antagonistically towards the devs, I'd expect you to know better yourself.
@Everyone else - It isn't Amelia's job to respond to forum posts. Amelia at no point claimed to be representative of EA/Bioware or its views in this thread, she merely stated her opinion as a forum user. Just because you don't like her opinion, that isn't an excuse to attack her. It's easy to become frustrated with the state of the game, but getting angry at the devs really won't do much to change that. [This coming from me.] Trying to get Amelia fired or forwarding a complaint because she made one polite post standing against this video is childish and toxic, to say the least.
There's been a bunch of people in this thread defending the devs, placing blame on the community for the current state of affairs.
Reread the whole thread and count how many times you see people say "...and you expect a Bioware employee to post here after you guys were mean to them..."
Mean...blunt...call it what you will.
Fact remains, we are paying customers, who are disatisfied with a broken product, and are basically being told to go **** ourselves.
Name one other industry where this kind of behaviour would fly. Heads would roll within days, if not hours.
Most of us have jobs where we put up with WAAAY more crap than any of these devs ever deal with deal with. And if we reacted half as childishly as Bioware has, we would be out on the street in a heart beat.
The gaming "industry" is a ****ing joke. They already have or money, so why give a ****.
Both sides need to do better. Any official BioWare poster needs to be more diplomatic, and the community needs to work at being less toxic. The OP has actually done a fairly good job at being constructive, but other people not so much.
My stance has always been that Amelia was out of line, but that considering it is voluntary for an actual developer to post here I wouldn't blame the others for not wanting to put up with our crap. If they set up a dedicated community team then yeah, they should have to put up with our crap while still being polite because that's their job. That's what they're being paid to do.
but then a lot of the BSN likes following the mentality that if I don't completely 100% agree with you then I am against you and am defending whatever you're criticizing. There apparently isn't much room for middle ground around here.
Been watching this thread for awhile. Not gunna lie, this all seems grossly blown out of proportion by both sides.
@Amelia - There are no "heroes" or "villains." This isn't a movie - it's a public forum. Disagreeing with you doesn't equate to being a "villain" and agreeing with you or apologizing on Biowares behalf doesn't make someone a "hero" either.
@Penguin - Amelia is a fallible human being like everyone else. If I was in her shoes I'd react far stronger to alot of the stuff on this forum, including this thread. You can hardly direct jabs at Amelia in your video and then expect her to respond happily. Considering the dramatic nature of your video, you should actually be surprised she didn't react in a stronger way than she did. You're grossly blowing her post out of proportion. All she did was state her view of you has changed and she thinks it's good you're taking a step back for now. That's literally it. Filing a complaint against her for that will all but ensure that no dev would post again, for fear some hyper-sensitive user would file a complaint against them. Considering the amount of times you've chastised people for acting antagonistically towards the devs, I'd expect you to know better yourself.
@Everyone else - It isn't Amelia's job to respond to forum posts. Amelia at no point claimed to be representative of EA/Bioware or its views in this thread, she merely stated her opinion as a forum user. Just because you don't like her opinion, that isn't an excuse to attack her. It's easy to become frustrated with the state of the game, but getting angry at the devs really won't do much to change that. [This coming from me.] Trying to get Amelia fired or forwarding a complaint because she made one polite post standing against this video is childish and toxic, to say the least.
You are missing the bigger picture. This isn't just an EA or Bioware thing, this is how the entire gaming industry treats people. It's a shoot first ask questions later mentality. They want to churn these games out as fast as they can and the work suffers and is full of problems which is then passed on to the customers. When a developer can sit there and say "We ****ed this up but we'll fix it" we won't be so angry, but I will be long dead and gone before any of them can take responsibility for screwing up.
You are missing the bigger picture. This isn't just an EA or Bioware thing, this is how the entire gaming industry treats people. It's a shoot first ask questions later mentality. They want to churn these games out as fast as they can and the work suffers and is full of problems which is then passed on to the customers. When a developer can sit there and say "We ****ed this up but we'll fix it" we won't be so angry, but I will be long dead and gone before any of them can take responsibility for screwing up.
Directing your frustrations at the gaming industry on Amelia or Bioware is misplaced. This isn't about a "bigger picture," it's a single dev post on a single e-drama thread. There are valid concerns with the way alot of modern developers rush their games, that isn't strictly related to any one thread or forum though. We don't know what the situation is at Bioware, but if we want a positive community with a strong line of communication with the devs leading a witch hunt isn't the way to go about it.
Both sides need to do better. Any official BioWare poster needs to be more diplomatic, and the community needs to work at being less toxic. The OP has actually done a fairly good job at being constructive, but other people not so much.
My stance has always been that Amelia was out of line, but that considering it is voluntary for an actual developer to post here I wouldn't blame the others for not wanting to put up with our crap. If they set up a dedicated community team then yeah, they should have to put up with our crap while still being polite because that's their job. That's what they're being paid to do.
but then a lot of the BSN likes following the mentality that if I don't completely 100% agree with you then I am against you and am defending whatever you're criticizing. There apparently isn't much room for middle ground around here.
@Everyone else - It isn't Amelia's job to respond to forum posts. Amelia at no point claimed to be representative of EA/Bioware or its views in this thread, she merely stated her opinion as a forum user.
No. That is 100% wrong.
When you post from a company account with a company identifier in your name, you ARE representing your company.
Directing your frustrations at the gaming industry on Amelia or Bioware is misplaced. This isn't about a "bigger picture," it's a single dev post on a single e-drama thread. There are valid concerns with the way alot of modern developers rush their games, that isn't strictly related to any one thread or forum though. We don't know what the situation is at Bioware, but if we want a positive community with a strong line of communication with the devs leading a witch hunt isn't the way to go about it.
Just because some misguided people are leading the Amelia witch hunt doesn't mean it is the majority. If you think it is all e-drama directed at one person, you aren't paying attention. We can form a pretty good picture about the Bioware situation, because it is the same across the board. Just because we don't work for the company doesn't mean we don't have an idea of what happens. Business is business is business. It's very obvious why we are where we are. What we want is for a developer to finally step up and be accountable, to show some respect to their customers. I don't want to hear this "respect them first" we paid for a product and a service that we aren't getting and are being lied to about it, or they tell us to go find a different hobby. That is not how you treat customers, and if you don't want to please customers, get a new job.
Both sides need to do better. Any official BioWare poster needs to be more diplomatic, and the community needs to work at being less toxic. The OP has actually done a fairly good job at being constructive, but other people not so much.
Toxic? Oh, you mean like when you accused other people of wanting Amelia's head on a pike when none of us said anything of the sort?
In case you forgot:
So my understanding of this is that a BioWare employee thought they'd try and get some dialogue going with the community even though they didn't need to, and wasn't quite up to the task and said a number of things they shouldn't have and now people are calling for her head on a spike.
Hyperbolic lies like the above is what I consider toxic. What I see when people rightly state that the game is in a bad state are simply stating their grievances which are real and, which of course are not being addressed. If people can't handle criticism of their work then how are they supposed to learn and fix things?
My stance has always been that Amelia was out of line, but that considering it is voluntary for an actual developer to post here I wouldn't blame the others for not wanting to put up with our crap. If they set up a dedicated community team then yeah, they should have to put up with our crap while still being polite because that's their job. That's what they're being paid to do.
No one said she has to put up with our crap. If she can't be more mature and won't at least tell Penguin she was wrong, she can just please stop posting and it would be better for the company, for the employees, and for the players.
but then a lot of the BSN likes following the mentality that if I don't completely 100% agree with you then I am against you and am defending whatever you're criticizing. There apparently isn't much room for middle ground around here.
Your vagueness does your avatar justice. There is a middle ground here. It's called understand that as an employee of a company, you must practice restraint and not go on an ad hominem bonanza upon probably one of the most dedicated fans of the game.
Seriously everyone, we all need to shut up and play nice or Bioware won't communicate with us.
Wait a thought occured to me..... we aren't preschool children. A lot of us are adults with jobs and families. Is it really so much to ask for a bit of respect from the companies that we choose to buy product from? I mean we get a reply from you Amelia, and your first line is a shot at Penguin? Gaming developers have started to act like they are better than the masses that they sell their product to, and I don't get it. If I ever spoke to customers at my job that way, you better believe I'd be hearing about it.
It seems like Biowares stance on not communicating with us is that we are too angry and juvenile and now we'll never mend that fence, pretty good scape goat. Wait until you provide us with false information or just decide we don't need any information, and when there is back lash just blame us for the whole thing. If you honestly communicated with your customers, we wouldn't be where we are. It's pretty insulting. We would never be this upset if you gave us some respect. You can say that Bioware employees aren't being respected but guess what, that is a small group, not all of us act that way. To just cut off communication to everyone for that is ridiculous. Another thought has occured, you aren't preschool children either!! You can talk with us while ignoring the ignorant people, besides it's the internet, who cares if some people on a forum are jerks, that's life, get over it.
Stop disrespecting your customer base!
No one has ever expressed my feelings so well.
Thank you.
No. That is 100% wrong.
When you post from a company account with a company identifier in your name, you ARE representing your company.
Just because some misguided people are leading the Amelia witch hunt doesn't mean it is the majority. If you think it is all e-drama directed at one person, you aren't paying attention. We can form a pretty good picture about the Bioware situation, because it is the same across the board. Just because we don't work for the company doesn't mean we don't have an idea of what happens. Business is business is business. It's very obvious why we are where we are. What we want is for a developer to finally step up and be accountable, to show some respect to their customers. I don't want to hear this "respect them first" we paid for a product and a service that we aren't getting and are being lied to about it, or they tell us to go find a different hobby. That is not how you treat customers, and if you don't want to please customers, get a new job.
No. That is 100% wrong.
When you post from a company account with a company identifier in your name, you ARE representing your company.
True and false.
Say for example, X employee states 'I am a proud supporter of the Republican political party' on their own personal twitter. This does not mean that EA or Bioware is a GOP supporter. The statement does not reflect EA or Biowares views. Its a personal view.
If X employee is using social media to mock the customers of the company they are working for, then you can expect users to respond as if the company itself had posted it on its official twitter.
In my contract, there is a clause which states that I cannot post anything relating to the company on my own personal social media accounts for this exact reason. If you work for a company and you post things relating to said company, then you are inadvertently representing the company.
Her opinions are her own. She has already stated clearly that it isn't her job to post on the forums - she doesn't get paid for it. Therefore she isn't representing the company, nor is the company representing her, as there is no transaction between the two with regards to Amelias presence on the forums. It is entirely her posting as a fellow person, which is her status when she is not at work. As Bioware is not paying her to post on the forums, they are in no way acknowledging or being represented by Amelia.
It is not a developers job to please customers. They are employed to make a game. If you read Amelia's reply you'll find it was perfectly respectable. If you are genuinely offended by what Amelia has said then I don't know how you're even surviving in the modern world. I don't agree with alot of her posts, but she is not responsible for the state of DA:I, nor should she be held accountable for it. Expecting Amelia or any other Bioware dev to take accountability for work they didn't do is beyond insanity. Instead, you should be asking that the devs have a more open and honest line of communication with us, rather than trying to find a scapegoat for your grievances.
So if Amelia, or any other Bioware dev does not have to step up and take responsibility for the current state of THEIR PRODUCT!!!...who is supposed to take responsibility???
Are we, the customers, responsible for selling a broken game, and then failing to fix it?
Maybe it's Obama's fault, or maybe the Easter Bunny?
If you think the only factor in a games release state is the developers then you're ignoring the facts. Regardless, there is absolutely nothing to be gained from generating a witch-hunt and demanding a scapegoat for the games issues. That will not fix the game. Nor will it promote developer interaction - quite the opposite. There is quite the difference between asking for honest communication with developers and leading witch-hunts for individuals and trying to get them fired for daring to post on a thread.
I never thought the day would come where I'd be an apologist compared to everyone else. The irony.
So if Amelia, or any other Bioware dev does not have to step up and take responsibility for the current state of THEIR PRODUCT!!!...who is supposed to take responsibility???
Are we, the customers, responsible for selling a broken game, and then failing to fix it?
Maybe it's Obama's fault, or maybe the Easter Bunny?
/sarcasm on
YOU ARE BEING TOXIC!!!!!
Instead, you should be asking that the devs have a more open and honest line of communication with us, rather than trying to find a scapegoat for your grievances.
That is what I have been asking this entire time.....................
Toxic? Oh, you mean like when you accused other people of wanting Amelia's head on a pike when none of us said anything of the sort?
In case you forgot:
Hyperbolic lies like the above is what I consider toxic. What I see when people rightly state that the game is in a bad state are simply stating their grievances which are real and, which of course are not being addressed. If people can't handle criticism of their work then how are they supposed to learn and fix things?
It's a figure of speech, used because people are going after a very specific person. It's not hyperbole when the OP said that they filed a complaint(keep in mind that I'm not saying they're either right or wrong for doing so, merely that they did it. I'm not getting into that debate).
At no point have I ever claimed that criticism is itself toxic. I had thought it was fairly obvious that by toxic I meant people on these forums not being constructive about it, but I guess I should have clarified.
No one said she has to put up with our crap. If she can't be more mature and won't at least tell Penguin she was wrong, she can just please stop posting and it would be better for the company, for the employees, and for the players.
Your vagueness does your avatar justice. There is a middle ground here. It's called understand that as an employee of a company, you must practice restraint and not go on an ad hominem bonanza upon probably one of the most dedicated fans of the game.
That was in response to somebody who made the claim about people defending BioWare by using the "well if you're gonna be mean don't expect more posts". I was clarifying what I meant by what I had said earlier for them.
I've made my points fairly clear here: Amelia was in the wrong with her comments, and if we want other developers in the future to voluntarily post here we should work at being less toxic. Otherwise, BioWare should just set up a dedicated community team that can't really talk to us as developers or help with technical issues.
The only thing I'm being vague about is which "side" I'm on, because i'm not anybody's side.
If you think the only factor in a games release state is the developers then you're ignoring the facts. Regardless, there is absolutely nothing to be gained from generating a witch-hunt and demanding a scapegoat for the games issues. That will not fix the game. Nor will it promote developer interaction - quite the opposite. There is quite the difference between asking for honest communication with developers and leading witch-hunts for individuals and trying to get them fired for daring to post on a thread.
I never thought the day would come where I'd be an apologist compared to everyone else. The irony.
I am seriously doubting you have even read everything in this thread.
None of us think it is all Bioware, I have said many many times I suspect EA pushing deadlines and Bioware not having a choice.
We don't want a scape goat, a lot of us feel they pinned our reaction in the forums as the reason why they won't communicate. They turned us into a scape goat, we just want accountability.
We don't want anyone fired, we just want respect, we want accountability and we want proper service for the game we paid money for.
That is what I have been asking this entire time.....................
As have I for several months. But this thread is in no way conducive to that end, nor is the e-drama. If the devs were skeptical about posting before, having users attempt to spitefully fire them is one sure-fire way to ensure they never post here. This thread has single-handedly damaged any chance this community had of a more positive interaction with the devs. There's a difference between criticizing a product and criticizing a person behind it. Penguin and many posters here have sincerely crossed that line. I'm genuinely surprised the thread isn't locked yet.
There is quite the difference between asking for honest communication with developers and leading witch-hunts for individuals and trying to get them fired for daring to post on a thread.
Could you point me to a single comment where anybody has tried to get anyone fired?
I filed a complaint based on the fact that Amelia personally insulted me (by labeling me a villain).
The thread hasn't been locked because it doesn't break any rules. I haven't attacked anybody (I didn't mention anybody by name in my video, I merely posted screenshots) and I certainly haven't been calling for someone to be sacked.
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