413 réponses à ce sujet

[BeardyMcGoo]

 

Toxic? Oh, you mean like when you accused other people of wanting Amelia's head on a pike when none of us said anything of the sort?

 

In case you forgot: 

 

 

Hyperbolic lies like the above is what I consider toxic. What I see when people rightly state that the game is in a bad state are simply stating their grievances which are real and, which of course are not being addressed. If people can't handle criticism of their work then how are they supposed to learn and fix things?

 

 

No one said she has to put up with our crap. If she can't be more mature and won't at least tell Penguin she was wrong, she can just please stop posting and it would be better for the company, for the employees, and for the players.

 

 

Your vagueness does your avatar justice. There is a middle ground here. It's called understand that as an employee of a company, you must practice restraint and not go on an ad hominem bonanza upon probably one of the most dedicated fans of the game.

 

I don't know what you're doing with your posts, but a lot of them are showing as light grey text on white background and they're almost impossible to read.

[Storm_Changer]

I am seriously doubting you have even read everything in this thread.

 

None of us think it is all Bioware, I have said many many times I suspect EA pushing deadlines and Bioware not having a choice.

 

We don't want a scape goat, a lot of us feel they pinned our reaction in the forums as the reason why they won't communicate. They turned us into a scape goat, we just want accountability.

 

We don't want anyone fired, we just want respect, we want accountability and we want proper service for the game we paid money for.

 

That was replying to a different user, not you. That user is squarely putting the blame on the devs rather than the other factors we don't know about. 

 

There is clear sentiment against Amelia - including in the OPs video. Trying to get her fired for having an opinion is a sure-fire way to ensure the devs won't be posting here again. Penguin clearly has a chip on his shoulder with regards to Amelia, as do some other users here. 

 

I get the sentiment - I think the reason the forums are so negative is due to a lack of solid communication with the devs. But trying to scapegoat any dev in particular is not the way to go about opening a genuine dialogue. If we want them to communicate with us, basic rules of respect need to be adhered to. And that involves the developers feeling like they can state what they feel without any hyper-sensitive users trying to get them in trouble for it. 

[DrKilledbyDeath]

As have I for several months. But this thread is in no way conducive to that end, nor is the e-drama. If the devs were skeptical about posting before, having users attempt to spitefully fire them is one sure-fire way to ensure they never post here. This thread has single-handedly damaged any chance this community had of a more positive interaction with the devs. There's a difference between criticizing a product and criticizing a person behind it. Penguin and many posters here have sincerely crossed that line. I'm genuinely surprised the thread isn't locked yet. 

When you supply people a product, you better stand by the damn thing and if you don't, there will be backlash. Honestly, the more you post the more you seem like some out of touch teenager who has 0 idea of how the world works. If a bank had an issue where 30% of the time you can't use your debit to pay for something, and we went for answers and ther response was to tell us to take our money somewhere else and never speak to us again how do you think it would go over? I'd say they would be killed by the media and either go out of business or change their tune. Why is the gaming industry held to a different standard? It's ridiculous.

[veramis]

It's a figure of speech, used because people are going after a very specific person. It's not hyperbole when the OP said that they filed a complaint(keep in mind that I'm not saying they're either right or wrong for doing so, merely that they did it. I'm not getting into that debate).

 

 

The OP has actually done a fairly good job at being constructive, but other people not so much.

 

Oh, ok. So the OP is both calling for Amelia's head and is doing a good job being constructive. While "other people" are not "being constructive". Very constructive on your part. I hope you don't construct homes for a living.

 

At no point have I ever claimed that criticism is itself toxic. I had thought it was fairly obvious that by toxic I meant people on these forums not being constructive about it, but I guess I should have clarified.

 

 

What is there more for us to construct? Have you not seen the many threads and posts about bugs and design flaws, many of which I have made, in the hopes of things getting better. I don't find YOUR post constructive. You criticize everyone except the OP when you say the OP is doing a good job being constructive  "but other people not so much". What right have you to use words like that without directly addressing exactly what you mean? You just slander us personally without citing anything which are supposedly not constructive in our posts. Maybe it is just you who is not constructive.

 

That was in response to somebody who made the claim about people defending BioWare by using the "well if you're gonna be mean don't expect more posts". I was clarifying what I meant by what I had said earlier for them.

 

Again, no one said that it is the programmers' job to deal with anything. What you were responding to was someone saying that the developers have to put up with a lot less sh*t than in other industries, and he is correct. Because it is NOT the job of the developers to substitute as community managers. They are not in any way obligated to post on forums. If they choose to interact with other people, then they have a human responsibility to be civil.

 

I've made my points fairly clear here: Amelia was in the wrong with her comments, and if we want other developers in the future to voluntarily post here we should work at being less toxic. Otherwise, BioWare should just set up a dedicated community team that can't really talk to us as developers or help with technical issues.

 

 

Again with toxic. I don't want bioware employees to post here if what they plan on posting is toxic stuff like what Amelia has posted. If they post things like what Senior Tester Derek recently did in a thread, very civilly and helpful to people, then they have my respect. And no I'm not going to make a post praising them for actually posting, because people in the gaming industry need to understand that silence IS praise.

 

The only thing I'm being vague about is which "side" I'm on, because i'm not anybody's side.

 

 

You're on the side that's fighting strawmen. That's all I know.

[Shadohz]

The only thing I'm being vague about is which "side" I'm on, because i'm not anybody's side.

I'm picking a side... my side, which is bug-fixes first, enhancements last.

 

 

It is not a developers job to please customers. 

I'm guessing you don't work in the software industry or else you'd know that was far from true. I can't tell you the number of team meetings I had where I lost automation/manual programming and testing time because someone upper management decided to play kiss-@$$ with a high-value client. The throw off your entire development cycle by a two or more weeks then you have the whole customer base up your behind because you fell behind schedule.

 

 

 

Amelia says she's sorry.
 

BWEAmelia, on 21 Jan 2015 - 2:48 PM, said:

 

 

Penguin says he's sorry.

Now if I get anymore trouble out of you two then I'm going to make you stand in a corner wearing one of those big T-shirts and make you hug it out. I'll send copies to both Reddit and BW Studios. Don't let this happen to you:

[-PenguinFetish-]

There is clear sentiment against Amelia - including in the OPs video. Trying to get her fired for having an opinion is a sure-fire way to ensure the devs won't be posting here again. Penguin clearly has a chip on his shoulder with regards to Amelia, as do some other users here. 

 

I get the sentiment - I think the reason the forums are so negative is due to a lack of solid communication with the devs. But trying to scapegoat any dev in particular is not the way to go about opening a genuine dialogue. If we want them to communicate with us, basic rules of respect need to be adhered to. And that involves the developers feeling like they can state what they feel without any hyper-sensitive users trying to get them in trouble for it. 

 

Oh really? Because I never mentioned Amelia once by name. I posted screenshots and said they were from bioware. 

 

Again, please link me to the post where I tried to get anyone fired. Because I am telling you that it doesn't exist. I have maintained throughout this thread that I do not want anybody to be fired. I submitted a complaint because being branded a villain by someone speaking on behalf of a multi billion dollar company is not professional behavior.  

[Storm_Changer]

@Penguin
 

If I spoke like this to one of my clients, id be fired on the spot no question (I work in the community myself).

 

Perhaps some people do need to get fired, to har examples made out of them. It's seems like too much of the gaming industry treats their jobs like government jobs...in that there's basically nothing you can do (aside from harassing a coworker) to be fired.

 

You believe what she has said is noteworthy enough to get someone fired. And you have reported her. That would suggest you believe doing so would get her fired. Edit: I'll reiterate - it isn't her job to post on the forums. She is not paid to do this. You can claim she is representing the company - legally she isn't. That's simply a fact. Her personal conduct should not be dragged in front of her employer in an attempt to get her in trouble. I'm genuinely appauled that you of all people think that is the way to go about things. 

 

It's none of our business that you filed a complaint against Amelia. You shouldn't have pointed it out, it's a personal matter between the two of you. Taking pot shots at her and being surprised when she fires back is ridiculous. Trying to publicly vilify her is already going too far - reporting her is pathetic. You made a video quoting her and got hyper-offended when she had the audacity to reply pointing out - correctly - that you've grossly misinterpreted what she said and pulled it out of context. If you honestly think getting called a villain is offensive then I honestly don't know what to tell you. 

 

Further edit: It's disingenuous to claim your screenshots are from Bioware. They are from an employee - in her spare time - not representing the company in any formal or legal capacity. To claim otherwise is to flat out lie. Amelia's posts are not from Bioware - they are from a forum user. If she was being paid to post here, that would be another matter entirely, but she isn't. 

[Geth Supremacy]

I think hes just trolling you Penguin.  No way hes that dense....well he may really be, but either way its of little importance.

 

I don't think it was right to file a complaint against her if you did though.  I don't agree with that at all.

[Robbiesan]

Now if I get anymore trouble out of you two then I'm going to make you stand in a corner wearing one of those big T-shirts and make you hug it out. I'll send copies to both Reddit and BW Studios. Don't let this happen to you:

 

 

If that's a Toronto Maple Leafs jersey, I think that just made the situation worse.

[BeardyMcGoo]

If that's a Toronto Maple Leafs jersey, I think that just made the situation worse.

Funny, but it's an Indianapolis Colts jersey.

[-PenguinFetish-]

@Penguin
 

 

 

You believe what she has said is noteworthy enough to get someone fired. And you have reported her. That would suggest you believe doing so would get her fired. 

 

It's none of our business that you filed a complaint against Amelia. You shouldn't have pointed it out, it's a personal matter between the two of you. Taking pot shots at her and being surprised when she fires back is ridiculous. Trying to publicly vilify her is already going too far - reporting her is pathetic. You made a video quoting her and got hyper-offended when she had the audacity to reply pointing out - correctly - that you've grossly misinterpreted what she said and pulled it out of context. If you honestly think getting called a villain is offensive then I honestly don't know what to tell you. 

 

I was stating a fact. If I publicly ridiculed one of my clients, I would be sacked on the spot, plain and simple. Amelia doesn't work for my company so the rules that apply there do not apply to her. 

 

Again, in my video, I posted screenshots and stated that they were from official bioware accounts. You know, because they are. Hence the big blue 'BIOWARE' logo underneath the username.

 

I find it offensive when it comes from the mouth of someone speaking on behalf of a multi billion dollar company, because that carries a lot more weight than some 12 year old on the internet. If you cant understand this then I really don't know what to tell you either.

[Storm_Changer]

I was stating a fact. If I publicly ridiculed one of my clients, I would be sacked on the spot, plain and simple. Amelia doesn't work for my company so the rules that apply there do not apply to her. 

 

Again, in my video, I posted screenshots and stated that they were from official bioware accounts. 

 

I find it offensive when it comes from the mouth of someone speaking on behalf of a multi billion dollar company, because that carries a lot more weight than some 12 year old on the internet. If you cant understand this then I really don't know what to tell you either.

 

An official Bioware account that is in no way representing Bioware in any capacity. Amelia is not the mouth of EA or Bioware - she is only representing her own views. That is a fact. You may choose to not accept it, but that is quite simply the truth of the matter. Amelia has no official weighting on the forums as she is not paid to post on them or manage the community. Therefore, her posts can only be seen as her own opinion - which is exactly what they are. You trying to get her in trouble with her company - which is exactly what you're doing - is malicious. She has already made it clear - MANY times - that she is in no way obliged or supported by her employer to post on the forums. She is not an official mouthpiece for EA or Bioware. She is not responsible for public relations and nor should she be. 

 

I don't care what you find offensive. If you're offended with what Amelia said, PM her like an adult, rather than trying to get her in trouble with her employer and publicly vilifying her. 

[Anzer]

If that's a Toronto Maple Leafs jersey, I think that just made the situation worse.

Nah, that's a Colts jersey.

[Bocochoco]

Some very sneaky editing to make my posts fit your viewpoint! As always, context is key, and there's a lot of context missing around the things you've posted ( I recommend following @AndrastesTits on Twitter, by the way, she's hilarious ).
 
Honestly, this video is solid evidence that these forums don't really want dev interaction or communication. When I joined the forum it was because I saw cries for these very things, and I thought I would help. What I quickly realized, however, is that whenever someone sticks their neck out in the forum there are a thousand swords to fall on it regardless of the content of the post. There is this very confusing cognitive dissonance where it seems this community wants interaction and communication, but pushes back fiercely when they actually receive it. A number of users on the BSN turn this space into a hostile, inhospitable environment, and asking why the developers don't interact is strange - the answer is well known. I will say - There are a number of wonderful, helpful community members in these forums whom I really appreciate. Its unfortunate that the people who are behaving poorly get so much attention.
 
I'm honestly disappointed things went this way, with you especially Penguin. You so quickly turned from a hero into a villain. I'm sorry that you didn't get what you wanted from me. I'm happy that you're taking what seems like a much needed break. Its going to be a good year for MP, there's a lot of awesome stuff coming down the pipe, and if you decide to check in in a few months I know you'll be pleasantly surprised.
 
Be Excellent to Eachother
 
Thanks,
Amelia

I have to be 100% honest here Amelia
I haven't been here long and I don't know you so this is as much of a non-biased suggestion as you will recieve.
EA is a public company and has been sued by the shareholders in the past for poor performance issues due to promised features either not working properly or not existing at all.
The shareholders will eventually find out about your response and for your own sake if you are paid to do this as an employee of EA then I would highly suggest you start looking for another career option.
I work in the customer service industry and I would not be protected for very long if the shareholders of my company got wind of my actions if they were in any way similar to this one.

[Waukeen25]

Yes you can. I spoke to a very nice EA rep today to make a complaint against the comments against myself and this community and I strongly urge you to do the same. 

 

In the words of Martin Prince: 'Individually we are weak, like a single twig, but as a bundle we form a mighty ******'.

 

 

I should have recorded this but I just got off the phone with someone from EA and they looked through this thread and a couple others that BWEAmelia has posted to and are going to be bringing this up with her supervisor and their supervisor.  As I said I am done biting my tongue with regards to her.  Thanks for giving me the idea.

 

Funny part is the person I talked to was the same person I talked to back in November when my save games got corrupted for no reason what so ever making me have to go back about 4-10 hours so that I could keep playing SP campaign.  Thanks for the help Brandon.

[-PenguinFetish-]

An official Bioware account that is in no way representing Bioware in any capacity. 

 

[Storm_Changer]

 
Official in so much that it says "Bioware" - but not legally representing Biowares views on the forums which Amelia has made perfectly clear. Again, keep playing dumb. The facts are on the table, even if you don't want to acknowledge them.

Edit: For the sake of clarity as you do so love taking things out of context:

An official Bioware account that is in no way representing Bioware in any capacity. Amelia is not the mouth of EA or Bioware - she is only representing her own views. That is a fact. You may choose to not accept it, but that is quite simply the truth of the matter. Amelia has no official weighting on the forums as she is not paid to post on them or manage the community.

[wolfhowwl]

With Chris Priestly and Jessica Merizan gone, does BioWare not have a community manager now?

[-PenguinFetish-]

With Chris Priestly and Jessica Merizan gone, does BioWare not have a community manager now?

 

Veramis stepped in but he only lasted 5 hours before he resigned.

[Anzer]

I should have recorded this but I just got off the phone with someone from EA and they looked through this thread and a couple others that BWEAmelia has posted to and are going to be bringing this up with her supervisor and their supervisor.  As I said I am done biting my tongue with regards to her.  Thanks for giving me the idea.

 

Funny part is the person I talked to was the same person I talked to back in November when my save games got corrupted for no reason what so ever making me have to go back about 4-10 hours so that I could keep playing SP campaign.  Thanks for the help Brandon.

 

Truly Gandhi would be proud of you.

[veramis]

I don't care what you find offensive. If you're offended with what Amelia said, PM her like an adult, rather than trying to get her in trouble with her employer and publicly vilifying her. 

 

And why didn't Amelia PM Penguin with her rude comments instead of making it public?

 

Anyway before I go for the night, I'm gonna stress it again, an employee must always keep in mind that if they speak in an official company forum, they have to practice restraint, which she obviously did not. No one said anything about trying to get her fired, and any such claims is especially laughable because at the end of the day the bigwigs are the ones who have to decide whether or not there might be any sort of punishment for bad behavior. Hahaha... you are such a comedian... my opinion of EA corporate commander's business decisions is very low, but he's not so feeble-minded that he can be mentally dominated by some complaining customers and coerced into sacking programmers with some complaints filed through EA support.

 

If you think Penguin is shaking the very foundation of the world and may cause the next great depression by making use of the EA support live chat, you are the one who needs to do some self-reflection, not Penguin.

[Storm_Changer]

I think Amelia has an entitlement complex because she is a girl in the gaming industry.
 
Go ahead and call me sexist, that's like calling me racist for saying that Muslim on the plane could be a suicide bomber.  The fact remains that if there IS a suicide bomber on that plane, he is most likely to be the one.
 
PLOT TWIST:  He may not even be a girl at all.  It could be a persona put on to attempt better relations with the community.  In that case, it didn't work.

Okay: You're being sexist. This has nothing to do with Amelias gender. You bringing her gender into this and attacking her on the basis of her gender is being sexist by definition. Please show me the statistic stating female developers are more likely to have an entitlement complex, I'd love to see your data.

[Bocochoco]

I should have recorded this but I just got off the phone with someone from EA and they looked through this thread and a couple others that BWEAmelia has posted to and are going to be bringing this up with her supervisor and their supervisor.  As I said I am done biting my tongue with regards to her.  Thanks for giving me the idea.
 
Funny part is the person I talked to was the same person I talked to back in November when my save games got corrupted for no reason what so ever making me have to go back about 4-10 hours so that I could keep playing SP campaign.  Thanks for the help Brandon.

How can her supervisor be spoken to if she APPARENTLY does it for free?

[TheOgre]

Veramis stepped in but he only lasted 5 hours before he resigned.

My hard ball questions and inappropriate memes might have had a play in that..

[Bocochoco]

Okay: You're being sexist. This has nothing to do with Amelias gender. You bringing her gender into this and attacking her on the basis of her gender is being sexist by definition. Please show me the statistic stating female developers are more likely to have an entitlement complex, I'd love to see your data.

At my main public relations facility they have hired an alt lesbian gender nuetral to do company tours in order to promote multiculturalism within the facility. This is not conjecture as it was told to me by the general manager who hired her. Not saying this is the case yet it is not entirely implausible