413 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyonan]

Oh, ok. So the OP is both calling for Amelia's head and is doing a good job being constructive. While "other people" are not "being constructive". Very constructive on your part. I hope you don't construct homes for a living.

 

 

What is there more for us to construct? Have you not seen the many threads and posts about bugs and design flaws, many of which I have made, in the hopes of things getting better. I don't find YOUR post constructive. You criticize everyone except the OP when you say the OP is doing a good job being constructive  "but other people not so much". What right have you to use words like that without directly addressing exactly what you mean? You just slander us personally without citing anything which are supposedly not constructive in our posts. Maybe it is just you who is not constructive.

 

I said the OP has done a "fairly good" job of it. If I wanted to call them perfect in it, I would have used the word perfect instead. They've been quite constructive in this thread, but they did file the complaint which I'd say falls under my figure of speech.

 

I have every right to use the words "other people not so much" as there is no implication that I mean everybody else.

 

but since I evidently need to point out the obvious: I am talking about when people call the QA team incompetent or say that BioWare doesn't care because they already have your money. Those kinds of statements don't do anything but insult others. Pointing out bugs or listing the reasons why you think a certain design decision doesn't work is a constructive thread and not part of the problem. I have never said they were a problem.

 

 

Again, no one said that it is the programmers' job to deal with anything. What you were responding to was someone saying that the developers have to put up with a lot less sh*t than in other industries, and he is correct. Because it is NOT the job of the developers to substitute as community managers. They are not in any way obligated to post on forums. If they choose to interact with other people, then they have a human responsibility to be civil.

 

Again with toxic. I don't want bioware employees to post here if what they plan on posting is toxic stuff like what Amelia has posted. If they post things like what Senior Tester Derek recently did in a thread, very civilly and helpful to people, then they have my respect. And no I'm not going to make a post praising them for actually posting, because people in the gaming industry need to understand that silence IS praise.

 

and I'm not disagreeing that they should be civil. What I'm saying is that if we do want programmers around here then some people of the community should take up those human responsibilities to be civil too because, you know, it's great when we can talk with the people who actually work on the game even though it's not their job.

 

but then from where I'm sitting you seem to be determined to take everything I say in the worst possible way, so I suspect this is only useful as long as it is amusing.

[Storm_Changer]

And why didn't Amelia PM Penguin with her rude comments instead of making it public?
 
Anyway before I go for the night, I'm gonna stress it again, an employee must always keep in mind that if they speak in an official company forum, they have to practice restraint, which she obviously did not. No one said anything about trying to get her fired, and any such claims is especially laughable because at the end of the day the bigwigs are the ones who have to decide whether or not there might be any sort of punishment for bad behavior. Hahaha... you are such a comedian... my opinion of EA corporate commander's business decisions is very low, but he's not so feeble-minded that he can be mentally dominated by some complaining customers and coerced into sacking programmers with some complaints filed through EA support.
 
If you think Penguin is shaking the very foundation of the world and may cause the next great depression by making use of the EA support live chat, you are the one who needs to do some self-reflection, not Penguin.

why did Penguin claim her posts were an official representative of Bioware/EA's views, or make his video public at all? She posted a response because Penguin had quoted her in the video - even if he took out her name - and then put it on the forums.

I'm going to stress again - when Amelia is at home, she is not officially regarded as a representative of her company. She has explicitly stated before that she in no way represents Bioware or EA, which is absolutely true as she is not being paid to post on the forums. And for the record her response was very tame. It was well within community guidelines.

Penguin stated that if he said what Amelia said, he'd be fired. He then stated he has reported her. If you can't put two and two together, that isn't my fault.

I don't think Penguin is shaking the foundations of the world. I think he's actively damaged any chance the community had of a positive interaction with the developers for the forseeable future. I also think he's crossed the line by effectively leading a mob against a developer for what was a very tame post.

[Sulaco_7]

Seems very likely that "something" is going to happen with Amelia.  I hope she just gets a warning/reprimand...

 

I think we can all universally agree if she got fired, that would suck.

[-PenguinFetish-]

when Amelia is at home, she is not officially regarded as a representative of her company. 

 

If she is posting from an account that has 'BIOWARE' in big blue letters then yes she is, just like if I send a headed letter from my company outside of office hours, I am representing my company.

 

I also think if a user can post a 9 minute youtube video and single handedly destroy all communication lines between a billion dollar company and their official forums then that says a lot more about the company than the user.

[TheOgre]

The worst kind of apologist, the kind that actually reasons we are to blame for shoddy product, no interaction with developers to community, and putting up with personal insults by said developer when it actually happens.. I stopped now thinking you were being genuine storm. Ahh.. Rip

[Storm_Changer]

If she is posting from an account that has 'BIOWARE' in big blue letters then yes she is, just like if I send a headed letter from my company outside of office hours, I am representing my company.

If she says constantly that she is in no way representing her company formally or legally, then no, she is not. You may THINK she is, but that doesn't mean she is. When Amelia posts on the forum her official weighting is that of any other user. Your perception of her status as a developer does not change that fact. You cannot claim she is an official Bioware/EA mouthpiece, that is a lie both in legal terms and in terms of what Amelia herself has made very clear - which you full well know.

[actionhero112]

Wait so who is the official representative for the multiplayer segment of the game if it isn't Amelia?

 

Do we just not have one? 

 

LOL

[Bocochoco]

why did Penguin claim her posts were an official representative of Bioware/EA's views, or make his video public at all? She posted a response because Penguin had quoted her in the video - even if he took out her name - and then put it on the forums.I'm going to stress again - when Amelia is at home, she is not officially regarded as a representative of her company. She has explicitly stated before that she in no way represents Bioware or EA, which is absolutely true as she is not being paid to post on the forums. And for the record her response was very tame. It was well within community guidelines.Penguin stated that if he said what Amelia said, he'd be fired. He then stated he has reported her. If you can't put two and two together, that isn't my fault.I don't think Penguin is shaking the foundations of the world. I think he's actively damaged any chance the community had of a positive interaction with the developers for the forseeable future. I also think he's crossed the line by effectively leading a mob against a developer for what was a very tame post.

Lol wow this is unbelievably wrong.
That's like wearing an electrical company helmet after cutting the line to someone's house while off hours and then when the person comes out expressing their frustrations the electrical worker says he's not on the clock so he's not responsible so don't yell at him because he doesn't represent the company who's logo is on his helmet

[Suncowiam]

why did Penguin claim her posts were from an official representative of Bioware/EA's views, or make his video public at all? She posted a response because Penguin had quoted her in the video - even if he took out her name - and then put it on the forums.

I'm going to stress again - when Amelia is at home, she is not officially regarded as a representative of her company. She has explicitly stated before that she in no way represents Bioware or EA, which is absolutely true as she is not being paid to post on the forums. And for the record her response was very tame. It was well within community guidelines.

Penguin stated that if he said what Amelia said, he'd be fired. He then stated he has reported her. If you can't put two and two together, that isn't my fault.

I don't think Penguin is shaking the foundations of the world. I think he's actively damaged any chance the community had of a positive interaction with the developers for the forseeable future. I also think he's crossed the line by effectively leading a mob against a developer for what was a very tame post.

 

If the product was in better shape, I'm sure the relationship would be much better.  Frankly agree with most of what Penguin said.  My approach would have been more constructive and definitely without any cuss words.  Sorry Penguin, but that's very unprofessional.  But if one bypasses the emotions and just focus on his data: bug rate/percentage, media quotes and timeline...  He has very good points.

 

This product is not shipping quality.  The pots not breaking and key missing bugs are inexcusible as a software company.  Gold and time are resources in a game that depends on such mechanics to succeed itself and better the enjoyment of the players.  Simply inexcusible.

 

They chose to ship their product in this state so now they have to deal with the obvious consumer reaction.

[Storm_Changer]

The worst kind of apologist, the kind that actually reasons we are to blame for shoddy product, no interaction with developers to community, and putting up with personal insults by said developer when it actually happens.. I stopped now thinking you were being genuine storm. Ahh.. Rip

 

1) I never said we're to blame for the product being buggy as all hell. 

2) I've always stated, in this thread and in my other posts, that the devs need to formally interact with the community far more and keep us in the loop. 

3) Re-read Amelia's post on this thread. It's not even insulting at a stretch.

[Bocochoco]

1) I never said we're to blame for the product being buggy as all hell. 
2) I've always stated, in this thread and in my other posts, that the devs need to formally interact with the community far more and keep us in the loop. 
3) Re-read Amelia's post on this thread. It's not even insulting at a stretch.

I was actually insulted a quarter of the way through and my wife verbally abuses me

[Sulaco_7]

If she says constantly that she is in no way representing her company formally or legally, then no, she is not. You may THINK she is, but that doesn't mean she is. When Amelia posts on the forum her official weighting is that of any other user. Your perception of her status as a developer does not change that fact. You cannot claim she is an official Bioware/EA mouthpiece, that is a lie both in legal terms and in terms of what Amelia herself has made very clear - which you full well know.

 

She could have easily used personal accounts to post all her stuff.  It's confusing when you use a company account for personal views.  I think that's on her. 

[Storm_Changer]

If the product was in better shape, I'm sure the relationship would be much better.  Frankly agree with most of what Penguin said.  My approach would have been more constructive and definitely without any cuss words.  Sorry Penguin, but that's very unprofessional.  But if one bypasses the emotions and just focus on his data: bug rate/percentage, media quotes and timeline...  He has very good points.

 

This product is not shipping quality.  The pots not breaking and key missing bugs are inexcusible as a software company.  Gold and time are resources in a game that depends on such mechanics to succeed itself and better the enjoyment of the players.  Simply inexcusible.

 

They chose to ship their product in this state so now they have to deal with the obvious consumer reaction.

 

I agree that if the product was in better shape the relationship would be much better. And whilst the state of the multiplayer is utterly appalling, that is no excuse to publicly vilify or single out a dev and flat out lie about their relevance to this, nor is it an excuse to try and get them in trouble with their employer for what they do out of hours, which is my point of contention. 

 

By all means, vent about the state of the game. I certainly do. But attacking a person behind the game crosses the line. As does claiming they're representing a companies views when they legally aren't, and have stated they aren't multiple times. 

[wolfhowwl]

If she says constantly that she is in no way representing her company formally or legally, then no, she is not. You may THINK she is, but that doesn't mean she is. When Amelia posts on the forum her official weighting is that of any other user. Your perception of her status as a developer does not change that fact. You cannot claim she is an official Bioware/EA mouthpiece, that is a lie both in legal terms and in terms of what Amelia herself has made very clear - which you full well know.

 

She's posting from a forum account with the company name on it. She is representing BioWare and should act like it.

[Storm_Changer]

I was actually insulted a quarter of the way through and my wife verbally abuses me

 
Her post wasn't even directed at you. You're offended on behalf of somebody else, just like penguin was in his video. Side note: I'm sorry to hear your wife verbally abuses you.
 

She could have easily used personal accounts to post all her stuff.  It's confusing when you use a company account for personal views.  I think that's on her.

The reason she's using her Bioware account is likely to try and increase developer interaction with the community, even if its informal in nature. She's already clarified when asked numerous times that she isn't representing the company in any way. To state otherwise - as Penguin and others have done - is false.

She's posting from a forum account with the company name on it. She is representing BioWare and should act like it.

She is not representing Bioware as she has already stated - she is not paid to post on the forums. But for the record, she hasn't broken any community guidelines, her post on this thread was tame by comparison to other users.

[rafoquinha]

It's a LOT deeper than that.  Also...with internet and digital distribution if they gave an inkling of a **** they could literally put out a beta or alpha and have fans help them test the game.  Even do it to select people they choose and just give them codes or something.  Because they do not care then we get what we got on release day and continue to have now.  I am supposed to believe their testers are taking up anything but space?  You mean to tell me that through all their testing AND GAME DELAY they never figured out the Red Templar Commander doesn't die most of the time? Give me a break.  That didn't stop them from charging me $60  $70 for a retail product though.
 
They literally charged me to be a glorified beta tester...here I am 3-4 MONTHS later in the same boat.   I used to be a huge Bioware supporter.....made friends try mass effect and told them they were one of the best devs in the industry.  Now I am a liar.  I learned my lesson though.

Hi, my man. We are on the same side here. I am frustrated too. I have been playing coop since launch and the key bug annoys me.

I understand you!

[Scraps_in_Wales]

I Don't thing I've actually written a negative post about this - or indeed any - game before, but I am utterly amazed that any industry can talk down to its customers in this way, and having followed this forum since November without negative comment. (or completely ignore a failed product without fully reimbursing everyone effected, perhaps that's the bigger issue, but I'm astounded more by the feigned innocence). I've never assumed that anyone can do MY job better (any of a number of jobs across the world), and software developers are not gods either, despite their arrogance to assume so - soooo many people can step into your shoes, and frankly this is about as bad is it could possible get from a company. This is mainly directed at those in charge, rather than the peons, as it is them who - while they may bask in big money - are failures.

[Bocochoco]

Her post wasn't even directed at you. You're offended on behalf of somebody else, just like penguin was in his video. Side note: I'm sorry to hear your wife verbally abuses you. The reason she's using her Bioware account is likely to try and increase developer interaction with the community, even if its informal in nature. She's already clarified when asked numerous times that she isn't representing the company in any way. To state otherwise - as Penguin and others have done - is false.She is not representing Bioware as she has already stated - she is not paid to post on the forums. But for the record, she hasn't broken any community guidelines, her post on this thread was tame by comparison to other users.

I could have left her yet I've been with her 10 years. It's similar to my relationship with this game and no I am not offended on another persons behalf because Penguin has a lot more integrity than I do yet his current views directly reflect my own and Amelia's response to him directly not only felt like a jab at my own views but she DOES blame everyone else in her response so I have every right to be offended.
You have a right though to believe I don't have that right but whatever floats your boat. You're free to express that opinion however I will never support that view.

[Suncowiam]

I agree that if the product was in better shape the relationship would be much better. And whilst the state of the multiplayer is utterly appalling, that is no excuse to publicly vilify or single out a dev and flat out lie about their relevance to this, nor is it an excuse to try and get them in trouble with their employer for what they do out of hours, which is my point of contention. 

 

By all means, vent about the state of the game. I certainly do. But attacking a person behind the game crosses the line. As does claiming they're representing a companies views when they legally aren't, and have stated they aren't multiple times. 

 

I agree with what you're saying butttttt

 

Amelia does need to lay off on some of her responses.  If she kept it to the facts, status and progress of the work then it would be about just the facts, status and progress.

 

Here memes and replies get into personal references too.  Especially to her point of the consumers not being game designers.  I don't think that is relevant when I'm the consumer.  I can voice however I want the product to be and do not need a PHD in game design.  I do not need to be told that I can only voice my opinion only if I was a game designer.

 

I was actually very surpised to see that cat meme.  Uhm, that was pretty unneccesary.  It has nothing to do with the state of the development.

 

Anyhows, she might be doing her best but she has responsibility on how she approaches the consumers.  Her boss, BIOWARE and EA shares responsibility on how any of their employees responds to the consumer base.  Frankly, a good business model does not depend on an employee's spare time to enhance producer/consumer relations.  That is why you have Marketing/Sales.  Amelia is clearly not in marketing.  Who they need is a Marketing PM with customer relations experience.  Penguin actually could have been their "hero" or avatar so to speak outside of these forums.  He was building content and hype with his spare time.  That youtube video could have been very positive and could have spun this whole thread around to that of a celebration/praise tone.  But like I said, it all boils down to the product.

[Kleon]

So.... They said themselves in interviews that were put on DAI website that they were testing single player combat in DAMP, that they love DAMP and that they played it a lot throughout development, yet all of those obvious and frequent bugs somehow slipped through? 

 

Speaks volumes about EAWare's approach to quality of their product and so much more if you think about it for a second.

[Storm_Changer]

I could have left her yet I've been with her 10 years. It's similar to my relationship with this game and no I am not offended on another persons behalf because Penguin has a lot more integrity than I do yet his current views directly reflect my own and Amelia's response to him directly not only felt like a jab at my own views but she DOES blame everyone else in her response so I have every right to be offended.
You have a right though to believe I don't have that right but whatever floats your boat. You're free to express that opinion however I will never support that view.

Whilst I don't agree with Amelias views, I think some of her points about community backlash to dev interaction are well founded. Case in point - some users are reporting her to her workplace for her informal forum posts here. Why would any developer want to comment here in their spare time - unpaid - AND risk their job in the process? The answer is obvious, and probably reflects part of the reason why devs don't choose to interact with us often.

We have a right to be annoyed at the state of the game - I am - but I think it's going too far to lead to crusade against any individual, let alone report them to their superiors for informal comments made on a public forum that they had every right to post and publicly vilify them.

[Storm_Changer]

I agree with what you're saying butttttt
 
Amelia does need to lay off on some of her responses.  If she kept it to the facts, status and progress of the work then it would be about just the facts, status and progress.

Anyhows, she might be doing her best but she has responsibility on how she approaches the consumers.

I agree that some of her responses weren't great. But she's human - no-one is perfect. She informally interacts with the community because she isn't paid to manage the community or give us updates. She can respond however she wants, there should be no repercussions for what she does in her own time. The bottom line is that she is officially at the same level as us when she posts on the forums - she only has to follow community guidelines [which she has] like the rest of us.

So, how many times should we turn the other cheek for Bioware? We don't know the situation leading up to the DA:I release this is absolutely true but, we know that the game has many issues and is on the market despite these problems. There are people on PC, Xbox and PlayStation that are incapable of playing the game or if able they encounter crashes, save corruption, horrible textures, Frame rate issues and multiplayer bugs. I understand that no game releases without bugs but **** when is enough, enough? When do they cross the line or go to far, what is an acceptable amount of bugs or technical issues.

I personally think the game shouldn't be sold in this state. But I'm not defending the games buggy state. Attacking or singling out one of the only devs who even comment on these forums is not going to fix the game or increase developer interaction with the community - it will do the opposite.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

Whilst I don't agree with Amelias views, I think some of her points about community backlash to dev interaction are well founded. Case in point - some users are reporting her to her workplace for her informal forum posts here. Why would any developer want to comment here in their spare time - unpaid - AND risk their job in the process? The answer is obvious, and probably reflects part of the reason why devs don't choose to interact with us often.

We have a right to be annoyed at the state of the game - I am - but I think it's going too far to lead to crusade against any individual, let alone report them to their superiors for informal comments made on a public forum that they had every right to post and publicly vilify them.

Pay someone to do it. It is called public relations and any company that sells things to the general public should have one.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

I agree that some of her responses weren't great. But she's human - no-one is perfect. She informally interacts with the community because she isn't paid to manage the community or give us updates. She can respond however she wants, there should be no repercussions for what she does in her own time. The bottom line is that she is officially at the same level as us when she posts on the forums - she only has to follow community guidelines [which she has] like the rest of us.
 

Whether you want to believe it or not, she is representing the company. I take it you've never sold commercial good of any sort or worked retail. It doesn't matter what you think, the people at the top will hold you accountable for things like this. That's how the world works.