413 réponses à ce sujet

[Waukeen25]

So declares Waukeen25, lord of law. We don't decide when it is to be considered official. Bioware and Amelia herself do, she has clearly stated her opinions are not to be taken as representation of Bioware or EA.

 

ODFO - I have presented facts if you want to make a direct attack on me as she did and it makes you feel better about yourself then by all means feel free.  I get the feeling you h ave never worked in a customer oriented profession, I have and do, if I had made a statement such as she has while on my official account I would have been fired.  Thats all there is to it, if she is doing this on her own time then good for her but she should not be posting under the official account that she has.,

[Yumi]

Question dude
Does this currently qualify for a class action as a consumer? I mean I know any group can sue but does the current state of this game meet any of the criteria to be taken up by a court if law?

Sorry man I can't answer questions like that for stupid legal reasons.

[Waukeen25]

.... Re read the post I said nonlegal gray area of impressions.

I'm bar certified in the state of florida. License #91443. Feel free to look it up. I'm sure you will want photos to compare if it's me, but sorry I'm not that stupid.

Facts are only facts as defined by the lenses we view them from. Scientific facts are not always legal facts and vice versa.

You believing your fact is a legal fact does not make that true.

 

Question Yumi, if someone posts under an official account even if they state it is on their own time how does the law view that?

[Storm_Changer]

Not looking for anyone's head in particular...my idea of "firing someone in the gaming industry" was simply an idea, a suggestion. One that perhaps could shake things up a bit.

But lets not play ourselves. We all know that no one is going to lose their job over this. It's 2015, and we're talking about video games....everyone is safe lol.

But even if someone, say Amelia, did lose their job because of this...who cares?? I just got news that 4 of my close friends lost their jobs in the oil patch due to cutbacks, and the recent drop in oil prices. That's something completely beyond their control, and it's something to lose sleep over. Someone losing their job because they contributed to creating a broken product, and was then unable to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner via social media and the interwebz is nothing to lose sleep over.

What I AM looking for is some humility, and some accountability. Someone, anyone, I don't care if it's the guy in the mail room...step up and explain how things got to where they are, and outline a detailed plan of who they plan to fix this. At this point, anything less is a slap in the face.

You claim that there are "other factors" which could contribute to the game being broken. Care to enlighten us with your insider knowledge, oh wise one? Or better yet, why not ask Bioware to explain things, instead of just speculating will feverishly sucking Andraste's sweet nips.

Deny it all you want, but someone is ultimately responsible for the current state of affairs, whether it's the actual issues with the game itself, or the complete lack of comics ripen regarding said issues.

And again, I'm not looking for whoever is responsible just to put the blame on them, have them fired, whatever. Ultimately, that won't really solve anything.

Hate to be cliche, but to repeat the old phrase "the first step to fixing a problem is admitting that you have one." As things stand right now, it seems as though Bioware can't even acknowledge that there is a problem.

So, continue to fly that "this is no one's fault, no one's responsibility, it just happened" flag. Keep eating that ass soup you're being fed by the industry. Other than feeling sorry for you, I don't really have any beef.

But until the current paradigm shifts, I stand by what I've said, and I'm ok with any labels you want to throw at me. I have a label maker too.

Your directing your anger at the gaming industry at large on a single developer of a single game. It's entirely out of line and unfair - single developers are not responsible for the state of the gaming industry. The consumer, the investors, the publishers, the developers and I'm sure other groups all have parts to play. No one person is accountable for the gaming industry.

In a similar respect, no one person is accountable for the state of DA:I. I'd love to see them formally acknowledging the issues and stating clearly what they intend to do. But that simply won't happen if we're leading witch-hunts against developers who ARE posting on the forum. We're creating an atmosphere that no developer in their right mind would want to jump into. Why should they? Who would want to risk their job and stick their neck out, taking responsibility for things that ultimately wasn't their fault, whilst risking getting in trouble due to angsty forum users in the process? Put yourself in their shoes.

I entirely agree that the game state is bad - I've always said that. But one should be angry at the game, not any one individual who may or may not be responsible for it. If we want more developer interaction, we need to allow them to speak bluntly and honestly with us. When someone like Amelia has tried to in this thread, it's caused massive backlash. Little wonder that none of the devs want to speak up, when people are actually forwarding complaints to EA about an informal discussion on a public forum. A group is responsible for the game state, but we as a whole are responsible for the community. It goes both ways.

[Anzer]

Question dude
Does this currently qualify for a class action as a consumer? I mean I know any group can sue but does the current state of this game meet any of the criteria to be taken up by a court if law?

Did you read the EULA? I would recommend doing that before considering any legal actions.

 

--

 

All I can say is, apparently some peoples ideas of proportion are proportional to their emotional state.

[PurpGuy1]

Some very sneaky editing to make my posts fit your viewpoint! As always, context is key, and there's a lot of context missing around the things you've posted ( I recommend following @AndrastesTits on Twitter, by the way, she's hilarious ).

 

Honestly, this video is solid evidence that these forums don't really want dev interaction or communication. When I joined the forum it was because I saw cries for these very things, and I thought I would help. What I quickly realized, however, is that whenever someone sticks their neck out in the forum there are a thousand swords to fall on it regardless of the content of the post. There is this very confusing cognitive dissonance where it seems this community wants interaction and communication, but pushes back fiercely when they actually receive it. A number of users on the BSN turn this space into a hostile, inhospitable environment, and asking why the developers don't interact is strange - the answer is well known. I will say - There are a number of wonderful, helpful community members in these forums whom I really appreciate. Its unfortunate that the people who are behaving poorly get so much attention.

 

I'm honestly disappointed things went this way, with you especially Penguin. You so quickly turned from a hero into a villain. I'm sorry that you didn't get what you wanted from me. I'm happy that you're taking what seems like a much needed break. Its going to be a good year for MP, there's a lot of awesome stuff coming down the pipe, and if you decide to check in in a few months I know you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

Be Excellent to Eachother

 

Thanks,

Amelia

 

It's dangerous to go alone!  Take THIS (THick Internet Skin):

[Eldial3los]

This is what i was referring to when i talked about the office environment earlier, a hostile environment which does not allow for a mature discussion. You basically have 2 camps now.  Some people are even finger pointing other customers because of the divergence in opinion. (Bioware defenders apparently).

 

People that agree with Penguin message but don't like the delivery method (Me and a few others)

People that agree with Penguin ways of doing it because they (Bioware) threw the first stone.

 

There is always 2 ways of passing a message, positively with reinforcements or negatively by emphasizing on the failures.

Now emphasizing on the failure might bring the right results but most of the time, it puts the other party on a defensive stand. They hear the negative and put their guard up, it leads to an aggressive confrontation. The receiving party will be less likely to listen to your suggestion if you open up with  all negatives compares to a person that first starts with the positive. I know right human psychology 101  .

 

Two wrongs does not make it right, well unless we are kids in school yard. This is Bioware throwing the first stone, and customer retaliating with another stone. Until everything is blown out of proportion.

 

This is endless discussion that can go on forever, until some entity (human or company) can mature up and take the higher path. 

[Yumi]

Question Yumi, if someone posts under an official account even if they state it is on their own time how does the law view that?

Sorry bud I can't answer specific legal questions.
Even if I answered it I don't think you would be satisfied. The answer depends on lots of factors and it would take me hours of research and several pages of writing to give you a concrete answer.

[Bocochoco]

Did you read the EULA? I would recommend doing that before considering any legal actions.
 
--
 
All I can say is, apparently some peoples ideas of proportion are proportional to their emotional state.

I get it and that is wrong however I don't believe it qualifies for those who purchased MP platinum such as myself when it has been proven that the multiplayer content does not work 30% of the time. I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that for those who purchased extra content on a promise to deliver and that product was faulty 30% of the time that everyone who purchased platinum should be able to receive a portion of 30% of the proceeds gained from all platinum users

[UnearthlyCheese]

@Storm_Changer, in regards to your ludacris lawyer talk. Are you out of your ****ing mind??? What reality do you live in where people actually give a rats ass about "technically, she is not representing the company".

Once she opens her mouth and spews whatever comes out into the universe, it's out there for anyone to interpret any way they like. It's for this reason that it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for anyone in a position even remotely similar to hers to very careful what they say.

To add to that, I think it's pretty clear you've never had a job where a uniform is required (a respected uniform, not talking McDonald's here, no offense). If you had any experience in the military, police force, fire department, etc, you would be very conscious of the fact that the moment you put that uniform on, every single thing you do will be scrutinized, and interpreted as "official representation" of whatever entity the uniform is associated with. The exact same is true of any Bioware employee posting under a Bioware affiliated account. It makes no difference if it's personal or business, while that tag is beside your name, everything you say and do will be interpreted as official.

You actually think people have time to go research her post history to be able to break down exactly where her opinions are coming from? Hell no.

If it says BW, it's official, lawyer talk or not.

If she wants to post completely unofficial, create a new account with a fake name!! Simple.


Add to the fact that she responded to question directed at Bioware with her personal account ("How did this get passed testing, BW's QA must really suck" - Amelia "how dare you! Our team is the best in the world!!"), how is one not to take that as even "semi-official"


As Yumi has so kindly pointed out, your legal mumbo-jumbo is, well, just that...mumbo-jumbo. Completely based in fiction or whatever weird version of reality you exist in. Just like your claims of "outside factors" causing these problems, trying to shift blame away from BW.

Start working with facts, or STFU. I'm really starting to think you actually might work for BW. Perhaps youre the guy in the mail room?

[DrKilledbyDeath]

Yumi raining down the legal knowledge. I may run out of likes soon.

[Yumi]

Dang it please stop bringing up legal topics so I walk away lol

EULA is not god.

Consumer Protection Laws exist for a reason.

That being said, let's drop all the legal talk. You really don't want lawyers anywhere near you lol. I only posted to criticize Storm guy for acting like he knows what he's talking about legally. Almost as many armchair lawyers out there as armchair devs.

PS nothing in this post should be construed as legal advice and no client relationship is created by reading this post

[Bocochoco]

Dang it please stop bringing up legal topics so I walk away lol
EULA is not god.
Consumer Protection Laws exist for a reason.
That being said, let's drop all the legal talk. You really don't want lawyers anywhere near you lol. I only posted to criticize Storm guy for acting like he knows what he's talking about legally. Almost as many armchair lawyers out there as armchair devs.

B-b-but I've never once heard something negative about a lawyer.
The Devils Advocate was an amazing documentary.
I don't know how they got The Devil to play himself in that film but man that was AWEWWSOME!

[Yumi]

B-b-but I've never once heard something negative about a lawyer.
The Devils Advocate was an amazing documentary.
I don't know how they got The Devil to play himself in that film but man that was AWEWWSOME!

Reading this post made me invoke his name. I'm trying to make dinner and burned myself while laughing ._.

[Bocochoco]

Reading this postage me invoke his name. I'm trying to make dinner and burned myself while laughing ._.

Awwwwwwww man I'm sorry.
Must feel right at home in the fire though

[wolfhowwl]

Since BioWare released an unfinished game like Ubisoft perhaps they could also learn something from them about communication.

 

http://assassinscree...ates/index.aspx

[Sabaki]

She has stated she isn't. Legally she isn't. In retail ect you are PAID to be nice to customers, Amelia is not being paid to post on the forums. She is in no way endorsed by Bioware or EA, nor does she have any formal capacity or power to speak on their behalf or represent their views - which she has already stated herself.
 

 

 

If she says constantly that she is in no way representing her company formally or legally, then no, she is not. You may THINK she is, but that doesn't mean she is. When Amelia posts on the forum her official weighting is that of any other user. Your perception of her status as a developer does not change that fact. You cannot claim she is an official Bioware/EA mouthpiece, that is a lie both in legal terms and in terms of what Amelia herself has made very clear - which you full well know.

Please stop saying "legally."  My impression is that you are not a lawyer, or if you are, you aren't a very good one.  

 

In particular, you seem to be confusing the legal doctrine of agency (concerning agents--those who have been appointed as legal representatives of a business entity) with the broader notion of customer service.

 

Comments made by a BioWare employee in Amelia's position could easily have legal consequences, regardless of whether that employee was a designated "Bioware/EA mouthpiece."  For example, there are any number of things an employee might do or say that might violate a condition of their employment contract.  Boom.  Legal consequence.

 

Think of a professional sports team.  There are countless examples of players losing their jobs because of what most would consider private behavior.  They lose their jobs because although they aren't legal agents of the company (they aren't in a position to legally bind the company via contract, for example) their behavior can hurt the company (either legally or otherwise).

 

Not saying Amelia should be fired.  Not my decision.  But this video was, if anything, long overdue.  Shame on her.  I've lurked in these forums consistently since release hoping for some news regarding the myriad of issues, both in SP and MP.  At first, BioWare's official silence and their employee's (unofficial) comments were troubling, as both seemed to indicate either ignorance or indifference to concerns over a game that was surprisingly incomplete by any standard.  

 

As a loyal BioWare customer (10+ years, Neverwinter Nights onward) it makes me sad to see where the reputation of the company is now.  I am also saddened by their treatment of the community, Penguin in particular.  His guides were some of the more thought provoking contributions to the community since, say, SuicidalBaby and Arelex, whose DA2 analysis enhanced the enjoyment of the game for many.  Unfortunately, a cursory review of other DAI forums suggests that Penguin's treatment here is only (ugh) the tip of the iceberg.

[Waukeen25]

Did you read the EULA? I would recommend doing that before considering any legal actions.

 

--

 

All I can say is, apparently some peoples ideas of proportion are proportional to their emotional state.

 

EULAs can be challenged and have been.  You cannot be forced to give up legal rights because of something like that.  Besides Bioware and EA have both been sued for stuff like this already.

[Storm_Changer]

Once she opens her mouth and spews whatever comes out into the universe, it's out there for anyone to interpret any way they like

True. You can INTERPRET it in any way at all. Interpretation // reality. The reality is simply that Amelia has stated she isn't representing the companies views.

To add to that, I think it's pretty clear you've never had a job where a uniform is required

I've worked in customer services. There was never a chance to be informal - you obviously have to be in the building to log onto the correct systems. But if I sent an e-mail to a customer from home it would be in an entirely different context altogether. It never happened to me personally, there was no need.

If she wants to post completely unofficial, create a new account with a fake name!! Simple.

Because it won't be obvious she's a developer when she knows far more about whats going on then anyone else? // Sarcasm. Moreover, the reason she posts on her official account is to add a developer presence to the forums - that purpose would be entirely defeated if she was posting as an undercover developer.

Add to the fact that she responded to question directed at Bioware with her personal account ("How did this get passed testing, BW's QA must really suck" - Amelia "how dare you! Our team is the best in the world!!"), how is one not to take that as even "semi-official"

It's pretty clear she was informally responding to that particular sentiment. If you take informal jesting as semi-official then that's down to your interpretation.

As Yumi has so kindly pointed out, your legal mumbo-jumbo is, well, just that...mumbo-jumbo. Completely based in fiction or whatever weird version of reality you exist in. Just like your claims of "outside factors" causing these problems, trying to shift blame away from BW.[

He stated it was a "non-legal gray area of impressions." By that logic, you can no more claim Amelia is officially representing Bioware than I can claim she isn't. But then, Amelia herself has out-right stated she isn't trying to represent her companies views in any way, I put more stock in that then in empty rhetoric to the contrary.

I've already given you examples of other factors at play in the gaming industry, I couldn't tell you which combination led to this games poor release, nor would I claim to know.

Start working with facts, or STFU. I'm really starting to think you actually might work for BW. Perhaps youre the guy in the mail room?

I am working with facts > like the fact Amelia doesn't get paid to post on the forums and has already stated she is in no way trying to represent the companies views.

Damn it he took the red pill! You caught me. Games up. I'm secretly the leader of the gaming illuminati. I am responsible for all of gamings ills. I use my position as mail man as a front for my secret and vast global network of anti-gamers. <-- SARCASM, just incase you weren't sure.

[Eldial3los]

Boooo, I'm disappointed Lord Vader. What's with all the reason and logic? I came here to see you go all Sith Lord on people.

 

Well I'm Scared of all the Arcane Warriors here. You guys are just too OP for an aggressive stand 

[Bocochoco]

Please stop saying "legally."  My impression is that you are not a lawyer, or if you are, you aren't a very good one.  
 
In particular, you seem to be confusing the legal doctrine of agency (concerning agents--those who have been appointed as legal representatives of a business entity) with the broader notion of customer service.
 
Comments made by a BioWare employee in Amelia's position could easily have legal consequences, regardless of whether that employee was a designated "Bioware/EA mouthpiece."  For example, there are any number of things an employee might do or say that might violate a condition of their employment contract.  Boom.  Legal consequence.
 
Think of a professional sports team.  There are countless examples of players losing their jobs because of what most would consider private behavior.  They lose their jobs because although they aren't legal agents of the company (they aren't in a position to legally bind the company via contract, for example) their behavior can hurt the company (either legally or otherwise).
 
Not saying Amelia should be fired.  Not my decision.  But this video was, if anything, long overdue.  Shame on her.  I've lurked in these forums consistently since release hoping for some news regarding the myriad of issues, both in SP and MP.  At first, BioWare's official silence and their employee's (unofficial) comments were troubling, as both seemed to indicate either ignorance or indifference to concerns over a game that was surprisingly incomplete by any standard.  
 
As a loyal BioWare customer (10+ years, Neverwinter Nights onward) it makes me sad to see where the reputation of the company is now.  I am also saddened by their treatment of the community, Penguin in particular.  His guides were some of the more thought provoking contributions to the community since, say, SuicidalBaby and Arelex, whose DA2 analysis enhanced the enjoyment of the game for many.  Unfortunately, a cursory review of other DAI forums suggests that Penguin's treatment here is only (ugh) the tip of the iceberg.

Lulz worthy
Great ending