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[Ryzaki]

Wall of text ahead.

 

Here. There are links to other parts added to it as well.

 

Oh this post.

Well someone already made a response here and here but I'll add my own additions since I don't agree with everything there.

 

So basically pretzel bending as I expected.

 

Also that private thing? That's their relationship. So Dorian can crawl to Bull for sex but by god if any one knows about it. So I'm supposed to be feeling sympathy for Dorian in regards to that...why exactly? He can stop his relationship with Bull at any time this was a one night stand that grew to something more not a loving relationship gone south or Bull isolating him from his support system. Bull was as crude and lewd with Dorian from the very beginning. If Dorian had a problem with that...he shouldn't have crawled into bed with Bull.

 

But anyway let's do this.

 

It continues with the way it progress into “something more”: the Bull sleeps with Dorian when he is drunk. Given how big a deal Bull makes out of consent — when it suits him, of course, and when he doesn’t explain what that consent entails — this alone is deplorable enough. A drunk person is not capable of proper consent.

But considering that Dorian has a very obvious, very apparent problem with drinking judging by how he often he craves drink or a tavern or even how often other party members will talk to him about it, Bull’s actions become downright despicable.

I’ve said this before and I will say it again: Iron Bull is one of the most valuable and special spies of the Ben-Hassrath — one who notices everything about a man with just a few glances as evidenced by banter in Redcliffe, among several others — sleeps with the person he has been harrassing with unsolicited sexual comments that are not returned in any kind at any point before the “hook up” — or even after —, the same person who very clearly, very obviously has some sort of drinking problem after that person has been drinking

Lastly, there is the way Iron Bull will treat Dorian during their “relationship”: He belittles him, he talks over him, he drags things that are private out in the open for no other apparent reason than boasting, he ignores Dorian’s explicit and implicit wishes.

 

Of course I already dealt with this "he raped him!" defense but I guess I might as well go over it again.

 

First Dorian was obviously lucid given he flat out admits it was

 

 

the fact that he uses the phrase “ill-considered” shows that he knew what he was getting into, he decided to do it anyway. it means badly thought out - as in, “i thought about it, made my own conscious decision to do it anyway, even knowing it might be a bad idea.” it was Dorian's choice. he’s an extremely intelligent man with a wide vocabulary, do you really think he would use that term if it happened against his will? or if he knew that he got talked into it while in a vulnerable state? no. he would say so, if that were the case. he didn't say so. that should be that.

 

I'm sorry but you getting drunk and making a choice that you regret (obviously not that much considering he continues to make it afterwards so unless we're saying he tripped and Bull landed in his ass after a fashion Dorian made a sober conscious choice to sleep with Bull yet again. I mean leaving his underwear behind so he had an excuse to come and get some more is not so much regret as it is I rode the bull and I liked it.)

 

Not to mention the assumption that Bull (who's shown drinking regularly as well) to be perfectly sober in this is laughable.

 

Then of course is the author's twisting of Bull's consent to be predatory and not letting the Inquisitor know what he/she was consenting too.
Now while I'll agree the devs could've made that a bit more clear common sense dictates that your PC agreed to all the sex that occurred. You have to confirm the romance 3 times, and after that they bone and you lose control of your character. Your character consented. Deal with it. Your character consented even after Bull did...whatever he did. Deal with it.  The dialogue afterwards confirms that your character consented to all that followed. Deal. With. It. (Bull's not even a re-educator anyway he's a freaking spy).

 

Not to mention given that Bull offered no less than 3 times for you to backout and always accepts no without any attempts at manipulation or trying to get you to change your mind I'm sorry but there's no goddamn way I'm buying him manipulating the PC into staying with him. Just no. The pretzel is bent and you need to replay the game because you obviously didn't pay attention the first go around.

 

Also unsolicited sexual comments? Yep and do note how Dorian doesn't ask him to stop and indeed in some he goes along with it. And the one time Dorian does express discomfort he immediately stops. (With the whole conquer you banter). 

• Dorian: I hope it doesn’t bother you to travel alongside a “Vint,” Iron Bull.
• Iron Bull: That what you are? You people all kind of look the same to me.
• Dorian: I’m also a mage. Would you prefer me bound and leashed?
• Iron Bull: I’d buy you dinner first.
• Dorian: Hopefully before you sewed my mouth shut.
• Iron Bull: Depends how much you keep yapping.

Bull deflects Dorian's comment with flirt, Dorian rolls with the flirt there and keeps the conversation moving.

 

• Iron Bull: That staff’s in pretty good shape, Dorian.
• Iron Bull: Do you spend a lot of time polishing it?
• Dorian: (Groans.)

Reminds me of Fenris groaning at Isabela's "did you glisten" comment. It's not a repulsed groan but a "really?" type. Note the lack of knock it off.

 

• Dorian: Watch where you’re pointing that thing!
• Iron Bull: Dirty.
• Dorian: Vishante kaffas! I meant your weapon!

Dorian complains about Bull's weapon so Bull decides to troll him. Yes how very oppressive.

• Iron Bull: Think I know what your problem is, Dorian.
• Dorian: I have only the one?
• Iron Bull: You see a man who’s burned out, who left his people and entire life behind… and for what?
• Dorian: You’re not suggesting we’re similar.
• Iron Bull: How’s that mirror treating you? Pretty picture, isn’t it?
• Dorian: I may vomit.
• Iron Bull: Wait, wait, I’ll flex a little for you. Make it easier.

• Dorian: I will never understand why Qunari warriors spend half their time running around bare-chested.
• Iron Bull: Thought you’d appreciate that.
• Iron Bull: You see a member of the Beresaad in full armor, you run, because it’s war.
• Dorian: They should wear armor all the time!
• Iron Bull: Then they’d have to invade everyone. You’re so bloodthirsty.
• Dorian: (Growls.)

• Dorian: Vishante kaffas! Don’t you ever bathe?
• Iron Bull:  You like it. Sometimes. You want to watch, don’t you?
• Dorian: I’d rather stand upwind.
• Iron Bull: Human sweat smells like pork that’s been sitting in the sun. Just saying.

 

• Iron Bull: Quite the stink-eye you’ve got going, Dorian.
• Dorian: You stand there, flexing your muscles, huffing like some beast of burden with no thought save conquest.
• Iron Bull: That’s right. These big muscled hands could tear those robes off while you struggled, helpless in my grip.
• Iron Bull: I’d pin you down, and as you gripped my horns; I. Would. Conquer. You.
• Dorian: Uh. What?
• Iron Bull:Oh. Is that not where we’re going?
• Dorian: No. It was very much not.

Also it does amuse me how half these banters start with Dorian whining about something. But anyway not the point. Dorian whining about something and Bull deflecting said complaints with flirtation is pretty much standard as far as their banter goes.

 

The one banter I see that's actually questionable is probably the conquer you banter which Bull stops as soon as Dorian's all "No." It's not "ooh but you want to." he stops. But I'm supposed to believe that's ignoring Dorian's boundaries?

 

The one time I see him talking over Dorian is here:

 

• Varric: So Bull, you and Dorian?
• Iron Bull: Mm-hmm.
• Varric: Two worlds tearing them apart, Tevinter and Qunari, with only love to keep them together.
• Dorian: I don’t see how this is even remotely your business, Varric.
• Iron Bull: Could you make it sound angrier? Love is a bit soft.
• Dorian: Please stop helping the dwarf.
• Varric: How about passion?
• Iron Bull: Yeah, that’s better. Love is all starlight and gentle blushes. Passion leaves your fingers sore from clawing the sheets.
• Dorian: You could at least have had the courtesy to use the bedposts.
• Iron Bull: Hey, don’t top from the bottom.
• Varric: (Laughs.) Passion it is, then.

Which yeah I say Bull should've probably stopped after Dorian asked him to but calling this abuse and manipulation? Rude yep. Crude? Yep. That was Bull's MO from the time Dorian met him however and he knew that about the man before he climbed into his bed.

 

But oh yeah Dorian's drinking issues.

 

I do agree with the source I linked here.

 

 

 

dorian as an alcoholic, or a recovering one, is an interesting headcanon, one i’d like to explore, but that’s all it is - a headcanon. yes, he talks about drinking, but only two or three times. and do you know who is literally ALWAYS drinking directly out of a wine bottle? krem. i dont see anything about him being an alcoholic, and im not saying he is. he just likes a drink. dorian does too. this doesnt make people alcoholics. you cant use this headcanon as evidence, because it’s just a headcanon.

but, going along with the headcanon because i know people will use it as evidence anyway, we know that dorian makes his own decisions. that he left his homeland is proof of that. if he wants to drink, he will. if he doesnt want to drink but someone is trying to force him, he wont. iron bull is not the type of person who would force an alcoholic to get drunk in order to have sex, we’ve been over this. and dorian isnt going to let himself be forced into anything, we’ve been over that too. some examples: his arranged marriage in tevinter, the blood magic ritual, having to abide by the country’s corrupt system. we’ve also been over the fact that if he does get forced into something, or if someone tries to force him, he’s going to make that known. more examples: he tells the inquisitor about the blood magic ritual. he tells varric about his arranged marriage. he tells everyone that he wants to fix his home. so there you go.

 

Also Dorian's implicit wishes to keep his relationship a secret and act like he's above "fereldan beer"? Yeah that implict wish can screw itself. If that was his wish he should stay way from Bull's bed. He's not being forced into there.

 

And on the note of forcing into bed.

 

• Sera: (laughs)
• Dorian: Something particularly funny?
• Sera: You. And Bull. (laughs)
• Dorian: I-I’m glad it amuses you, but what I get from my affairs is my affair.
• Sera: I know what you get.
• Sera: It’s like falling through a tree into custard.
• Sera: Too high! Wham! Too fast! Wham! Leaves! Wham! Splat!
• Dorian: I’m not sure which is worse, the mockery or the accuracy.
• Iron Bull: (if in party) Eh, depends how much rest the trees had.

• Iron Bull: So, Dorian, about last night...
• Dorian: (Sighs.) Discretion isn't your thing, is it?
• Iron Bull: Three times! Also, do you want your silky underthings back, or did you leave those like a token? Or... wait, did you "forget" them so you'd have an excuse to come back? You sly dog!
• Dorian: If you choose to leave your door unlocked like a savage, I may or may not come.
• Iron Bull: Speak for yourself.

 

How do people get forced from that? Does Bull have a jedi mind trick to get Dorian to crave the D so much that he loses his mind? Or is Dorian infantaized to the point where him making the choice to go back to Bull for more sex is no longer his choice. He must've been brainwashed because he's not a grown ass man capable of making his own decisions. If Dorian was so damn vulnerable to manipulation the Tevinter courts would've eaten him alive.

 

And Dorian gets a pass from being explicit when he's offering to draw diagrams but god forbid Bull mention he set the curtains on fire? Dem doublestandards.
 

[Hazegurl]

And you aren't biased?

 

If you hadn't read what I linked to, it explains (in detail) unwanted sexual harassment IB does to Dorian. He even explains a rape fantasy to him.

 

Also, if you payed attention to IB's conversations, you'd know that he's part of the Ben Hassrath and they directly manipulate how people think. They are called the 'Re-edcuators'. There are people in real life who can do that to you as well. 

I don't believe he manipulates Dorian into a relationship. That is Dorian's own toxic choice. However, IMO, I don't see how IB is suddenly such an honest person. He brags all the time about knowing people's inner thoughts based on behavior or whatever, something Solas argues with him about. And his name means liar. Which means he was born and bred for lying to people every day of his life. I'm just saying, when did he suddenly become a beacon of truth, honesty, and pure intent? He ain't that bad of a person, but I wouldn't believe jack sh*t he says. He's a good drinking buddy though.

[Ryzaki]

I don't believe he manipulates Dorian into a relationship. That is Dorian's own toxic choice. However, IMO, I don't see how IB is suddenly such an honest person. He brags all the time about knowing people's inner thoughts based on behavior or whatever, something Solas argues with him about. And his name means liar. Which means he was born and bred for lying to people every day of his life. I'm just saying, when did he suddenly become a beacon of truth, honesty, and pure intent? He ain't that bad of a person, but I wouldn't believe jack sh*t he says. He's a good drinking buddy though.

 

You say that like liars are something rare in the Inquisition. Half our party at least are professional liars and manipulators.

 

That said Bull is fairly blunt and upfront with the Inquisitor. That's where we're getting the intent from.  If you can show me where he lies or manipulates the PC I'd love to see it.

 

And don't bother with the Tal Vasoth. It was propaganda that he fell for which you can call him out on and he acknowledges if you save the chargers.

[Sui Causa]

I don't believe he manipulates Dorian into a relationship. That is Dorian's own toxic choice. However, IMO, I don't see how IB is suddenly such an honest person. He brags all the time about knowing people's inner thoughts based on behavior or whatever, something Solas argues with him about. And his name means liar. Which means he was born and bred for lying to people every day of his life. I'm just saying, when did he suddenly become a beacon of truth, honesty, and pure intent? He ain't that bad of a person, but I wouldn't believe jack sh*t he says. He's a good drinking buddy though.

I'm willing to accept that head canon. I really am. I'm just not willing to accept that he's a rapist. That he's manipulative or abusive. He doesn't rape the chantry sister who giggles about him. He doesn't rape the nobles that talk glowingly about him in his codex entry. He doesn't rape the kitchen servants or the red-headed elf, or anyone he's ever made himself available to and then followed up on. Even the chantry sister went to Bull. It's his MO. It's how he works. He doesn't return flirting with the Inquisitor and asks for consent like 3 three times before he takes them to bed. The writers probably realized that the if they wrote him any other way, people would run with it to paint him in a bad light. But they did the exact opposite. Bull as a character, lets people come to him. Whether it's how he fights in battle (thank you Cole for that insight), to how he has sex with them. Bull gets off on being what they want, and then giving it to them.

 

But apparently he gets it in his head that he wants a piece of everyone's favorite Tevinter Mustache and he's going to stop at nothing until he's tricked him into his bed? What? Dorian's ass is glorious and amazing, he sparkles in the moonlight and his wit and charm is awesome and all that, but really?

 

Iron Bull made himself very available, as he does to .... literally everyone except the Inquisitor lol.He's crude and very Iron Bull about it, but that's what it was. Dorian made that decision for himself. Dorian continues to make those decisions. "If you're going to leave your door unlocked like a savage, I may or may not come."

 

If you want to take it at absolute face value and not inflict their personalities or head canon about them in any way? Iron Bull is good at sex. Dorian is enjoying the sex. Iron Bull continues to be Iron Bull, and Dorian isn't so sure that's what he wants for himself. Iron Bull thinks Dorian is great, and wants them to be good for each other. By the end of the game, Dorian wants to stay in order to see if there's more to Bull than just his penis.

 

Those are the games facts, as laid out for us. Paint the rest how you want, but abuse and rape and Iron Bull using Ben-Hassrath training to mind control Dorian with his penis (PELVIC SORCERY) aren't a thing. I'm going to continue to argue with people who continue to suggest otherwise.

[Sui Causa]

You say that like liars are something rare in the Inquisition. Half our party at least are professional liars and manipulators.

 

That said Bull is fairly blunt and upfront with the Inquisitor. That's where we're getting the intent from.  If you can show me where he lies or manipulates the PC I'd love to see it.

 

And don't bother with the Tal Vasoth. It was propaganda that he fell for which you can call him out on and he acknowledges if you save the chargers.

I think Bull is probably one of the better liars. Listening to his banter with Varric is ****** hilarious and yet ... so revealing. Iron Bull is blunt and honest and up front, but because it suits him.

 

• Varric: How could you possibly be a spy?
• Iron Bull: Well, it's a pretty easy job. I do some fighting, and drinking, and then once in a while I tell Par-Vollen about it.
• Varric: Heh. Where's the sneaking, plotting, the subtle machinations?
• Iron Bull: If you do that, everyone knows you're a spy. Drinking, fighting, writing notes, that's all it really takes.
• Varric: Jeez. You're really the worst Qunari ever or the best. I can't decide.

• Iron Bull: Still waiting for me to do something sneaky and spy-like?
• Varric: I'll see a magical dwarf flying through the sky before that happens.
• Iron Bull: Good. Because I'm supposed to ask about your friend Isabela.
• Varric: See? And I can't still tell if you're shitting me. Sometimes you're so Qunari you make my head hurt.

This is what makes me really believe Iron Bull is so much more intelligent then he lets on. It's beautiful. And if you keep him tied to the Qun, I think that that koolaid does make him unpredictable, because the Qun has his loyalty. I don't really believe that a romanced Inquisitor has more loyalty than the Qun does. I think it would be a tough choice, but I think Bull would go Qun. That's pretty scary.

 

Take him off the Qun-Koolaid and you've unlocked an Iron Bull that's a completely different critter. Suddenly his loyalties are actually his own to decide. You don't have to worry that someday he is going to get taken back to Par Vollen and re-educated, to take away everything beautiful about the big guy.

 

It's also a completely different subject then whether or not Iron Bull uses pelvic sorcery to mind rape people.

[Catwall]

I'm still chuckling over here at the fact that in order for me to go along with the idea of Horribull, I have to start by head-canoning that Dorian is an alcoholic. Like, I'm really sorry that the actual dramatic content in the game isn't enough for you.

[Ryzaki]

It's also a completely different subject then whether or not Iron Bull uses pelvic sorcery to mind rape people.

 

Far more interesting though.

 

That said pelvic sorcery makes me lol. Sounds like something I'd see in a hentai game.

 

That said yeah I'm not sure why people believe Bull somehow feels the need to go full Krogan when Dorian's ass is in sight. Pretty sure Bull's not that desperate or malicious.

 

I'm still chuckling over here at the fact that in order for me to go along with the idea of Horribull, I have to start by head-canoning that Dorian is an alcoholic. Like, I'm really sorry that the actual dramatic content in the game isn't enough for you.

It's more victim points for the Dorian victim bingo!

[Incantrix]

People put way too much thought into the Ironbull/Dorian romance arc. It's quite bizarre really.

[Hazegurl]

I'm willing to accept that head canon. I really am. I'm just not willing to accept that he's a rapist. That he's manipulative or abusive. He doesn't rape the chantry sister who giggles about him. He doesn't rape the nobles that talk glowingly about him in his codex entry. He doesn't rape the kitchen servants or the red-headed elf, or anyone he's ever made himself available to and then followed up on. Even the chantry sister went to Bull. It's his MO. It's how he works. He doesn't return flirting with the Inquisitor and asks for consent like 3 three times before he takes them to bed. The writers probably realized that the if they wrote him any other way, people would run with it to paint him in a bad light. But they did the exact opposite. Bull as a character, lets people come to him. Whether it's how he fights in battle (thank you Cole for that insight), to how he has sex with them.

I don't think he's a rapist so no need to argue that.

 

Manipulative and abusive is debatable. As Solas says (Which I agree) "Even the lowilest peasant may find safety in a thought, but you take even that from them." (might not be word for word) I consider that manipulative and abusive.  Does that apply to Dorian? No. It's just that we do have knowledge that he does abuse and manipulate people mentality. In service to the Qun of course. But he does it. And I can understand why those who romanced him walk away with a problem with him afterwards. Especially if they pick an option to ask to top next time only for IB to reply with some pretty manipulative bullshyt. Which means that he most certainly will use manipulation on his romantic partner if he has to.  Now this is debatable. If you, the player, thinks IB is correct by telling your IQ that they really don't know what they need, then fine. But you being okay with that, does not mean everyone else will be. And it doesn't mean that he does or doesn't do that with Dorian. Funny thing about that whole interpretation business. No one is correct, unless we are a fly on their bedroom wall...which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Sorry.

 

Overall, I get defending him against being called a rapist. But we do have in-game knowledge of him being a liar and manipulator both outside and inside the bedroom. He's certainly not honest as even he himself tells us. If there was any character who needed a "kick out at anytime" button it's him.  The moment he started bragging about how well he lies to people during my first pt I was like, whelp, you gone!

 

Only to not see an option to boot him.

[Ryzaki]

I don't think he's a rapist so no need to argue that.

 

Manipulative and abusive is debatable. As Solas says (Which I agree) "Even the lowilest peasant may find safety in a thought, but you take even that from them." (might not be word for word) I consider that manipulative and abusive.  Does that apply to Dorian? No. It's just that we do have knowledge that he does abuse and manipulate people mentality. In service to the Qun of course. But he does it. And I can understand why those who romanced him walk away with a problem with him afterwards. Especially if they pick an option to ask to top next time only for IB to reply with some pretty manipulative bullshyt. Which means that he most certainly will use manipulation on his romantic partner if he has to.  Now this is debatable. If you, the player, thinks IB is correct by telling your IQ that they really don't know what they need, then fine. But you being okay with that, does not mean everyone else will be. And it doesn't mean that he does or doesn't do that with Dorian. Funny thing about that whole interpretation business. No one is correct, unless we are a fly on their bedroom...which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Sorry.

 

Overall, I get defending him against being called a rapist. But we do have in-game knowledge of him being a liar and manipulator both outside and inside the bedroom. He's certainly not honest as even he himself tells us. If there was any character who needed a "kick out at anytime" button it's him.  The moment he started bragging about how well he lies to people during my first pt I was like, whelp, you gone!

 

Only to not see an option to boot him.

 

Offs.

 

You do realize you can pick no there right?

 

You do realize he flat out says "I felt if you disagreed you'd told me to leave?" right?

 

You do realize after Bull says his "no" to the PC topping he offers you an out and you can end the romance right?

 

He thinks you need something. And if you tell him no that's it. How is that manipulative? Because he won't continue to sleep with a quizzy that doesn't go along with it? The game only has so much dialogue. It's assumed if you don't want to go along with this...you hit the broken heart the devs didn't give me a FWB relationship with Dorian. You don't get a non BDSM relationship with Bull. And where is the lying there?

[KefRayBa]

My two cents here is just to remind people that Dorian is a mage, from Tevinter.  He was a raised noble and I assumed here that he learned a fair share of manipulations and *Grand Game* kind of stuffs, admittedly not the spymaster level but enough to recognise it, hopefully.

 

And, again, he is a fricking Mortalitasi Mage!  If Dorian really desperate to get away from Iron Bull treated him, he would have use magic.  Iron Bull even said that Dorian got too excited and set the curtain on fire once. 

 

As a gay man, I see Dorian's discomfort about being in a relationship openly stem from his upbringing.  He wants the ideal real relationship but learned not to expect it.  I would expected that Iron Bull see through all that flustering and be extra careful with Dorian.  At least in the matter of the heart.  Iron Bull drag Dorian out of his comfort zone to show him that, at least among the Inquisition, it is safe to be with another man.  That's how I see why Iron Bull would be discussing their hookup and really it started out as *Hook. Up.* when Dorian would rather keep mums about it.

[Hazegurl]

Offs.

 

You do realize you can pick no there right?

 

You do realize he flat out says "I felt if you disagreed you'd told me to leave?" right?

 

You do realize after Bull says his "no" to the PC topping he offers you an out and you can end the romance right?

 

He thinks you need something. And if you tell him no that's it. How is that manipulative? Because he won't continue to sleep with a quizzy that doesn't go along with it? The game only has so much dialogue. It's assumed if you don't want to go along with this...you hit the broken heart.

Yes I do, and I think players who feel he is being manipulative should take that out. Heck they should have taken that out with his vague "You don't know what you're getting into" line. However, let's not pretend that the whole "You don't know what you need, I know what you need, and it would be insulting for me not to give you what I know you need.." or whatever he says, isn't manipulative at all.

 

In this case, IB isn't being honest here. He simply does not want the IQ to top him. But instead of just simply admitting that he is incapable of providing that. He tells the IQ that they don't really want that. 

 

It just doesn't work on those who nope out the relationship.

 

And once again, it's debatable. Like I said, if you click yes for whatever reason, whether you really want to romance him or you think he's right, that's your prerogative. It doesn't dismiss other players interpretation of their experience with IB.

[Ryzaki]

My two cents here is just to remind people that Dorian is a mage, from Tevinter.  He was a raised noble and I assumed here that he learned a fair share of manipulations and *Grand Game* kind of stuffs, admittedly not the spymaster level but enough to recognise it, hopefully.

 

He says as much after the Winter Palace when you talk to him.

[Ryzaki]

Yes I do, and I think players who feel he is being manipulative should take that out. Heck they should have taken that out with his vague "You don't know what you're getting into" line. However, let's not pretend that the whole "You don't know what you need, I know what you need, and it would be insulting for me not to give you what I know you need.." or whatever he says, isn't manipulative at all.

 

In this case, IB isn't being honest here. He simply does not want the IQ to top him. But instead of just simply admitting that he is incapable of providing that. He tells the IQ that they don't really want that. 

 

It just doesn't work on those who nope out the relationship.

 

And once again, it's debatable. Like I said, if you click yes for whatever reason, whether you really want to romance him or you think he's right, that's your prerogative. It doesn't dismiss other players interpretation of their experience with IB.

 

The vagueness of the line is pretty bad yes the devs should've had his second conversation first. Regardless no it's not manipulative. The player might not know what's going on after the black screen by the PC does and it's consented to via the dialogue that follows up the sex scene. He states what he thinks is true. If you deny it he doesn't say you're wrong or try to get you to rethink it he backs completely off. He then later admits he felt if he was wrong you'd kicked him out.

 

Where are you getting him just not wanting the quizzy to top him from simply honestly believing the Quizzy does need what he provides? For someone attempting to be manipulative he certainly gives up very easily when you say no.

 

Because the devs didn't make a non BDSM version of the relationship and ended the track when you said no. Bull was wrong in that case and the romance doesn't commence because the devs aren't going to write two variations of the same romance (Edit: Hell four variations actually give there's already variations with the chargers saved/dead) when they were already on a strict word budget.

 

If you click yes it's because your PC does feel he's right. (Whether they admit or not). The rest of the game shows that. If you feel he's wrong. You tell him no and he's shown to be wrong and the romance doesn't start.

[Sui Causa]

I don't think he's a rapist so no need to argue that.

 

Manipulative and abusive is debatable. As Solas says (Which I agree) "Even the lowilest peasant may find safety in a thought, but you take even that from them." (might not be word for word) I consider that manipulative and abusive.  Does that apply to Dorian? No. It's just that we do have knowledge that he does abuse and manipulate people mentality. In service to the Qun of course. But he does it. And I can understand why those who romanced him walk away with a problem with him afterwards. Especially if they pick an option to ask to top next time only for IB to reply with some pretty manipulative bullshyt. Which means that he most certainly will use manipulation on his romantic partner if he has to.  Now this is debatable. If you, the player, thinks IB is correct by telling your IQ that they really don't know what they need, then fine. But you being okay with that, does not mean everyone else will be. And it doesn't mean that he does or doesn't do that with Dorian. Funny thing about that whole interpretation business. No one is correct, unless we are a fly on their bedroom wall...which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Sorry.

 

Overall, I get defending him against being called a rapist. But we do have in-game knowledge of him being a liar and manipulator both outside and inside the bedroom. He's certainly not honest as even he himself tells us. If there was any character who needed a "kick out at anytime" button it's him.  The moment he started bragging about how well he lies to people during my first pt I was like, whelp, you gone!

 

Only to not see an option to boot him.

I think a lot of Solas' problem with Iron Bull is regarding the Qun though. The "You take even that from them" is not actually Iron Bull's personal actions. Solas is referring to the Qun, and Iron Bull is being referred to as "you" because he is the local representative of that. Yes. I definitely agree with you that the Qun is manipulative and horrible. But Iron Bull, even before he becomes Tal-Vashoth, is not keen on what the Qun does to people who don't go to it willingly. He doesn't want the Qun to be spread over Thedas.  So I don't think Iron Bull, even a non Tal-vashoth Iron Bull, would ever try and inflict the Qun on Dorian. His role in the ben-hassrath is not a re-educator, so that's not really his shtick. His role amongst the Ben-hassrath was a problem solver, as explained by Gatt.

 

I also don't think that Iron Bull not letting you top is particularly manipulative either. He is a top. If you are with him, you are roleplaying that you are a bottom, it's your role in that relationship as how it was written. If you don't fit that role, like Ryzaki says, you have plenty of opportunities to walk away, and Iron Bull lets you. (Frustratingly willingly! HE DOESNT SAY A DAMN THING WHEN YOU BREAK UP WITH HIM. ;_; He doesn't batt an eye or look the least bit sad. Curse you Bull!) He doesn't inflict consequences or anything with breaking up with him.

 

So yes, he, as a follower of the Qun, is a pretty scary thing. But Bull compartmentalizes. He does not sleep with people as a qunari follower of the Qun, he sleeps with people as Iron Bull. His training falls in line with his kink, which is figuring out what people want and giving it to them. If you don't agree that that is what he does with the Inquisitor, take instead the evidence of the serving girls he sleeps with. "They're tired of taking orders and feeling unimportant, so I let them bounce on top, tell them their ****** look nice, and everyone is happy." Not accurate quote but yeah. Also, Cole makes very telling comments on Bull's relationship with the Inquisitor. "He submits, but you serve." Is the line he sums up with, after going into graphic detail on how absolutely all of Iron Bull's actions in bed are carefully catered to what the Inquisitor wants. It lends creedence that he does know what your Inquisitor/the people he sleeps with wants, because he is all about figuring that out so that he can give it to them. So, service Dom. It's a beautiful thing, and it's also a pretty amazing thing that Iron Bull manages to foster that under the Qun. I think he'd lose it with enough re-education.

 

Sera basically points out after Iron Bull becomes Tal-Vashoth that because of how Iron Bull lived, in how he drinks and has sex and relationships with his people, etc, that he was already broken away from the Qun. Iron Bull doesn't even argue with her, it's pretty telling.

 

So yes, he's a dangerous character in a lot of ways. If you don't break him from the Qun, I don't think even a romanced Iron Bull is going to have long term loyalties to anyone but the Qun. Especially if he goes back to Par Vollen, because I'm pretty sure he would end up re-educated on the spot. =/ But he compartmentalizes a lot of things, and his relationships are one of those things.

 

• Cole: When we fight, you make them not people. So their death doesn't stick to you.
• Iron Bull: Yes. Picked that up in Seheron. Got to keep it separate. Out here, anything could be a threat. You kill for the team, no questions asked.
• Cole: I see it: a wall of wounds. Nothing on this side has a family.
• Iron Bull: When we're at the tavern, or back home, it goes back to normal. People get to be people again.
• Cole: What if someone attacks you in a tavern?
• Iron Bull: That's when **** gets messed up.

(This is an example of his compartmentalization, it's not just head canon I'm pulling out of my ass, I promise.)

 

I'm starting to be rather scatter-brained putting together these wall of texts, so I apologize.

 

Basically? QUN IS TERRIFYING. Iron Bull, when you meet him, is on a knife's edge. He is drinking the Qun-Koolaid, but he has his own motivations for a lot of things, including the way he deals with people. He has a lot of individuality. It allows him to be the type of lover that he is. The Ben-Hassrath were too eager to keep using their tool. They probably should have re-educated him and retired him. They didn't. They got greedy, and they lost a pretty amazing qunari to my Inquisition because there's no way they're getting him back into their clutches in my games.

 

If you ally with the Qun, well. Iron Bull's kool-aid is gonna catch up with him sooner or later. Probably via re-education.

[Ryzaki]

Eww romancing Bull and keeping him in the Qun. Just why would you even do that :X

 

[KaiserShep]

Eh, I'm largely indifferent. It's not a match I would have guessed, but whatevs. I usually never bothered to have both characters in the party much, so I wasn't even aware that this happened until reading about it here. It wasn't like Garrus and Tali where I walked in on them, which would have been pretty damn awkward with the Iron Bull.

 

But I sincerely wish that the Inquisitor could be the one to walk in on them like Cullen and say "Oh for the love of..."

[Ryzaki]

I'd be indifferent too if not for all the Bull's a rapist/abuser asspulling while Dorian's flaws are glossed over or worse woobified.

[Sui Causa]

Eww romancing Bull and keeping him in the Qun. Just why would you even do that :X

 

Masochism? Ahaha.

 

I toyed with the idea of an Inquisitor that was pretty willing to drink the Qun-Koolaid himself. But...it just doesn't work. If you're looking for a romance with Iron Bull, the Qun can't be involved. If you're just interested in some sexytime relaxation, then I guess a Qun!Iron Bull works. But you're just going to end up as some fond memories that the re-educators will have a field day with when they are breaking Iron Bull's mind.

 

I just got a chill and kind of want to write that. Oh god.

[Hellion Rex]

My two cents here is just to remind people that Dorian is a mage, from Tevinter.  He was a raised noble and I assumed here that he learned a fair share of manipulations and *Grand Game* kind of stuffs, admittedly not the spymaster level but enough to recognise it, hopefully.

 

And, again, he is a fricking Mortalitasi Mage!  If Dorian really desperate to get away from Iron Bull treated him, he would have use magic.  Iron Bull even said that Dorian got too excited and set the curtain on fire once. 

 

As a gay man, I see Dorian's discomfort about being in a relationship openly stem from his upbringing.  He wants the ideal real relationship but learned not to expect it.  I would expected that Iron Bull see through all that flustering and be extra careful with Dorian.  At least in the matter of the heart.  Iron Bull drag Dorian out of his comfort zone to show him that, at least among the Inquisition, it is safe to be with another man.  That's how I see why Iron Bull would be discussing their hookup and really it started out as *Hook. Up.* when Dorian would rather keep mums about it.

Thank you. I think this best describes the relationship.

[Armali]

As a gay man, I see Dorian's discomfort about being in a relationship openly stem from his upbringing.  He wants the ideal real relationship but learned not to expect it.  I would expected that Iron Bull see through all that flustering and be extra careful with Dorian.  At least in the matter of the heart.  Iron Bull drag Dorian out of his comfort zone to show him that, at least among the Inquisition, it is safe to be with another man.  That's how I see why Iron Bull would be discussing their hookup and really it started out as *Hook. Up.* when Dorian would rather keep mums about it.

 

IB has no right to 'drag Dorian out of his comfort zone' nor does he have any idea what Dorian wants, as is shown by the IQ's romance with him. 

 

I can't believe Bioware would write a character like this into one of their games. I am honestly appalled by whoever wrote him (and I think I know who).

[Ryzaki]

Masochism? Ahaha.

 

I toyed with the idea of an Inquisitor that was pretty willing to drink the Qun-Koolaid himself. But...it just doesn't work. If you're looking for a romance with Iron Bull, the Qun can't be involved. If you're just interested in some sexytime relaxation, then I guess a Qun!Iron Bull works. But you're just going to end up as some fond memories that the re-educators will have a field day with when they are breaking Iron Bull's mind.

 

I just got a chill and kind of want to write that. Oh god.

 

That's a bit above machoism don't you think? XD

 

Yeah I play mage qunari too so them drinking the Qun koolaid isn't just counterproductive it makes no sense.

 

DON'T YOU DARE.

 

I don't think I'd stop crying honestly

 

It'd be Clear's bad ending in Re:connect all over again. *rocks back and forth* (Kind of the same thing really. Though Clear was a robot so the reprogramming was a bit more literal ) But no that ending broke my heart for weeks. Freaking tears and snot the whole shebang.

 

_{I'd still read it tho. Just like I still replay Clear's bad ending.}

[Sui Causa]

That's a bit above machoism don't you think? XD

 

Yeah I play mage qunari too so them drinking the Qun koolaid isn't just counterproductive it makes no sense.

 

DON'T YOU DARE.

 

I don't think I'd stop crying honestly

 

It'd be Clear's bad ending in Re:connect all over again. *rocks back and forth* (Kind of the same thing really. Though Clear was a robot so the reprogramming was a bit more literal ) But no that ending broke my heart for weeks. Freaking tears and snot the whole shebang.

 

_{I'd still read it tho. Just like I still replay Clear's bad ending.}

I don't think I could do it. As much as I fricking love writing mind stuff, mind-breaking Iron Bull would be something that would break me faster than I could ever hope to break him.

 

Can you imagine him facing the Inquisitor again? Oh god. D8 THE TEARS AND THE ANGST.

[AresKeith]

IB has no right to 'drag Dorian out of his comfort zone' nor does he have any idea what Dorian wants, as is shown by the IQ's romance with him. 

 

I can't believe Bioware would write a character like this into one of their games. I am honestly appalled by whoever wrote him (and I think I know who).

 

   

[Ryzaki]

I don't think I could do it. As much as I fricking love writing mind stuff, mind-breaking Iron Bull would be something that would break me faster than I could ever hope to break him.

 

Can you imagine him facing the Inquisitor again? Oh god. D8 THE TEARS AND THE ANGST.

 

Oh *comforts*

 

OMG NO WHY DID YOU PUT THAT IN MY HEAD.

 

It'd be worse that than Cole talking about Quizzy's death to Cullen comic Probably the same level of brainwashed Fenris talking to Hawke again (well less so since in that scenario Hawke was a douche and gave Fenris back to Danarius in the first place).