168 réponses à ce sujet

[WizzyWarlock]

It seems to me like the EA Overlords got anxious and wanted the game wrapped up and sent to publishing, so Bioware were forced into writing an ending that they probably didn't want, just to fit things into the time constraints. There can't be any other reason, really. The ending is just bad. I can justify it as Indoctrination, but then there's arguments for and against it, certain things that clash no matter how you look at it. It's just badly written and rushed; obviously so. A poor ending to an otherwise awesome series of games.

[angol fear]

First, bioware had a dead line to write, how could they improvise an ending if they have a dead line to write. I don't see any writer who think of the ending at the very end.Sure you can write the ending at the end but during the whole process of writing the ending get more and more clear. Maybe I'm wrong but it's actually unrealistic to think that they had to write at the very end because EA forced them.

Second, if they had to rush an ending they wouldn't do this kind of ending, they would do an easier ending : something like MEHEM. They would have done the crucible a superweapon that's all. It would make a lot of people happy and in a hurry it would be easier to do. You can dislike the ending, the writing of the ending is something that take more time that "the crucible works, the evil reapers are destroyed, that's all".

Third, Bioware said that EA didn't interfere in Mass Effect 3. Bioware defended their game (If you have an example of someone who was forced to do something and defended the work he didn't like, I'm very curious to see that!). Ray Mizuka said that Mass Effect 3 is Bioware's best game, do you really think that to defend the game he had to go that far if he didn't think what he said?

And finally, you feel the ending rush but if you analyze the structure and understand the developpers intentions, you'll understand why the ending was made this way.

[Undead Han]

 

i believe the in-game Shepard's Dream is just a ...simply dream..PTSD as they say..
and the child in the game's opening was really a real child who died on earth.as evidence by talking to a Leviathan
Indoctrination Theories  in some discussion is way out of control, nitpicky and becoming a conspiracy theory where the solution/answers is simple.

 

 

That was my take as well.

 

Originally perhaps they intended for the dream sequences to be more than they are (prior to development they had planned for a subplot where Shepard became indoctrinated), but in the actual shipped product I don't think the dreams are anything more than a portrayal of PTSD. The child was real, and the Catalyst simply took on the form of someone who had some psychological significance for Shepard.

 

As for the Indoctrination Theory...that was never anything more than one part denial and one part wishful thinking on the part of some fans who were in shock over the original endings. That pet theory was pretty much discredited by the Extended Cut, and when no further DLC provided the big reveal the IT crowd thought was coming. Also at one point Bioware even banned discussion of the IT on this forum. You don't do that if it's the actual plot of your game.

[themikefest]

Bioware put a lot of content in the game that some parts got more attention than other parts. Had 12 more months been given the game might be different than what was released. 

[Ithurael]

I can understand your points OP.

 

And yes, IT was all the rage back then...and it kind of still is. Though, when looking at the codex and the lore we see that IT was not and could not be bio's intention.

 

What angers me is nowadays is how bioware blatantly led fans on into believing in IT in order to quell some nerdrage and gain more sales.

 

http://forum.bioware...o-me/?bioware=1

https://twitter.com/...497612372316160

http://forum.bioware...9#entry11554486

 

because...let's face it...anyone who was satisfied with the ending and the game would be much more inclined to buy Bioware DLC and future titles...and ITers were very much satisfied (even if it was conditionally) because bioware delivered the biggest twist in gaming history!!!

[WizzyWarlock]

That was my take as well.

 

Originally perhaps they intended for the dream sequences to be more than they are (prior to development they had planned for a subplot where Shepard became indoctrinated), but in the actual shipped product I don't think the dreams are anything more than a portrayal of PTSD. The child was real, and the Catalyst simply took on the form of someone who had some psychological significance for Shepard.

See, the problem I have with this is, the Catalyst would have to be inside Shepards mind to be able to pluck out an image for him to perceive. So if he's in Shepards mind, what's he doing in there? How can a supposed AI even do that? Is the Catalyst even real or is this just Shepards imagination?

[Vazgen]

See, the problem I have with this is, the Catalyst would have to be inside Shepards mind to be able to pluck out an image for him to perceive. So if he's in Shepards mind, what's he doing in there? How can a supposed AI even do that? Is the Catalyst even real or is this just Shepards imagination?

TIM was using Shepard as a mindless doll a few moments earlier. Given TIM's indoctrinated state it's quite possible that the image was extracted from that exchange. Especially considering that the kid's memory is not something cherished and hidden away, it's on the surface, the image of Shepard's helplessness and fears.

[Ithurael]

Also...bio's response to IT has been troubling especially around the Citadel. It seems that with all the DLC sold they just kind of discarded IT to the wolves

 

As seen via Ninja Stan's comments here

http://forum.bioware...l-denial-of-it/

 

And Gambol confirming Shep is on the CItadel

https://twitter.com/...187404377001987

 

I mean....IT Served its purpose for bioware. It gave them additional DLC sales and helped quell some of the nerdrage during those very dark and angry days...

[Alamar2078]

I'd say we're looking at equal parts:

 

-- BW's story development process was [IMHO] fatally flawed beyond repair.

    >> Large portions of ME2 and ME3 did not contribute directly to any one meaningful ending

    >> BW had no concrete, fleshed out idea of how to end the series even while they were working on the last game

    >> There were lots of questions that nobody had any idea of how to wrap up or to meaningfully handle

-- There was a lot of external time pressure applied so BW was too panicked to think of better ways to end the series

 

While not satisfying you may be able to at least partially recover from one or two of the above elements but when everything combines you just make it too hard for anyone to create a really satisfying ending.

[Ithurael]

I'd say we're looking at equal parts:

 

-- BW's story development process was [IMHO] fatally flawed beyond repair.

    >> Large portions of ME2 and ME3 did not contribute directly to any one meaningful ending

    >> BW had no concrete, fleshed out idea of how to end the series even while they were working on the last game

    >> There were lots of questions that nobody had any idea of how to wrap up or to meaningfully handle

-- There was a lot of external time pressure applied so BW was too panicked to think of better ways to end the series

 

While not satisfying you may be able to at least partially recover from one or two of the above elements but when everything combines you just make it too hard for anyone to create a really satisfying ending.

 

Not to mention the initial ending was leaked by some a-hole so Casey and Mac & crew had to scrap together a new one ASAP. (though the new ending was really kind of the same as the old one just with more exposition I suppose). They really did the best they could do. They didn't write the initial ending just to be dicks to the fanbase or to 'torch the franchise and run' as some say. I am sure they really did want to give us a amazing ending, the only problem was they just had very little time to do it and had to make due with what they could. IIRC Martin Sheen was doing voicework for ME3 all the way up to November 2011.

 

But the bolded...the bolded is what really did ME3 in IMO. You can throw as much money at a project as you want and have as many people working on it as you like but if you give a ridiculously short timeframe to release something...what do you think is going to happen? ME3 was rushed...and it really does show. Not just in the ending either.

[Alamar2078]

Because large portions of ME2 and ME3 didn't contribute meaningfully to any one ending I think we were doomed to get an ending that was at best "kinda bad".  Rushing the game turned the kinda bad into "unbelievably bad".  Having most of the last game finished before locking down how you're going to end the trilogy is just begging for disaster.

 

Note:  I think it's the combination of things that got us to where we are.  Lack of planning was the dynamite and fuse, rushing was the match.

[Valmar]

See, the problem I have with this is, the Catalyst would have to be inside Shepards mind to be able to pluck out an image for him to perceive. So if he's in Shepards mind, what's he doing in there? How can a supposed AI even do that? Is the Catalyst even real or is this just Shepards imagination?

 

Alternatively you could just say that the catalyst isn't the SAME EXACT kid from Shepard's dreams at all. That there is no mind-reading space magic here, its just Bioware reusing an art asset of the only child model they have. If it was really MEANT to be the same kid and its all in his mind then why is the kid NOT the same? Why is it all whispy and glowing, why does it have two voice overlays?

 

This "how is it the kid, is it in his head, whats going on" issue is only a problem when you make the ASSUMPTION that its actually the kid in the first place. Don't make that assumption and you don't have that problem.

[JasonShepard]

Alternatively you could just say that the catalyst isn't the SAME EXACT kid from Shepard's dreams at all. That there is no mind-reading space magic here, its just Bioware reusing an art asset of the only child model they have. If it was really MEANT to be the same kid and its all in his mind then why is the kid NOT the same? Why is it all whispy and glowing, why does it have two voice overlays?

 

This "how is it the kid, is it in his head, whats going on" issue is only a problem when you make the ASSUMPTION that its actually the kid in the first place. Don't make that assumption and you don't have that problem.

 

Huh. There's an interpretation I hadn't considered. I like it.

 

I'd always gone in with the assumption that, hey, mind-reading tech exists in the ME-universe (see Indoctrination, Domination, Asari mind-melds and Prothean touch-magic). So I had no particular problem with the Catalyst choosing 'a form you are comfortable with' from Shepard's psyche. My version does carry the problem that the Catalyst is capable of getting inside Shepard's head, though, which is a dangerous step towards IT (though I discount IT for entirely different reasons).

 

Your version completely sidesteps the problem. I think I might switch to that mindset for future playthroughs.

[Valmar]

Huh. There's an interpretation I hadn't considered. I like it.

 

I'd always gone in with the assumption that, hey, mind-reading tech exists in the ME-universe (see Indoctrination, Domination, Asari mind-melds and Prothean touch-magic). So I had no particular problem with the Catalyst choosing 'a form you are comfortable with' from Shepard's psyche. My version does carry the problem that the Catalyst is capable of getting inside Shepard's head, though, which is a dangerous step towards IT (though I discount IT for entirely different reasons).

 

Your version completely sidesteps the problem. I think I might switch to that mindset for future playthroughs.

 

Plus, as many people like to point out, Bioware rushed the ending. That fits well with them reusing an art asset. They've reused art assets before in the past, aswell. Also look at the breathing scene that everyone insisted HAD to be on London due to the art assets looking similar. Bioware confirms it was indeed the Citadel. "How did Shepard wake up on London?" was only a problem because people ASSUMED that he was on London and not the Citadel.

 

Look at the Leviathan DLC. The Leviathans used images from Shepard's mind. Were they whispy and glowing? No, they looked 'real'. Shepard even comments on it and mistakenly thinks its the real person instead of a hallucination. Yet he says nothing to the catalyst being the kid from his dreams.

 

The "Art of Mass Effect" book has a section dedicated to the kid and it never shows or mentions to the catalyst. The only reason we think its meant to literally be the same kid is because we, as players, can notice the kid's model lying beneath all those modifications. Using this logic we could say the ME universe is filled with clones. How many times do we see copy/paste models?

 

It COULD be the kid, sure. It isn't unheard of, using images from ones mind is definitely within the ME ruleset. However if we make this assumption it comes with all kinds of added baggage and things that need to be explained. Things like this are what lead to IT. We create these great big conspiracy theories based around one little assumption. We can avoid all that by not making assumptions and accepting the catalyst isn't meant to literally be the same kid.

 

Assuming its the kid opens up plotholes that needs to be explained. Assuming it ISN'T the kid doesn't, thus solving said plotholes since they don't even come up.

 

 

Is Sh

 

Shepard is part synthetic.. Am i right?

 

Yes. Somewhere in the low 30% range if I remember correctly.

 

Somewhat unrelated but I feel like a lot of people tend to forget just how many cybernetics Shepard has because a lot of people are either paragon or cure the scars. Which may be why people felt the glowing blue eyes in the control ending must mean indoctrination. I play renegade with full on scars so seeing Shepard's eyes glow blow doesn't phase me. I'm used to glowing cybernetic eyes at this point.
 

[Dubozz]

Enjoy speculations OP! Lots of them for everyone! Artistic!

 

Spoiler

I know that feel bro. you can also check 4k pages of rage

[Orikon]

Oh look,another "I just finished ME3 thread",let me guess: The OP is bothered by the "last 20 mins of the game that ruined ze entire experience and omgggg what was Casey thinkin' why cant I just have a happi ending wit Tali omg wtf and the story iz broken after you get hit by harbringr"

 

"What about the rest of Priority:Earth?"
 

"It wuz fine just the last 20 minz omggg"

 

Ok,now lets read the OP and see if I was right....

 

--edit--

 

Alright,my bad. 

The last 20 minutes were not a dream/hallucination,as proved by the Extended Cut. In fact,a lot of things supporting the IT theory came from either reused assets by Bioware,bad writing or execution or just the rush to complete the game as soon as possible.

And imo,the Catalyst was never really the worst part of the ending. He fits in fine,but the biggest problem was the terrible execution of the idea they had in mind (lack of explanation,dialogue,the fact that Shepard agrees with everything,or simply that the Catalyst appeared out of nowhere with no previous buildup). If Priority:Earth was done properly with hints throughout the story towards the existence of the Catalyst or if he gained some more insight into the Crucible's design maybe the outrage wouldn't be so bad.

[Ithurael]

Oh look,another "I just finished ME3 thread",let me guess: The OP is bothered by the "last 20 mins of the game that ruined ze entire experience and omgggg what was Casey thinkin' why cant I just have a happi ending wit Tali omg wtf and the story iz broken after you get hit by harbringr"

 

"What about the rest of Priority:Earth?"
 

"It wuz fine just the last 20 minz omggg"

 

Ok,now lets read the OP and see if I was right....

 

swing and a miss lol...kinda

[ImaginaryMatter]

First, bioware had a dead line to write, how could they improvise an ending if they have a dead line to write. I don't see any writer who think of the ending at the very end.Sure you can write the ending at the end but during the whole process of writing the ending get more and more clear. Maybe I'm wrong but it's actually unrealistic to think that they had to write at the very end because EA forced them.

Second, if they had to rush an ending they wouldn't do this kind of ending, they would do an easier ending : something like MEHEM. They would have done the crucible a superweapon that's all. It would make a lot of people happy and in a hurry it would be easier to do. You can dislike the ending, the writing of the ending is something that take more time that "the crucible works, the evil reapers are destroyed, that's all".

 

According to the Final Hours app they were writing the ending at the final hours. Besides, not planning ahead is the motto for the ME series.

 

Writing a MEHEM-esque ending wouldn't necessarily be easier, it would be different, but not easier. I'm not sure what writing your talking about at the ending but most of that stuff is vague, asspulled, minimalist, and sometimes self contradicting -- not exactly quality work.

[Valmar]

@Orikon

 

I respectfully disagree. I felt the catalyst was the most damaging and horrid part of the entire ending. The contradictionyst not only turned the reapers into mindless tools it also completely defeats the entire purpose of the first game's plot.

[Ithurael]

'm not sure what writing your talking about at the ending but most of that stuff is vague, asspulled, minimalist, and sometimes self contradicting -- not exactly quality work.

He means the 'high level' stuff.

 

Ya know. the stuff we were supposed to get and make up on our own?

[God]

Lol at angol fear.

 

There's a lot more to the issue than anyone realizes. Don't assume that you have an answer or that your interpretation is the most sound or valid one.

 

Otherwise...

 

Buzz, buzz, buzz.