168 réponses à ce sujet

[Bakgrind]

@Orikon

 

I respectfully disagree. I felt the catalyst was the most damaging and horrid part of the entire ending. The contradictionyst not only turned the reapers into mindless tools it also completely defeats the entire purpose of the first game's plot.

 

Yup, the catalyst is easily the most destructive part of the game. Especially since it's big reveal was that the Reapers were nothing more than just tools to a solution. Talk about rendering one of the  greatest villainous enemies in rpg sci fi  to mere inconsequential nothingness. And all of that for sake of having an artsy ending. The game would of been so much better had it ended with guns blazing at the  Shepard,Anderson "Best seats in the house" scene.

[WizzyWarlock]

Alternatively you could just say that the catalyst isn't the SAME EXACT kid from Shepard's dreams at all. That there is no mind-reading space magic here, its just Bioware reusing an art asset of the only child model they have. If it was really MEANT to be the same kid and its all in his mind then why is the kid NOT the same? Why is it all whispy and glowing, why does it have two voice overlays?

If you look at the Control ending, pause it just after Shepard grabs the second handle and it switches to a rear view. Look at the kid. He's even wearing the hooded jacket the real kid always wore. It's the same kid, no doubt. There's absolutely no way Bioware would just reuse the exact same model that they've been using all through the game, they spent enough time designing the choice chamber, I'm sure they could have spent a couple of minutes adjusting the child model.

 

Without opening the IT argument, it's whispy and glowing because it's supposed to be presented as an AI, thus it has to look believable as an AI. Stick a real child there and it wouldn't make thematic sense. The voice overlays just tells me further that it's in Shepards head, because the overlaid voices are Shepards, male and female.

[Dubozz]

I kinda agree that Priority Earth execution was awful as well. I waited for Suicide Mission to start...silly me.

[Iakus]

@Orikon

 

I respectfully disagree. I felt the catalyst was the most damaging and horrid part of the entire ending. The contradictionyst not only turned the reapers into mindless tools it also completely defeats the entire purpose of the first game's plot.

Yup.

 

The Catalyst and its explanation certainly is not the only problem.  But it is a major contribution to it.

[Valmar]

If you look at the Control ending, pause it just after Shepard grabs the second handle and it switches to a rear view. Look at the kid. He's even wearing the hooded jacket the real kid always wore. It's the same kid, no doubt. There's absolutely no way Bioware would just reuse the exact same model that they've been using all through the game, they spent enough time designing the choice chamber, I'm sure they could have spent a couple of minutes adjusting the child model.

 

I know there is a hood. This is utterly irrelevant to the point, though. I never said that it was a different model. I know they used the same base model as the child for the catalyst. That doesn't mean they're meant, in the the story, to literally be the same. If it was meant to literally be the same kid then it WOULD be the same kid. The two share a model, sure, but they certainly are not the same. One is 'real' and the other is a wispy specter form projection with two voice overlays over its own. If it was meant to be the same kid it would actually be the same kid. Just as Ann Bryson is the same in the Leviathan vision because she was MEANT to be the same.

 

The catalyst is just a reused art asset in their rushed ending. Just like the rubble Shepard wakes up in that people kept insisting must be on London.

 

And no, they did not spend "enough time" designing the choice chamber. They also DID spend a few minutes adjusting the child model (probably no more than that, even). You can't honestly look at the too and tell me they look EXACTLY the same. They do not. One is a wispy ghost with three different voices going on. Thats the SAME as the kid on earth and the dreams? Really?

 

 

Without opening the IT argument, it's whispy and glowing because it's supposed to be presented as an AI, thus it has to look believable as an AI. Stick a real child there and it wouldn't make thematic sense. The voice overlays just tells me further that it's in Shepards head, because the overlaid voices are Shepards, male and female.

 

 

The catalyst doesn't make thematic sense anyway! According to IT it uses the form of the child to emotionally effect Shepard (though Shepard never acknowledges its the child) but yet even though their purpose is to leverage the child's image they don't actually USE the childs image, instead we get wispy blue ghost hologram. Even the Illusive Man's homogram was better than that.

 

The fact that the voice overlay is both male and female Shepard is actually proof that it ISN'T indoctrination. Femshep does not exist in my playthrough, why would there be a female Shepard voice in my head? If it was JUST the voice of your current Shepard, okay, maybe thats something. It isn't though.

 

You give Bioware way, way too much credit in the ending. I wish I could be as happy with the ending as you are. Or have as much faith in them for that matter.

 

 

 

Yup.

 

The Catalyst and its explanation certainly is not the only problem.  But it is a major contribution to it.

 

Well, personally, I had no problem with its explanation if we're on about its actual motivation for the reapers. Their motivation fit well enough in the story, imo. The catalyst itself does not.

[Nitrocuban]

I'm kinda late to the party ..

 

Kinda?

[Ithurael]

Lol at angol fear.

 

There's a lot more to the issue than anyone realizes. Don't assume that you have an answer or that your interpretation is the most sound or valid one.

 

Otherwise...

 

Buzz, buzz, buzz.

 

LOL God...you are a hoot!

 

While I honestly agree with everything you say...and I have to say that is saying a lot. I might need clarification on this one (teh bolded)

 

When it comes to indoctrination, at least, the answer is clearly in the codex (the...bible if you will of the mass effect universe). The Codex tells us what is/is not possible in the ME universe and how things work. It doesn't have to make real world sense, it just have to have some kind of technobabble that relates to the fictional universe.

 

On that note, relating ONLY to indoctrination, the codex is very explicit on how it can/cannot work. While I respect everyone's opinion (or I try to) I cannot help but say that sometimes...the opinion is horribly misplaced. Maybe because they didn't read the lore all the way through or maybe because they only cherry pick certain parts and run with it. But, if the codex says that a person can't turn into a lizard and then in the game someone turns into a lizard...that breaks the codex lol.

[Iakus]

LOL God...you are a hoot!

 

While I honestly agree with everything you say...and I have to say that is saying a lot. I might need clarification on this one (teh bolded)

 

When it comes to indoctrination, at least, the answer is clearly in the codex (the...bible if you will of the mass effect universe). The Codex tells us what is/is not possible in the ME universe and how things work. It doesn't have to make real world sense, it just have to have some kind of technobabble that relates to the fictional universe.

 

On that note, relating ONLY to indoctrination, the codex is very explicit on how it can/cannot work. While I respect everyone's opinion (or I try to) I cannot help but say that sometimes...the opinion is horribly misplaced. Maybe because they didn't read the lore all the way through or maybe because they only cherry pick certain parts and run with it. But, if the codex says that a person can't turn into a lizard and then in the game someone turns into a lizard...that breaks the codex lol.

 

While I generally agree, I have to point out, in all fairness, that Bioware has been known to ignore thier own codex at times.

[WizzyWarlock]

Also...bio's response to IT has been troubling especially around the Citadel. It seems that with all the DLC sold they just kind of discarded IT to the wolves

 

As seen via Ninja Stan's comments here

http://forum.bioware...l-denial-of-it/

 

And Gambol confirming Shep is on the CItadel

https://twitter.com/...187404377001987

 

I mean....IT Served its purpose for bioware. It gave them additional DLC sales and helped quell some of the nerdrage during those very dark and angry days...

It's not like they're going to admit to IT being the real interpretation. I mean, when the original game came out and people saw three endings after all the choices they made throughout the series, people were seriously annoyed and threatening to never buy another Bioware game again. If they came out and said Shepard was being Indoctrinated, Control/Synthesis were choices the Reapers wanted you to make.. well, that means there's only one 'correct' ending to the game. You really think they're going to admit to that?

 

In fact, they probably panicked when they saw the response to the endings and IT making ground, so tried to run the idea into the ground with the extended cuts. Three choices caused a storm, can you imagine if people came to the conclusion that there was really only one choice?

[von uber]

The emotional whiplash you get from best seat in the house to the lift and resultant sequence (for me being one of wondering why it was so dusty all of a sudden to puzzlement and a slight sense of bewilderment) doesn't help matters.

[Undead Han]

I kinda agree that Priority Earth execution was awful as well. I waited for Suicide Mission to start...silly me.

 

I always thought it was odd that Bioware didn't go with a mission similar to the Suicide Mission for the finale of ME3. From the time ME2 released up until the release of ME3, people were raving about that mission and asking for something similar in the next game. 

[Cheviot]

I always thought it was odd that Bioware didn't go with a mission similar to the Suicide Mission for the finale of ME3. From the time ME2 released up until the release of ME3, people were raving about that mission and asking for something similar in the next game. 

They did include a new Suicide Mission, except they extended it across the whole game.  The survival of many of the principal characters depended on whether you'd gained their loyalty and sorted out their personal problems, plus a few other checks, like in ME2.

[Undead Han]

They did include a new Suicide Mission, except they extended it across the whole game.  The survival of many of the principal characters depended on whether you'd gained their loyalty and sorted out their personal problems, plus a few other checks, like in ME2.

 

By something similar to ME2's Suicide Mission I mean a mission where you have the entire squad involved and have to make personnel decisions that have consequences. I think that was by far the most popular aspect of the Suicide Mission.

 

Not that the SM wasn't without flaws. I've always criticized the decision to provide an option where the entire team could make it through without casualties. I think the SM, while one of the best missions of the series, would have been better if it was similar to Virmire in tone. The best run should have been one where you suffered the minimum amount of casualties, rather than escaping unscathed.

[themikefest]

We do get a bit of a suicide mission on Earth. Everyone running to the beam while being vaporized by Harbinger and making no attempt at seeking cover.

 

I will add my own theory. I call it NETT. Not Enough Time Theory. Had more time been given for ME3, it may of been better than what was released.

[Cheviot]

By something similar to ME2's Suicide Mission I mean a mission where you have the entire squad involved and have to make personnel decisions that have consequences. I think that was by far the most popular aspect of the Suicide Mission.

Ah, I see what you mean.  There were hints of that in Priority: Earth, where you could have a final conversation with almost every surviving crew member, but I agree they could have had more of a role.

[Orikon]

My God am I terrible at keeping up with threads. You take a break for a couple of hours and there's already an entire new page.

Ok...

@Orikon

 

I respectfully disagree. I felt the catalyst was the most damaging and horrid part of the entire ending. The contradictionyst not only turned the reapers into mindless tools it also completely defeats the entire purpose of the first game's plot.

 

I can't agree with that. Why is it so difficult to think that both Sovereign and Harbringer could've simply lied about their "individuality"? I'll quote myself from an earlier thread:

 

Regarding "the story being broken after you meet the Catalyst",I disagree. The Catalyst clearly explains who he is,what the purpose of the Reapers is,whats the state of the Crucible,what choices Shepard has,what will happen,and how these choices will impact the galaxy. There is nothing broken about it.

 

And Sovereign saying that each Reaper is a nation and that every Reaper is an individual can be explained in a couple of different ways:

 

1.) Sovereign lied. Simple as that. Which can explain why both Harbringer and Sovereign (all Reapers in fact) stress that they are so "superior" and "beyond our understanding" whenever talking to somebody. Its simply easier to say that you are beyond someone's comprehension than to go and explain your entire philosophy. Plus,when an advanced race conquers an entire planet and than says that you can't even grasp the nature of their existence (despite the fact that it can be summed into three sentences) it creates fear in both organics and synthetics.

 

2.) The Catalyst made them think that for easier control.

 

 

The existence of the Catalyst doesn't mean the Reapers are all mindless drones. He never says he controls them directly,but instead he gives them a purpose and a task to carry out every 50k years.

 

 The game would of been so much better had it ended with guns blazing at the  Shepard,Anderson "Best seats in the house" scene.

 

No,no,and just no. For a trilogy that is all about your choices,that had major story-changing decisions at the end of the first two games,a linear ending where the Crucible docks,all Reapers die and you see the credits roll would cause even bigger complains. Even if they put some variations based on EMS (lets say that the Crucible never manages to dock,or it backfires,etc.) it would still come down to the fate of the galaxy being determined by mere numbers with no direct input from the player whatsoever.

 

I kinda agree that Priority Earth execution was awful as well. I waited for Suicide Mission to start...silly me.

I always thought it was odd that Bioware didn't go with a mission similar to the Suicide Mission for the finale of ME3. From the time ME2 released up until the release of ME3, people were raving about that mission and asking for something similar in the next game. 

 

Even if Bioware went for a "Suicide Mission" style Priority:Earth the fans would likely complain that its a copy-paste from ME2. Priority:Earth needed to be large scale,5-6 hour long campaign to retake the planet from the Reapers with major decisions,Paragon/Renegade interrupts and big variations based on decisions from the entire trilogy that would determine how the battle goes. Mass Effect 3's story as a whole builds up to this final,big ass battle with the Reapers to conclude the trilogy;everything you do from collecting War Assets to making a peace between the Q./G. its all to build up your army for the assault on Earth.

And not to mention Bioware's "Retake Earth" marketing campaign which alone hyped the final mission.

 

In the end you get a boring cinematic with copy-pasted Alliance Cruisers with no variations whatsoever (2 second shots of the Q./G. fleets and the DA model replacement don't really count) and an even more boring horde mode in London with the exact same soundtrack playing all the time.

If Priority:Earth was a mind-blowing mission with its own separate 2-3 month development time,trust me,you wouldn't be complaining about the Catalyst,just like you didn't mind the boss battle in ME2 so much since the rest of the ending was so amazing.

 

The catalyst is just a reused art asset in their rushed ending. Just like the rubble Shepard wakes up in that people kept insisting must be on London.

 

And no, they did not spend "enough time" designing the choice chamber. They also DID spend a few minutes adjusting the child model (probably no more than that, even). You can't honestly look at the too and tell me they look EXACTLY the same. They do not. One is a wispy ghost with three different voices going on. Thats the SAME as the kid on earth and the dreams? Really?

 

 

The fact that the voice overlay is both male and female Shepard is actually proof that it ISN'T indoctrination. Femshep does not exist in my playthrough, why would there be a female Shepard voice in my head? If it was JUST the voice of your current Shepard, okay, maybe thats something. It isn't though.

 

You give Bioware way, way too much credit in the ending. I wish I could be as happy with the ending as you are. Or have as much faith in them for that matter.

 

Well, personally, I had no problem with its explanation if we're on about its actual motivation for the reapers. Their motivation fit well enough in the story, imo. The catalyst itself does not.

 

Totally agree. The decision chamber was completely rushed.

Regarding the kid,no,its not the same kid,but the Catalyst decided to use his looks and voice to appeal to Shepard (which was pointless,but whatever....),and he reason behind Mark and Jennifer's voices were simply a lack of time to hire voice actors.

 

Well, personally, I had no problem with its explanation if we're on about its actual motivation for the reapers. Their motivation fit well enough in the story, imo. The catalyst itself does not.

 

 

Let me show you a picture from the art book:

 

That was the original decision chamber. Much better then the A,B,C chamber with mysterious pathways coming out of nowhere,right?

In the original design,all the Reapers were even supposed to break off from the battle with Sword and turn towards Shepard to watch his decision.

That's what I'm talking about. If the Catalyst wasn't so rushed,if the encounter with him was given actual development time or if the devs simply put more thought into what they were doing he wouldn't cause such a huge outcry. Not to mention that having Anderson or squadmates with you Mass Effect 1-style would make things much better as well.

 

The meeting with the Catalyst just needed a much better design and more creativity outside of just "Yeah look,I control all the Reapers,the Crucible just docked and here are your A,B or C choices. Don't ask any questions."

 

The idea was fine,the execution was not.

And can you really blame Bioware themselves for the ending? No. If EA gave them more time and money,you can bet your ass the ending would be spectacular.

 

And finally, you feel the ending rush but if you analyze the structure and understand the developpers intentions, you'll understand why the ending was made this way.

 

I happen to agree with you on this. Its true.

 

 

We do get a bit of a suicide mission on Earth. Everyone running to the beam while being vaporized by Harbinger and making no attempt at seeking cover.

 

I will add my own theory. I call it NETT. Not Enough Time Theory. Had more time been given for ME3, it may of been better than what was released.

 

 

Exactly.

[Ithurael]

It's not like they're going to admit to IT being the real interpretation. I mean, when the original game came out and people saw three endings after all the choices they made throughout the series, people were seriously annoyed and threatening to never buy another Bioware game again. If they came out and said Shepard was being Indoctrinated, Control/Synthesis were choices the Reapers wanted you to make.. well, that means there's only one 'correct' ending to the game. You really think they're going to admit to that?

 

In fact, they probably panicked when they saw the response to the endings and IT making ground, so tried to run the idea into the ground with the extended cuts. Three choices caused a storm, can you imagine if people came to the conclusion that there was really only one choice?

 

If you think that if bio would face MORE negative reaction if they said "IT was what we were going for" I would seriously rethink that man. IT adds the hope of something greater to come. Because in the most popular elements of IT there is more to be had (EG the central conflict is to be resolved) whereas in other elements of IT the lore (eg ME1 and 2 and 3) are not rendered moot.

 

What do you think is worse:

- Bio releases a game with a trick ending that only has one choice (out of three variable choices) but eventually releases the ending via DLC that allows your choices to matter in the finale (IT Dream)*

- Bio releases a game with a trick ending that only has one choice (out of three variable choices) (IT real)**

- Bio releases a game with RGB that renders all your choices moot and blatantly contradicts developer and writer pre release statements and breaks the lore of the previous two games (Literal)

 

*= Everything is a complete fabrication and the central conflict is not resolved post destroy choice

**=Everything is a complete fabrication but the central conflict IS resolved post destroy choice or post any choice

 

Which one of those would garner a more negative reaction? Because I think it would definitely be the latter than the former two.

 

IT exists because fans - when they saw the ending - and noticed all the lore errors, plotholes, inconsitancies, retcons, and other oddities - they in a desperate bid to make sense of it - stated it was indoctrination, because - and I quote - "There is no way Bioware could screw up THAT badly...right?". Without even reading or fully comprehending the whole codex, they clung to one line:

 

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind"

 

Thus the concept of ghostly hallucination became equal to a dreamscape which became equal to a false reality which then became equal to the entire ending sequence which thus explains away all of the issues that fans had with the ending.

 

The problem...the codex tells us...it LITERALLY tells us that indoctrination does NOT create dreamscapes, and the by the time you see a hallucination your limbic system is already under the reaper control or at the very least compromised. Once control is established...there is no 'breaking', there is no battle of wills and there is no stopping it. You are done for. If the ending really was indoctrination, it would have been shepard getting indoctrinated no matter what choice. /endofline, fin, finito, over. No breaking it, no magic destroy choice that stops the attempt. It would just be shepard getting indoctrinated and then the reapers win. Do you understand? Every choice would have lead to indoctrination, there would be no magical choice that appears - because reasons - that magically stops indoctrination.

 

The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing, that has been proven to hold off or even repair indoctrination is thorian spores. As evidenced by Shiala, but even then she still hears reaper whispers.

 

I know you love the idea of reaper indoctrination...but in the end...the codex (which is the foundation of the ME universe) does not correlate to the idea. IT is great as a fan interpretation but it falls apart when faced with the scrutiny against the lore and a dash of critical thinking.

[angol fear]

Totally agree. The decision chamber was completely rushed.

Regarding the kid,no,its not the same kid,but the Catalyst decided to use his looks and voice to appeal to Shepard (which was pointless,but whatever....),and he reason behind Mark and Jennifer's voices were simply a lack of time to hire voice actors.

 

 

 

Let me show you a picture from the art book:

 

That was the original decision chamber. Much better then the A,B,C chamber with mysterious pathways coming out of nowhere,right?

In the original design,all the Reapers were even supposed to break off from the battle with Sword and turn towards Shepard to watch his decision.

That's what I'm talking about. If the Catalyst wasn't so rushed,if the encounter with him was given actual development time or if the devs simply put more thought into what they were doing he wouldn't cause such a huge outcry. Not to mention that having Anderson or squadmates with you Mass Effect 1-style would make things much better as well.

 

The meeting with the Catalyst just needed a much better design and more creativity outside of just "Yeah look,I control all the Reapers,the Crucible just docked and here are your A,B or C choices. Don't ask any questions."

 

The idea was fine,the execution was not.

And can you really blame Bioware themselves for the ending? No. If EA gave them more time and money,you can bet your ass the ending would be spectacular.

 

 

 

Mass effect 3 has been delayed, Bioware had more time that they had first! There's a moment a game has to be released!

Do you know that the scene with the A.I. was supposed to have more questions and answers? They finally decided to write less questions and answers. The ending gives the feeling that it's rushed, but did you read what Mike Gamble said before Mass Effect 3 release? They knew that the ending wouldn't please everyone. When someone tweet about something like that it's because they're aware of what they are doing, and they are proud of what they did. It's quite curious to be proud about something rushed, isn't it?

The ending wasn't supposed to be spectacular and it could not. Take a look at Thessia and the missions atfer. You can imagine that Priority : Earth was supposed to be spectacular too but they didn't do it this way (listen to the music, it always reveals some of the intentions). Mass Effect 3 isn't a game with the american valour. And while Mass Effect ending is epic, it's not the american/ hollywood vision of epic. Epic isn't spectacular. The ending, the tone, the way it's written till the end is coherent. Having a spectacular ending would be incoherent, artificial, it would be written just to please people.

And for squadmate with you, did you notice that Mass Effect 3 was a game about being a leader and the loneliness of the leader?

[WizzyWarlock]

The problem...the codex tells us...it LITERALLY tells us that indoctrination does NOT create dreamscapes, and the by the time you see a hallucination your limbic system is already under the reaper control or at the very least compromised. Once control is established...there is no 'breaking', there is no battle of wills and there is no stopping it. You are done for. 

But you keep overlooking the main word in the codex with regards to indoctrination. "Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions."

 

It's not a forced action, it's a suggestion to do something. If the mind is dead set against the idea then no amount of suggestion is going to help. An example, "Hey, Ithurael, I suggest you go jump off the nearest cliff.". The only difference with a Reaper suggestion is that control over the limbic system makes you more susceptible to them, so where you would normally say no to shooting your commanding officer, they might make the suggestion more real by making him out to be some evil indoctrinated undercover agent.

[Ithurael]

But you keep overlooking the main word in the codex with regards to indoctrination. "Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions."

 

It's not a forced action, it's a suggestion to do something. If the mind is dead set against the idea then no amount of suggestion is going to help. An example, "Hey, Ithurael, I suggest you go jump off the nearest cliff.". The only difference with a Reaper suggestion is that control over the limbic system makes you more susceptible to them, so where you would normally say no to shooting your commanding officer, they might make the suggestion more real by making him out to be some evil indoctrinated undercover agent.

 

 

For Gods sake:

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain = This is what it does

 

through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods = this is the method it uses

 

The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions. = The indoctrination is when the limbic system is controlled. THAT is indoctrinated! Once they have control, there IS NO undoing it. It is irreversible. Once the limbic system is controlled by the reaper the most you can do is snap out of it for a few seconds to shoot yourself. Or, become one with a thorian.

 

You are, essentially, putting the cart before the horse. You think that the reaper would start suggesting which would THEN lead to indoctrination and control over the limbic system. In fact, it is quite the opposite. The reaper gains control over the limbic system first THEN it starts suggesting.

 

And again (for the bajilllionth time) once control is established, once it has that control in place, you can say whatever you want and the person will do it - as shown by the game - without any hesitation. Only strong willed individuals are able to snap out of it but inevitably will fall back into it in seconds.

 

And the main word in the codex is NOT "suggestions"....it is: control

 

And control happens BEFORE the suggestions are made and after the psychological and physical conditioning.

[Alamar2078]

While I normally agree with a lot of people in the thread I contend the even IF Bioware intended for IT all along and admitted that then they'd have more than fan backlash to worry about.  If EA legal got word of what was going on I'd be willing to bet they'd force BW to retreat behind the "artistic expression" defense instead of having them admit the truth.

 

If the IT theory would have been paid DLC [Like Asura's Wrath] I'm confident that there would have been law suits and possibly worse.

[CaIIisto]

^^ Agree - 'real' ending by way of paid DLC would have been commercial and moral suicide.

At best IT might have been something that was considered but discarded, but I doubt even that.

[Ithurael]

@Drazen

The codex: for the sake of discussion is here:

============================================================================================================================

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

============================================================================================================================

 

 

The codex also mentions that an element of indoctrination is electromagnetic or infrasonic noise. When you introduce an electrical current onto the limbic system, it produces auditory (Anderson stating he followed you up, yet he is not behind you) or visual hallucinations (the little boy, etc).

 

Those aren't dream sequences. They are Reaper induced hallucinations. Harbinger is just toying with you early on and getting you warmed up. Isn't quite ready to fully indoctrinate you. The hallucinations in the game are just foreshadowing for the ending.

Now, I have NEVER heard of an electrical current causing audatory or visual hallucinations when introduced into the limbic system.

As cited here, when an electrical current was introduced to the limbic system of humans it caused stimulus akin to orgasm...not bad really. If this is how the reapers got people to follow them there wouldn't be three games IMO

https://books.google... system&f=false
 

 

I did think the fact that Shepard looking like a husk was kind of a dead giveaway the Reapers were trying to indoctrinate him. I mean, Illusive Man was indoctrinated, and he looks like a husk. Saren was indoctrinated and he looks like a husk. Shepard also has the same eyes as Illusive Man and Saren, but not in the destroy ending. Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

I think there is enough hints to suggest that is what they were shooting for, without the game flat out saying Shepard was being indoctrinated. Indoctrination is subtle after all.

You would have to note that shepards eyes are synthetic (after he was rebuilt). Shepard also has indoctrinated looking eyes when in full renegade in ME2 (except orange instead of blue).

Renegade shep

http://img4.wikia.no...rd_renegade.jpg

"indoctrinated" eyes

https://encrypted-tb...2V6EO7NL35H1kCg

Also note, Benezia was fully indoctrinated and I don't see anything on her

http://files-cdn.for...957a68884b0.png

The eyes are that way for people who have synthetic parts not necessarily indoctrinated - as shown by EDI:

https://encrypted-tb...TDxfKfJkXQaF-QY

 

And also, indoctrination does nothing to your eyes. Huskification and Indoctrination are completely different processes. Huskification is basically where a dead body is reanimated by way of reaper nanites and reaper tech.

 

 

If you remember Harbinger tried to indoctrinate Shepard in the Arrival DLC. So if indoctrination was a "done for" thing, Shepard would have been "done for" during Arrival. He wouldn't even made it to ME3, yet he does.

 

Harbinger has a special interest in Shepard, and will string him along for as long as it needs. Right up until the end of ME3.

 

 

If you also remember Arrival was an OPTIONAL DLC. If shepard didn't do it Hackett sends an alliance team to blow up the relay. That is a CRITICAL event to have optional. If shep did participate in arrival it is a wonder and a half that he was not indoctrinated by Object Rho as he was there for a few days. And since he was there for a few days -assuming it did indoctrinate him - his limbic system would be compromised which would then bring up the issue of vendetta not noticing it when at chronos.
 

 

 

Arrival was set up to be a bridge DLC to fill the gap between ME2 and set up the story for ME3. Some believe the indoctrination process is very slow for Shepard, and not fast like it was for Paul Grayson. The codex states the slow version of indoctrination can take months or years (lingering in the background, subtle). Some believe Shepard was very slowly being indoctrinated since ME1 on Eden Prime.

 

Shepard was exposed to sovereign in ME1 and yes, the people did complain of a loud noise emanating from the ship. But no where did it suddenly create a dreamscape that tricked shepard into choosing 'indoctrinated' choices...

The problems with IT are as follows:

- It doesn't follow the codex

- IT relies too much on speculation and optional events to take place (eg arrival)

- IT places the entire trilogy in jeopardy (as it could all have been a hallucination once shepard go to the citadel in the final battle of ME1)

- Indoctrinating shepard in the final act makes no sense...there is no use for it. The reapers already have the might of the galaxy down on them and they will win anyway. They don't need an indoctrinated agent like shep to bring down nations...they are already doing that very well.

If you want to argue that the choices are real and that the catalyst kid is trying to convince you into choosing Control or Synthesis (thus changing the galaxy in the way the reapers want) then...ok. But that isn't indoctrination. Indoctrination does not convince, nor does it trick. It literally forces people to do what the reaper wants because the reaper already has control over their limbic system by way of the electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise.

And finally:
 

 

 

When he first ran into Sovereign, one of the people stated its humming sound was boring into his skull, making it impossible for him to think. Kind of like a loud buzzing noise, sort of like this.

 

THAT is the indoctrination segment! The TIM scene. Even the background OST is called 'Indoctrinated'. You see ALL of the signs of indoctrination, you see all of the effects and in the end, shepard either breaks free and kills TIM, Convinces TIM to kill himself or dies.

No where in the catalyst scene are there:

- Headaches

- Oily shadows

- Reaper buzzing

And if you are going to say "Oh that is because it is all a hallucination and not real", well I hate to break it to you but  one: indoctrination does not create entire special rooms that look like they are in space and two by the time you see hallucinations like that your limbic system is under their control and you lose anyway.

IT helped fans cope with the rushed ending...and bioware saw something to mitigate the nerdrage and increase sales.

[Iakus]

^^ Agree - 'real' ending by way of paid DLC would have been commercial and moral suicide.

At best IT might have been something that was considered but discarded, but I doubt even that.

Broken Steel wasn't commercial or moral suicide.