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#1
Bacus

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Greetings fellow ME fans.

 

I have a question I wanted to ask everyone regarding Exploration.

 

From what i have read out in other posts, exploration is a must have for the next ME, but at the same time it should be totally different from that we have seen on DA:I

Therefore I would like to ask what is the specifics as to what is that you would consider the best exploration system for Mass Effect: Dentist

 

 

FYI: I am pro exploration, and hated the fact of the filler stuff on DA:I, but I would like to read other opinions first.



#2
Cheviot

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How can it be different from exploration in DA:I? They'll give you large maps and you'll explore them, just like in DA:I.



#3
Farangbaa

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You're going to be disappointed then, OP.

Frostbite engine is much better for a game like ME than for DA though. ME is, whether you like it or not, a shooter at heart. Frostbite 3 is a shooter engine. Do the math ;)

#4
SimonTheFrog

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So, here's what i would like to do in a Mass Effect game (concerning exploration):

 

I want to have a vague mission goal that says something like: "the key to unlocking this ancient star-chart must be buried somewhere in those ruins of an old alien race" found on that planet.

Next step would be a drop off onto some hostile, uncharted alien planet with Not-shep and her team as the first alliance members ever setting foot on. So, no map with blinking do this and do that dots, just evil, awesomelooking planet, vast and unexplored.

 

My team starts to walk forward, only guided by some vague ping into the direction of the ruins. If i'm in a hurry, i head straight to that ping and ignore that cave or that apearantly alive massive structure to the right. I find to entrance to the ominous-looking ruin, turn on the flash-lights, carefully listening to sound and watching for traps (Think of the first alien-film!).

 

Or, if i have time, i ignore the ping for now and start investigating that cave. I find skeletons of alien species there (*codex*-bling!!! and XP). Then i head to that massive structre to the right which is hard to get to. First i need to find a way. Once i'm there i realize it sends off a weird signal which seems to be connected to the moon of that planet. This triggeres a quest for later when i explore that moon where i will find an abandoned lab with bla bla bla...

 

On my way i collect some ores for research and upgrades and some more microbes and plants for research XP points. Cool stuff. Occasionally i run into hostile indigenous life forms, not very intelligent but good enough to put up a decent fight.

 

Etc. etc...


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#5
pdusen

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I'll take virtually anything over what passed for exploration in ME1.



#6
Bacus

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How can it be different from exploration in DA:I? They'll give you large maps and you'll explore them, just like in DA:I.

 

Thank you Cheviot, my idea is to ask how would you like your exploration in the next mass effect.

 

 

You're going to be disappointed then, OP.

Frostbite engine is much better for a game like ME than for DA though. ME is, whether you like it or not, a shooter at heart. Frostbite 3 is a shooter engine. Do the math ;)

 

Psyche, I hope you are correct sir. While I enjoy playing Dragon Age games, the Mass Effect Universe is right in my heart. I am trully hopefull for the next installment.

But beyond that, what would you like to see regarding exploration?



#7
Cheviot

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So, here's what i would like to do in a Mass Effect game (concerning exploration):

 

I want to have a vague mission goal that says something like: "the key to unlocking this ancient star-chart must be buried somewhere in those ruins of an old alien race" found on that planet.

Next step would be a drop off onto some hostile, uncharted alien planet with Not-shep and her team as the first alliance members ever setting foot on. So, no map with blinking do this and do that dots, just evil, awesomelooking planet, vast and unexplored.

 

My team starts to walk forward, only guided by some vague ping into the direction of the ruins. If i'm in a hurry, i head straight to that ping and ignore that cave or that apearantly alive massive structure to the right. I find to entrance to the ominous-looking ruin, turn on the flash-lights, carefully listening to sound and watching for traps (Think of the first alien-film!).

 

Or, if i have time, i ignore the ping for now and start investigating that cave. I find skeletons of alien species there (*codex*-bling!!! and XP). Then i head to that massive structre to the right which is hard to get to. First i need to find a way. Once i'm there i realize it sends off a weird signal which seems to be connected to the moon of that planet. This triggeres a quest for later when i explore that moon where i will find an abandoned lab with bla bla bla...

 

On my way i collect some ores for research and upgrades and some more microbes and plants for research XP points. Cool stuff. Occasionally i run into hostile indigenous life forms, not very intelligent but good enough to put up a decent fight.

 

Etc. etc...

So the difference between DA:I and what you want for NME is that they get rid of map icons and instead of a quest marker they make the scan thing have a larger range?



#8
Vortex13

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So, here's what i would like to do in a Mass Effect game (concerning exploration):

 

I want to have a vague mission goal that says something like: "the key to unlocking this ancient star-chart must be buried somewhere in those ruins of an old alien race" found on that planet.

Next step would be a drop off onto some hostile, uncharted alien planet with Not-shep and her team as the first alliance members ever setting foot on. So, no map with blinking do this and do that dots, just evil, awesomelooking planet, vast and unexplored.

 

My team starts to walk forward, only guided by some vague ping into the direction of the ruins. If i'm in a hurry, i head straight to that ping and ignore that cave or that apearantly alive massive structure to the right. I find to entrance to the ominous-looking ruin, turn on the flash-lights, carefully listening to sound and watching for traps (Think of the first alien-film!).

 

Or, if i have time, i ignore the ping for now and start investigating that cave. I find skeletons of alien species there (*codex*-bling!!! and XP). Then i head to that massive structre to the right which is hard to get to. First i need to find a way. Once i'm there i realize it sends off a weird signal which seems to be connected to the moon of that planet. This triggeres a quest for later when i explore that moon where i will find an abandoned lab with bla bla bla...

 

On my way i collect some ores for research and upgrades and some more microbes and plants for research XP points. Cool stuff. Occasionally i run into hostile indigenous life forms, not very intelligent but good enough to put up a decent fight.

 

Etc. etc...

 

 

 

This is the way to do exploration (IMO). 

 

I would also like to include the point that we are on an alien planet; most of which contain no atmosphere, or one that is deadly to most Citadel species; BioWare shouldn't shy away from making the very environment hostile. Not just hostile in the sense of lots of little mobs to attack the player, but a caustic atmosphere or the crushing silence of a vacuum.

 

Some of the best exploration moments for me in ME 1 was moving across a barren landscape completely devoid of any signs of life; only the sounds of my Mako cruising along the rocky soil, and then suddenly a Thresher Maw bursts from the ground, or a rocket from a Geth Trooper flies at me from out of nowhere.

 

 

 

As for things that BioWare should avoid doing, I would have to say the biggest one would be: don't plop us down on a map and show us all the possible quest and collectable locations on our mini map. That isn't conductive to good exploration, or even to simply enjoying the handcrafted environment. If I see all the possible side quests and points of interest marked on the map from the start, and I know that there is nothing else to discover, I am not going to wonder around the map taking in the sweeping vistas, or marveling at the architecture. At that point it becomes a matter of logistics; what is the most optimized line I can plot between me and the objective marker; instead of taking in the scenery and exploring things naturally.

 

DA:I's problem; aside from the horrendous fetch quests, and side quests having very little in the way of content or meaningful impact; was that the biggest hyped feature of exploration and discovery was very sterile compared to the organic exploration done by games like the Elder Scrolls.


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#9
SNascimento

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It shouldn't be totally different from DAI. DAI handled exploration very well. It shortcomings were that it had too many fetch quests, some as idiotic as going to get an animal that was lost and "hold his hands" untill you cross half the map back to the farm. That shouldn't be in Mass Effect. Going to point A just to a item is hardly interesting. Also, DAI open world nature resulted in a very unfocused story which a lot of the times felt unconnected to what you're doing. 

But DAI also got things extremely right. For one, the visuals. The places were very pretty and I ****ing can't wait for the glory of space in the next Mass Effect. Just imaging how beautiful the planets will be makes me giggle. There were also some side quests that were as well designed as the main ones. They were also very integrated to the main plot or to the bigger DA lore. In special one with the above ground dwarf city, which involved a whole big region and was also connected with the villain's forces. So it made sense for you to be there. 

ME2 handled secundary missions very well, ME1 would have too, if not for the copy and paste environments which made all missions feel like the same. So I'd say NME should just look for ME2 and the best of DAI and build from there. And remember that maybe a quest that ask you to find a missing ring in an entire planet is not really interesting. 


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#10
MrFob

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Relevant thread.

I think we had a nice discussion about that very topic there. Some good ideas to be found, too IMO.

 

To reiterate my last post in this thread, I hope for diversity. I want to go into a new system and have no idea if I'll encounter a huge uncharted planet, a small N7 mission, something to scan (not too much of that please) or something else. As long as the game can surprise me and doesn't let me fall into a routine, I am fairly happy.

 

Also, I agree with Simon (you know, that frog). Quest markers - especially those that are in territory you haven't even been to yet - are poison for exploration.

 

But again, it's all in that other thread.


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#11
Bacus

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Relevant thread.

I think we had a nice discussion about that very topic there. Some good ideas to be found, too IMO.

 

To reiterate my last post in this thread, I hope for diversity. I want to go into a new system and have no idea if I'll encounter a huge uncharted planet, a small N7 mission, something to scan (not too much of that please) or something else. As long as the game can surprise me and doesn't let me fall into a routine, I am fairly happy.

 

Also, I agree with Simon (you know, that frog). Quest markers - especially those that are in territory you haven't even been to yet - are poison for exploration.

 

But again, it's all in that other thread.

Agreed, i know there are other posts, but i did not want to tarnish the original discussion (about filler content) I wanted to ask fellow players how would the specific of the exploration would be for them



#12
Tonymac

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One thing that I would like BioWare to consider in the exploration department is replayability.  Once explored all of these maps will be the same.  So, if a very large portion of the game is exploration and we want to run it all over again it could get tedious.  There should be balance between exploration and action and squad banter and dead enemies dropping goodies.  

 

Also, I hope that exploration proves to be a very dangerous business.  Gunless Makos lend me to believe that this will play more like the Sims or something tedious.  Nasty surprises that are best dealt with by applying large amounts of firepower, grenades, biotics and tech explosions is the way to go.  I'm not buying the game if its all about walking around in a park and counting cumulus clouds and hearing chirping birds.  There had better be something nasty hiding in the shadows with gnashing teeth and an unending hunger to eat tourists. 



#13
Nitrocuban

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ME1 had weapon modding, which was a great idea but kinda bad executed ingame.

In ME2 Bioware completly cut weapon modding and improved other parts of the game.

In ME3 they brought back weapon modding and finally it was great.

 

I think they will do the same with planteray exploration / Mako driving in ME4: Take the good idea they had for ME1 and make it an actually great part of ME4' gameplay.


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#14
Vortex13

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ME1 had weapon modding, which was a great idea but kinda bad executed ingame.

In ME2 Bioware completly cut weapon modding and improved other parts of the game.

In ME3 they brought back weapon modding and finally it was great.

 

I think they will do the same with planteray exploration / Mako driving in ME4: Take the good idea they had for ME1 and make it an actually great part of ME4' gameplay.

 

 

I hope that BioWare leaves in the ability to get out of our Mako whenever we want in ME:N. I want the exploration side of things to be one seamless gameplay mechanic; no 'Mako only' segments. 

 

 

Part of the beauty of ME (for me) was being able to climb out of the Mako whenever and wherever you liked; even if the game never intended Shepard to go on foot for a particular area. Nothing was quite as satisfying as engaging Thresher Maws or Geth Colossi on foot, or engaging a pirate base's defenses on foot.  The overall layouts of the maps may have been lackluster, but I loved how ground and vehicle combat both worked in the same area, and both functioned (Mako patching issues aside) very well. 

 

 

It was disappointing when the Hammerhead DLC for ME 2 only had specific levels to drive around on, and you could never leave the tank; except to load into non-vehicle areas. DA:I's mount system was even more disappointing, as it not only removed your companions' banter while you used it, but it was also just a lousy speed increase; no horseback combat, no unique gameplay elements, just a 'move faster' toggle.

 

 

For ME:N, I would like to see the Mako fully realized as a tangible part of gameplay, not be an afterthought or some throw-away 'movement toggle'. I want the various upgrades to have more impact than a cosmetic swap of models or colors. Etc. 


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#15
Drone223

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If there is going to exploration on hostile environments/vacuum of space all the characters should wear fully sealed suits not breather masks. There is no way a breather masks will protect anyone from a corrosive atmosphere or prevent toxic gases from entering the skin or other openings in the body. Not to mention kinetic/biotic barriers offer no protection from said aspects of a hostile environment.


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#16
Vortex13

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If there is going to exploration on hostile environments/vacuum of space all the characters wear fully sealed suits not breather masks. There is no way a breather masks will protect anyone from a corrosive atmosphere or prevent toxic gases from entering the skin or other openings in the body. Not to mention kinetic/biotic barriers offer no protection from said aspects of a hostile environment.

 

 

This is a big part the ME:N that BioWare needs to address, not just in terms of exploration, but in terms of the lore of the setting.

 

 

I don't care how big of biotic badass you think you are, your blood is going to boil out of your everything and your lungs are going to burst if you walk around in a vacuum with nothing but a breath mask.


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#17
Vilegrim

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This is a big part the ME:N that BioWare needs to address, not just in terms of exploration, but in terms of the lore of the setting.

 

 

I don't care how big of biotic badass you think you are, your blood is going to boil out of your everything and your lungs are going to burst if you walk around in a vacuum with nothing but a breath mask.

 

 

depends whether Kinetic barriers can keep air in, or can be tuned to grip hold of the skin, like the next gen spacesuits that do not have air in any area apart from the helmet.



#18
Drone223

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depends whether Kinetic barriers can keep air in, or can be tuned to grip hold of the skin, like the next gen spacesuits that do not have air in any area apart from the helmet.

Remember the codex states that kinetic barriers offers no protection from toxic gases, extreme temperatures and corrosive environments. So a fully sealed suit is still going to be the only thing that makes surviving those environments possible.

#19
Cheviot

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If there is going to exploration on hostile environments/vacuum of space all the characters wear fully sealed suits not breather masks. There is no way a breather masks will protect anyone from a corrosive atmosphere or prevent toxic gases from entering the skin or other openings in the body. Not to mention kinetic/biotic barriers offer no protection from said aspects of a hostile environment.

 Weird thing is that Bioware already have the solution, but haven't used it.  You know that helmet that Joker wears when the first Normandy is destroyed in ME2? Use them instead of breather masks.



#20
Drone223

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Weird thing is that Bioware already have the solution, but haven't used it. You know that helmet that Joker wears when the first Normandy is destroyed in ME2? Use them instead of breather masks.

The helmet looks transparent so that would be a step in the right direction even then it's a bit silly that joker isn't wearing a fully sealed suit. It's not good practice to put too much faith in kinetic/biotic barriers that can easily fail.



#21
Han Shot First

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I think the key is only creating as much game world as you are able to fill with interesting or meaningful content. I think with DA:I they were far too ambitious, created too much space to explore, and ended up having to fill much of it with quests that either had little or no story. Don't sacrifice a focus on story and characters just for the sake of massive explorable maps. 


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#22
Swahili Playboy

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So, here's what i would like to do in a Mass Effect game (concerning exploration):

I want to have a vague mission goal that says something like: "the key to unlocking this ancient star-chart must be buried somewhere in those ruins of an old alien race" found on that planet.
Next step would be a drop off onto some hostile, uncharted alien planet with Not-shep and her team as the first alliance members ever setting foot on. So, no map with blinking do this and do that dots, just evil, awesomelooking planet, vast and unexplored.

My team starts to walk forward, only guided by some vague ping into the direction of the ruins. If i'm in a hurry, i head straight to that ping and ignore that cave or that apearantly alive massive structure to the right. I find to entrance to the ominous-looking ruin, turn on the flash-lights, carefully listening to sound and watching for traps (Think of the first alien-film!).

Or, if i have time, i ignore the ping for now and start investigating that cave. I find skeletons of alien species there (*codex*-bling!!! and XP). Then i head to that massive structre to the right which is hard to get to. First i need to find a way. Once i'm there i realize it sends off a weird signal which seems to be connected to the moon of that planet. This triggeres a quest for later when i explore that moon where i will find an abandoned lab with bla bla bla...

On my way i collect some ores for research and upgrades and some more microbes and plants for research XP points. Cool stuff. Occasionally i run into hostile indigenous life forms, not very intelligent but good enough to put up a decent fight.

Etc. etc...

To be honest, I would hate that game. The problem with that kind of gameplay is that it isn't really story driven, which is what makes mass effect games what they are. The story. It would be fun for a little bit, but I would think it would get insanely boring soon after the 3rd time doing it. I would love for there to be a little bit of that in the story, or have it be a side thing that's irrelevant to the story(for the most part)but if it was the whole game, it just wouldn't feel like mass effect.

#23
Han Shot First

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To be honest, I would hate that game. The problem with that kind of gameplay is that it isn't really story driven, which is what makes mass effect games what they are. The story. It would be fun for a little bit, but I would think it would get insanely boring soon after the 3rd time doing it. I would love for there to be a little bit of that in the story, or have it be a side thing that's irrelevant to the story(for the most part)but if it was the whole game, it just wouldn't feel like mass effect.

 

I agree. I think at that point we would have arrived completely at Skyrim-in-space. I understand why the Elder Scrolls games are popular, they just aren't my thing. And I'd hate to see Bioware go down a road where the game world was the main draw rather than the characters populating it. In short, I'd prefer more Mass Effect in my Mass Effect.  B)


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#24
RoboticWater

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To answer why exploration for Mass Effect, we have to answer what exploration even is.

 

It isn't open world.

 

Ever since the popularity of the Elderscrolls series, many have gotten the idea that exploration = big open spaces. That's not entirely correct. Open worlds facilitate exploration, but aren't it's sole proprietor. While we might find wandering around a fully rendered environment to be more responsive and rewarding, exploration can be found in the tiniest of vignettes and the quaintest of conversations. 

 

I know that within the context of this thread and the larger debate, we're probably defining exploration as "adventuring in larger environments which hold a combination of the main game and side content," but considering the topic on an abstract level is the only way to truly understand why Mass Effect needs exploration and why that exploration doesn't necessarily need to be on foot.
 
With that said, I want to discuss what the general benefits of exploration are. 

 

Choice and Agency

This is the obvious benefit of exploration. Letting us do what we want, when we want. It lets us project ourselves onto the player character and feel directly connected to game world. It gives us variety and allows us to think intuitively. It adds replay value gives the player a real sense that the game they're playing is their game. Players should get as much agency as possible, but only when its to the game's benefit.

 

Forcing the player down a specific path may be necessary to plot development, and the act in itself can send a powerful thematic message. Opting for linearity can produce consistent quality and potentially greater depth.

 

Exploration needs to be a balance of the two sides, giving players enough agency to feel connected and engaged, but not to the point where focus is lost entirely and meaning gets dashed along the minutia of every choice. 

 

Discovery

Let's face it, finding stuff is cool and in game design, it's an incredibly effective reward system and story telling device. For one, it makes the player feel like a super-sleuth. Every trinket he or she finds is theirs. They earned the right to see it by going off the beaten track turning over each individual stone. It can also hide the seams of a game, showing the player pertinent information without shoving them along an amusement park ride. Most importantly, discovery establishes a universe of interconnected objects and events which culminate in a broad, yet interesting lore.

 

So yes, exploration is some thing BioWare should strive for, so when I criticize open-world, know that it's because I want an effective game, not simply a linear one. I want BioWare to tighten their scope, because vast environments and aimless wandering aren't necessarily conducive to good exploration. Here's what I think the next Mass Effect should aim for:

 

Good Design Is Deliberate Design

Some may disagree, but I think choice purely for the sake of choice generally isn't good game design. No, choices don't always need to be life altering or directly related to plot or even make a modicum of sense, but they should have a good mechanical or thematic excuse. 

 

By deliberate, I don't mean linear. Although those often get piled together, exploration doesn't have to be at odds with depth or deliberate game design. This video has a relatively painless (if long) explanation about why, but it boils down to one question "what do they eat?" In other words "why and how is this here?" Choice is an aspect to exploration, not an excuse. The conclusion to your argument can't be "because it gives the player more options," because that's how we get fetch quests.

 

Every environment, distraction, and element of gameplay should give back to the universe as a whole, if only in a small way.   

 

Don't Make It Gamey

While respawning enemies and collectibles certainly give the player something to do, they can trivialize everything they represent. I don't want to shoot faceless mooks in yet another pointless camp while collecting yet more featureless bits of something useless. Boring or not, they're obvious videogame tropes and undermine any sense of credibility gained by the open environments. I should be fighting Derek and his gang of jerk wads who were so recently slumbering in their distinctively magenta colored encampment and collecting the audio diaries of Derek's poor father whose political background forced his entire family into a life of crime. 

 

The same goes for any repetitive tasks. I'm willing to rescue a wounded quarian during a side mission, but if I'm asked to do the same exact thing somewhere else, I'll just get tired of playing the game. I realize certain design aspects are unavoidable so at the very least, try to hide the "gamey-ness" and give each bit of content a distinctive (hopefully fun) twist. I can't possibly stand more shameless fetch quests.

 

Everything Bows the Core Mechanics

Mass Effect is a third person shooter, and unless anything has changed recently, it should act like one. BioWare had a bit more slack with DA:I, where cover, mobility, and line of sight aren't very large concerns. At the very least, every combat environment should facilitate a good firefight. There are plenty of ways an open area can work with the core mechanics, but there's also plenty of ways it can get in the way. I don't want any fight to take place in a boring open field.

 

Don't Stretch Yourself Thin

Another leading cause of lame content. I'd rather have a puddle sized ocean than an ocean sized puddle. One of the first things I learned about game design was lilt the scope. BioWare's no indie studio, but they can fall into the same traps. Keep things keen, condensed, and deliberate when possible.

 

Don't Forget the Narrative

This should be obvious, but I'll say it anyway. BioWare's greatest asset is a good story and they need to use it. As I said earlier, exploration isn't directly at odds with a deliberate narrative, but it certainly is easier for details to get lost and scattered across a bigger environment.

 

So far, I don't think anything I've said directly condemns open-world gameplay. It's certainly a valid approach to game design, but not one I think Mass Effect would benefit from. Ultimately, I want to make it easy on BioWare. So far they haven't had a perfect track record with exploration, side missions, and fetch quests, and spreading their resources across a wider scope isn't going to fix that. I want Mass Effect to get the exploration it deserves, so I think BioWare needs to start with depth and pack as much detail as the can in a smaller, more forgiving landscape.

 

I do hope BioWare might expand eventually, but history has only proven how poorly BioWare scales. As I said, open up the world to exploration, but keep it small and keep it deliberate.


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#25
SimonTheFrog

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To be honest, I would hate that game. The problem with that kind of gameplay is that it isn't really story driven, which is what makes mass effect games what they are. The story. It would be fun for a little bit, but I would think it would get insanely boring soon after the 3rd time doing it. I would love for there to be a little bit of that in the story, or have it be a side thing that's irrelevant to the story(for the most part)but if it was the whole game, it just wouldn't feel like mass effect.

 

Haha... yeah i wrote that and started to think about it some more, later.

 

I'm usually a "slow" gamer. I take my time, observe (and marvel at) the environment, take in the atmosphere and enjoy being in the game world. Therefore I'd appreciate a slow-paced gameplay with "nothing" to do than observing, walking, listening. This only works in unknown and potentially hostile and dangerous environment (Otherwise it can feel like a walking simulator very quickly of couse).

But I can see how that would be boring or annoying for people that appreciate more fast-pased action oriented gameplay. So, it's a matter of taste and i shouldn't say "BioWare: make it so" but more like "that's something i'd like to experience". Especially in combination with the other stuff that ME offers.

 

The thing is, what I really would like to see in a sci-fy game would this sense of discovery. When you meet an alien life-form and you don't know what they are, hostile or not, intelligent or not. First contact-scenarios are so exciting, even if it with dog-like creatures. And then you can talk with your squad, decide on the action and add role-playing to the mix.

 

Anyway, i digress.

 

The major difference to DA:I, or one of the many, is really the illusion of realism or suspension of disbelief. DA is pure fantasy which usually comes with a lot of non-sense that is accepted because it's about other things like power-fantasies, combat tactics, character development etc. and all set in a fantasy world with obscure rules and laws of physics. And that has a huge impact about what feels right for exploration. Respawning enemies feel ok (as they are running combat stats and loot containers anyway), minimap with all its information feels ok because why not etc.

 

ME is a lot stricter... or started off that way. It got less so in ME2 and ME3 especially. So, a lot of rules about who in the world can do what or knows what at a given time is supposed to be much closer to our every-day understanding.

 

For example that means: unknown territory is either unknown, so no mini-map clues until you discovered something by proximity, or the territory IS known, in which case you're not exploring but fetching or assaulting something.

Or hostiles don't just respawn. Hell, they don't even "patrol" around aimlessly. I mean, who does that in real life?!

 

And alien planets are not densely populated by points of interests. That's not how the universe works ;)

 

For me, realism is absolutely not the opposite to awesome gameplay as many make it sound. But it can lead to a less insta-gratifying gameplay where more patience is required, less "comfort".

 

Not sure if the youngsters among us want that :P