235 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

You're right, but the templar complains because he feels the Inquisition is hindering the Templars in, what he thinks, are their duties. The mages complain because they don't live comfy enough or try to escape because they feel unjustly oppressed when the Inquisition conscripts them.

It felt different to me.

You have a mage who wants better accommodations for the mages, as opposed to a templar who wants free reign with mages who are working for the Inquisition. It's certainly different, but I find the prospect that the templar wants control over fellow members of the Inquisition rather frightening, particularly when you consider Cullen's comment about templars having "dominion over mages by divine right".

She sure does and my opinion of Vivienne ist not much higher than my opinion about Fiona. I was speaking about the mages that follow her. Those that work with the Inquisition without complaining or throwing temper tantrums.

We never get to know the mages who follow Vivienne.

[Bigdoser]

You have a mage who wants better accommodations for the mages, as opposed to a templar who wants free reign with mages who are working for the Inquisition. It's certainly different, but I find the prospect that the templar wants control over fellow members of the Inquisition rather frightening, particularly when you consider Cullen's comment about templars having "dominion over mages by divine right".


We never get to know the mages who follow Vivienne.

Agreed the templar conversation made me go wth man? While the mage one was more of well guy you gotta start getting used to working with people and the outside world your outside your tower bubble now. You gotta deal with it as cass says. 

[keesio74]

The term "Mages vs Templars" is a little too simplistic here. It is "rebel mages" vs "red templars". There are members of both sides who are more in the middle. Remember that choosing the Mage quest is about helping specifically the rebel mages. If you choose not to help them, it doesn't mean you don't want to help the mages. It means you choose to not help the radical faction of mages that broke away. I see myself "pro-mage". But I don't fully support the rebel mages.

[Grieving Natashina]

Bias against the templars?  Seriously?  I can't see it.  Of course, much of the game had some of the bigger NPCs passing the Idiot Ball around like a game of Hot Potato.  No one came out of that looking good.   I haven't gone Templar-side yet; I plan on it after the hotfixes for Patch 3 come out.

 

I can say that I also found Fiona irritating, and I haven't read The Calling yet.  I was neutral about her, despite some of the complaints about her (stuff like being Alistair's mom and curing the Warden taint.)  I'm not neutral anymore and as someone pointed out, she gets away scott free.

 

My opinion of the leaders of the Rebel Mages and the Red Templars, and about the two groups in general hasn't changed at all.  They are both idiots, and with the exception of the Broken Circle quest in Origins, it always comes down to this question:  "Which group is acting the least idiotic in this game?"  

 

I've picked mages for RP reasons.  My Cadash wasn't very familiar with magic (she smuggled lyrium, she didn't study about it,) so she figured that fighting magic with magic would work well.  My current character is a human mage that's pro-Circle, but did take in the mages.  It made sense for her.  For my next planned character, my human pro-Templar/Templar character, she would see the Templars more favorably.

 

Still, as far as myself as a player, and as far as this game goes?  Well, Fiona allows herself to believe the lies of a Teviniter magister, who one of the more obviously evil characters I've seen in awhile that was human.   She does have no consequences really for her actions overall.  Her getting exiled from Ferelden didn't have any weight to me as a player.  If you didn't know who she was prior to this game, it wouldn't really matter if she was exiled or not.  Plus, that's not a local accent obviously, so it wasn't like she was being banished from a place she really considers home. 

 

Meanwhile, the Lord Seeker allows himself to get possessed by a demon.  These are supposed to be the leaders of some of the more powerful organizations of Thedas at the moment.  Fiona was a leader in her own right prior to the events of the game, and you'd figure that the Lord Seeker would have been old/smart enough to reject a demon's offer.  I mean, I know he was a replacement, but he was still a senior Seeker.  Oh yeah, that's real smart. 

 

I see the people behind those groups, the mages and templars that are just folks trying to do the best with the cards they've been dealt.  Their leaders are sodding jackasses.  It isn't mages or templars that I disliked siding with.  It's more that I keep having to choose between leaders like Fiona or Orsino or Meredith or the Lord Seeker (didn't know about Barras until later,) which makes both groups seems like power-hungry morons.

 

They both need better leaders for the next game.  Me, I'm glad I prefer rogues.  I play other classes, but that's where my heart is.

[TobiTobsen]

You have a mage who wants better accommodations for the mages, as opposed to a templar who wants free reign with mages who are working for the Inquisition. It's certainly different, but I find the prospect that the templar wants control over fellow members of the Inquisition rather frightening, particularly when you consider Cullen's comment about templars having "dominion over mages by divine right".

 

The templar himself never mentions anything resembling divine right or free reign, as far as I remember. He complains that there are mages who, according to him, committed "heinous" crimes and are now fighting for the Inquisition. If he is right and they actually have committed crimes, then it's not unreasonable of him to complain to his allies/superiors. In the end he still accepts Cassandra's "deal with it" and nothing ever comes of it.

 

The mage on the other hand complains about the fact that they are lodged like everybody else. Why shouldn't they be?

I understand that the mages are in a fish out of water situation, but that doesn't change the fact that his "concerns" are rather petty and unreasonable. Nor do they give the mages any reason to attack Inquisition soldiers in the conscription route.

I doubt that they would get a better deal if the Inquisition would've left them to be judged by the monarch of Ferelden.

[Panda]

I feel like this as well. I mean pretty much all Divines are pro-mages at least and they start reforming Circles and templars alot, some even disbanding these orders.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

I don't think there's a strong bias against the Templars. All groups were influenced by Corypheus including the Wardens equally in my opinion and the underlying theme since Dragon Age 1 is that Magic must be controlled. If any thing a bit more of a bias against mages. It was the Magisters who tried entering the Golden City as we are told at the very beginning of the game. As Vivienne professes, magic must serve man and not rule over. Man's pride in believing himself more than Gods is what's to blame.

Since the 1st Inquisition this is all in life that Mages and Templars know. Cassandra explains it best when she fights with the one Templar when you ally with them. All they know is Mage hunting. Up til the present age it's finally reached a boiling point where the original "rules" combined with lack of following them and the various agendas from both sides with Anders blowing up the chantry.

That's where our inquisitor comes in to set a new precedent or re-inforce the old. I think this game did a better job of blurring the lines of what is the right thing to do. You don't get to please everyone. I feel like smacking Solas everytime he sighs when I ally with the Wardens. Not many characters in the game are forgiving. I also personally sided with the Templars all 3 games except declaring the right of annulment of Feraldan's circle of magi. Even my Mage Hawke who romanced Anders sided with the Templars and made him stay to clean up what they could at Kirkwall. Having his mother killed by blood magic and all that was going in Kirkwall how could he not in my story anyway.

It's all subjective though which side is in the "right". For me it all comes down to the pride of man and "what (that) pride has wrought." Everyone is guilty in some shape or form in this game in the way they are subject to their own personal agendas. I like the power the inquisitor wields as well as being this blank slate that you ultimately decide what you think is best for Thedas.

[Barquiel]

I don't know if there is any intentional bias by the writers (probably not), but siding with the mages was one of the easiest decisions in each game for me. No matter how many "good" templars the writers introduce, the circles are broken and problematic at best, and abusive at worst. But my main reason is the right af annulment, which is basically a right to commit indiscriminate murder against mages irrespective of the guilt or innocence of the individual mages in question. That is never acceptable under any circumstances imo...and the templars practiced it for centuries. We have it in DA:O, DA2 and DA:I. I mean, we find the journal entry about Dairsmuid in the same tavern we meet Fiona...and I can understand why she is desperate. In addition you have tevinter spies who infiltrated the village as refugees, telling the mages that the Templars are reorganizing for a full-out attack on their disorganized and severely weakened number...and the only alternative is to join Alexius.

[Anvos]

Well the Templars are at a natural disadvantage since you can replace Templars by training new warriors and giving them philters.  Mages on the other hand can't be replaced since its a biological trait and the only way a normal can come close to a mage is to allow themselves to be possessed (or risk hemoraging out your everything to have lyrium branded onto you).

[Creator Limbs]

I purposely side with the Templars in all Dragon Age games.

Because no one can make me feel like an ass for my decisions.

Nice try Bioware.

[Korva]

My opinion of the leaders of the Rebel Mages and the Red Templars, and about the two groups in general hasn't changed at all.  They are both idiots, and with the exception of the Broken Circle quest in Origins, it always comes down to this question:  "Which group is acting the least idiotic in this game?"

 

Pretty much this, yes. Both groups have their good and bad sides, so I'm basically sympathetic towards anyone trying to make the best of it, or just to get away and find peace.

 

Meanwhile, the Lord Seeker allows himself to get possessed by a demon.

 

That's because he went over the edge and joined a doomsday cult when he learned the truth about the Seekers. He thought the world is so corrupt there's no saving it, so let it go down in fire and hope the Maker starts over with a clean slate. As far as villains go, I have a measure of sympathy for Lucius because he does have a point -- there is corruption everywhere -- and I'm glad he is not a moustache-twiling evil-for-evil's-sake guy. Doesn't make what he did any less inexcusable, of course, but if Bioware had put more emphasis on the "faith" theme, Lucius could have joined the likes of Leliana, Corypheus, Cassandra and Mother Giselle in exploring more deeply what the end times combined with strong belief and/or a severe crisis of faith can do to the minds of the deeply faithly.

 

For example, my own view is that Templars were a position of authority and therefore to me should be held to a higher standard.

 

Oh yes, no argument there. That is, after all, the same reason why I despise Fiona so much. As Cole's personal mission shows, not only did the abusive templars cause a lot of harm to the mages they were supposed to protect, they also created more monsters from their own ranks via peer pressure and covering each other's arses. If the Knight-Captain or Knight-Commander in charge isn't a decent and caring sort who cracks down HARD on that sort of thing, a few bad apples among the templars can bring the whole system down.

[thats1evildude]

but you have to choose between killing Fiona, who, by the way, is the mother of one of DAO's potential love interests, but also someone who we're far more acquainted with through the books

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Eyes_Only]

I always side with the mages.

 

In DAO I really didn't feel as if the game was forcing me to hate Templars. Their cause was just and the seriousness of the demon threat in the circle tower was very high. I didn't feel that by siding with the mages or Templars was coming down to a personal preference between the two. However since my first character was a mage, I felt the circle needed to be saved. So I did. But it was not due to me thinking the Templars were bad people.

 

However in DA2, the story made it VERY clear that in Kirkwall there was an issue. On every turn you were subjected to the evils of both sides. Templars killing mages for being mages. And mages using forbidden magic to either fight back/survive or simply to be powerful. In Act 2 your forced more into taking a side or staying neutral. The death of your mother at the hands of a mage bringing home all to real and painful, just how deep this issue goes. In the end I always sided with the mages as they seemed to be rebelling for a just cause. They were pretty much slaves to the Templars who ruled over them under the blind gaze of the chantry.

 

In DAI I sided with the mages because I simply did not like how much of a bully the Templars had become. The mages were reaching out to me. Fiona asking me to come visit them in Redcliffe. The Templars however with their "You'll get nothing from us because you are nothing. We don't value you at all or consider you important. blah blah blah" until I close a few rifts and suddenly they want to be best buds.

 

No thanks.

[Helmetto]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

You're right. Totally not a bad thing to murder the King of Fereldan's mom or anything.

[keesio74]

You're right. Totally not a bad thing to murder the King of Fereldan's mom or anything.

 Assuming he is king.... or even alive

[Ranadiel Marius]

You're right. Totally not a bad thing to murder the King of Fereldan's mom or anything.

When you are saving him from learning he is half moron on his mother's side, I'd consider it a courtesy to him....well at least if he wasn't a drunk in my game. Actually now that I think about it he probably was in Redcliffe in my world when Fiona kicked the Arl out and got tossed out along with the Arl.

[JumboWheat01]

Wait wait... Fiona is Alistair's mother?  Doesn't that like totally disagree with what was said in Origins?  It's said, several times, that Alistair's mother was a serving girl.  And considering her relatively young appearance, that would mean she had him as a really young kid herself.  And don't magical abilities usually make themselves obvious at extremely young ages?  Like prepubescent ages?  Do elves just pop out ready to go or something?

 

And if she wasn't so young, how the heck did she either hide her magical talent with little to no training or only have it manifest so extremely late?

 

Mind confusion is at full tilt.

[Helmetto]

Wait wait... Fiona is Alistair's mother?  Doesn't that like totally disagree with what was said in Origins?  It's said, several times, that Alistair's mother was a serving girl.  And considering her relatively young appearance, that would mean she had him as a really young kid herself.  And don't magical abilities usually make themselves obvious at extremely young ages?  Like prepubescent ages?  Do elves just pop out ready to go or something?

 

And if she wasn't so young, how the heck did she either hide her magical talent with little to no training or only have it manifest so extremely late?

 

Mind confusion is at full tilt.

It's in The Calling. Link to wiki here

 

Its why she bothers to ask about Alistair after he told her to take her **** and her mages and get the **** out.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Wait wait... Fiona is Alistair's mother? Doesn't that like totally disagree with what was said in Origins? It's said, several times, that Alistair's mother was a serving girl. And considering her relatively young appearance, that would mean she had him as a really young kid herself. And don't magical abilities usually make themselves obvious at extremely young ages? Like prepubescent ages? Do elves just pop out ready to go or something?

And if she wasn't so young, how the heck did she either hide her magical talent with little to no training or only have it manifest so extremely late?

Mind confusion is at full tilt.

Short version, retcon. Long version, crappy retcon that made the whole sister quest was complete and utter bunk.

[Korva]

I don't see how the question of whether someone has used their reproductive equipment impacts on either their worth as a character or on their actions in a totally unrelated matter like the mage-templar war. It takes far, far more to be a parent than just doing the mattress mambo and getting an "oops!" result from it. Fiona isn't Alistair's mother any more than Maric is his father because neither of them lifted so much as a finger for him in any of the ways that matter: love, care, guidance, sacrifice, and so on. Though Maric was worse in that regard since Fiona could not reasonably have kept the baby either as a Warden or as a Circle mage.

 

And yes, the retcon is really stupid and begs the question of what the point of his personal mission in Origins is supposed to be.

[Ziggy XT]

Wait wait... Fiona is Alistair's mother?  Doesn't that like totally disagree with what was said in Origins?  It's said, several times, that Alistair's mother was a serving girl.  And considering her relatively young appearance, that would mean she had him as a really young kid herself.  And don't magical abilities usually make themselves obvious at extremely young ages?  Like prepubescent ages?  Do elves just pop out ready to go or something?

 

And if she wasn't so young, how the heck did she either hide her magical talent with little to no training or only have it manifest so extremely late?

 

Mind confusion is at full tilt.

 

 

Maric (Alistair's Father) and Fiona's relationship was covered in a book called "The Calling". I'm not sure if it is ever truly confirmed or not but between the book and some of Fiona's statements in DA:I it is pretty heavily implied.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ge:_The_Calling

 

^ wiki about the book.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Maric (Alistair's Father) and Fiona's relationship was covered in a book called "The Calling". I'm not sure if it is ever truly confirmed or not but between the book and some of Fiona's statements in DA:I it is pretty heavily implied.

http://dragonage.wik...ge:_The_Calling

^ wiki about the book.

There was a Dev comment that confirmed it on twitter or something before DAI came out.

[JumboWheat01]

Huh, never even saw that book.  Seriously.  Never.  ...We need more book stores.

 

But I guess I can just let Personal Canon reign and completely ignore that fact.  Will be made even easier if I decide to side with the Templars, since there'll be no mention of it.

[synnerman]

Templars went just as BFC as the mages, worse because they were gutting farmers along the way.  Throw in red lyrium and smacking around Chantry sisters (which I WANTED TO DO DAMMIT).

I side against them out of spite.