12 réponses à ce sujet

[QweenBeen]

At the risk of asking a really stupid question, what is the veil?? I thought I understood it as the barrier between this world and the fade, created as a divider between the two, but then I was playing DA2 and got this codex entry:

Codex text

I detest this notion that the Veil is some manner of invisible "curtain" that separates the world of the living from the world of the spirits (whether it be called the Fade or the Beyond is a matter of racial politics I refuse to indulge in at the moment). There is no "this side" and "that side" when it comes to the Veil. One cannot think of it as a physical thing or a barrier or even a "shimmering wall of holy light" (thank you very much for that image, Your Perfection).

Think of the Veil, instead, as opening one's eyes.

Before you opened them, you saw our world as you see it now: static, solid, unchanging. Now that they are open, you see our world as the spirits see it: chaotic, ever-changing, a realm where the imagined and the remembered have as much substance as that which is real-more, in fact. A spirit sees everything as defined by will and memory, and this is why they are so very lost when they cross the Veil. In our world, imagination has no substance. Objects exist independently of how we remember them or what emotions we associate with them. Mages alone possess the power to change the world with their minds, and perhaps this forms the nature of a demon's attraction to them-who can say?

Regardless, the act of passing through the Veil is much more about changing one's perceptions than a physical transition. The Veil is an idea, it is the act of transition itself, and it is only the fact that both living beings and spirits find the transition difficult that gives the Veil any credence as a physical barrier at all.

--From A Dissertation on the Fade as a Physical Manifestation, by Mareno, Senior Enchanter of the Minrathous Circle of Magi, 6:55 Steel.

So in summary, it's actually a state of being that spirits and mortals find it hard to transition through, so instead of being a physical barrier, it's a metaphysical one. Based on what we know of the ancient elves, they were able to channel the spirit world as easily as breathing. And from what solas has said, the spirit world was once as real as the grass or the trees.

I get that, but if it's just a mental transition, or a transition for mortals or spirits into a state of being that they don't fully grasp, and only passed through by mortals when dreaming, what is the breach??? It's a very physical hole in the sky. And how is it older in skyhold or thinner in places with lots of bloodshed? It's constantly described as a physical thing, so should I not give this codex entry any credence? Seems silly to include it if there's no value to it...

Again, I'm sure I'm missing something that other folks can help me to understand, so would love to hear thoughts on the matter.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well Codexs can contradict each other and often do.

They aren't infallible, their written in universe.

[QweenBeen]

Well Codexs can contradict each other and often do.

They aren't infallible, their written in universe.

I just seems that this codex entry was written to give us pause on the way the veil is perceived by the world. It would be an easy thing for the lore to just consider it a fabric that can be torn asunder, but I don't think it's meant to be that simple...or maybe I want to read into it more. The fact that mages tap right through it all the time to get to the fade means it's not a physical thing, right?

[Master Warder Z_]

Does it have to be one or the other? Physical or insubstantial?

I personally theorize the veil is both these things like water it shifts upon condition. It is physical in so far as a barrier against magic and the creatures of the fade, but yet not so utterly that these things do not exist in the waking world.

It's a construct that there are little confirmed facts about and far more conjecture and theory.

[QweenBeen]

Interesting theory; solid when it needs to be a form of protection or vapor when trying to access it with magic...
Maybe I just liked the philosophy of the codex entry so it bothered me. It's those two forms of reality, what's remembered and what's actually true...spirits corrupt into demons when they're trying to interpret the will of mortals. Mortals pass through it only when they dream because they're so dependant on physical reality that anything diaphanous would be terrifying.
But then okay, why can't dwarves get through?! Is it from the lyrium they're always surrounded by? Why would that have anything to do with it?

I totally get this is all conjecture, btw, but some people come up with really cool theories!

[Wolfen09]

we exist in the same world, just on different planes of existence... normal people cannot sense or see the spirits/demons yet they are all around the people of thedas... we cant perceive them, and they cant physically interact with us without a medium...  so there is technically no barrier, we just cant see them and they cant touch us....

[In Exile]

There's a suggestion from Solas that the Veil is artificial. Clearly the elves had a means of parting it seeing as how the foci created the breach.

[QweenBeen]

Yeah I totally agree that the veil is artificial, and to wolfen's point, where now they're on two separate planes, they used to be on the same one until it was created. I've read theories that the black city was once a place you could get to before there was a fade. But again with the dwarves. I think it was DAO Dagna that said the stone prevented them from dreaming until they just evolved that way. So the lyrium all around them acts as both a barrier against the fade and the means to easily tap into it, for mages anyway? Hmmm...

Well just another great mystery I guess. ..

[Eliastion]

If we consider Fade as realm of thoughts and concepts (that's pretty much the nature of spirits and demons) and dreams, it starts to make a bit more sense. That's why physically walking the Fade is such a big deal - normally visiting Fade means shifting your perception but in this case you don't just start to perceive spiritual rather than material world - you pretty much cease to exist, undergoing full transition to concept of yourself, imposing your physical definitivness and stability on the Fade.

On the other hand, Fade remains connected to physical world, as it to some extent reflects the minds and perceptions of living - and those are localized, though I expect Veil to reflect everything in various ways - most likely you could say that there is more than one Fade in a single point... geography of the Fade is kinda comolicated, I guess... Either way, the Veil is likewise tied to physical location, as its property - that's why it can be of varying quality in different places, up to and including a localized anomaly where everything goes to hell, kinda like in case of a breach in a hull - even if supposedly just a place where nothing seperates "inside" from "outside" it creates pretty violent effects for no other reason than difference between the too being too radical. If the Veil were to just gradually disappear everywhere, not just open in some tight spots, the effects would likely be much more bearable. And it would most likely make everyone simultaneously perceive both physical constraints and the realm of ideas, effectively making every sentient creature a powerful mage.

[dragonflight288]

At the risk of asking a really stupid question, what is the veil?? I thought I understood it as the barrier between this world and the fade, created as a divider between the two, but then I was playing DA2 and got this codex entry:

So in summary, it's actually a state of being that spirits and mortals find it hard to transition through, so instead of being a physical barrier, it's a metaphysical one. Based on what we know of the ancient elves, they were able to channel the spirit world as easily as breathing. And from what solas has said, the spirit world was once as real as the grass or the trees.

I get that, but if it's just a mental transition, or a transition for mortals or spirits into a state of being that they don't fully grasp, and only passed through by mortals when dreaming, what is the breach??? It's a very physical hole in the sky. And how is it older in skyhold or thinner in places with lots of bloodshed? It's constantly described as a physical thing, so should I not give this codex entry any credence? Seems silly to include it if there's no value to it...

Again, I'm sure I'm missing something that other folks can help me to understand, so would love to hear thoughts on the matter.

 

The veil is both a state of being and a barrier. It's the thing that keeps spirits and demons out of the mortal world, separates the Fade from the world of men. If there was no veil, spirits and demons could come and go, but reality would be a lot less static. Your environment, the things you have, could be willed into being or willed away. 

 

Pretty much where the veil is strong, demons and spirits have a harder time coming across compared to where it is weak. And it can be weakened by many things. A great deal of violence, like on a battlefield or a war, it can be intentionally weakened through magic, or it weakens naturally over time where magic is condensed and practiced in excess. Solas also brings up that places with a great deal of history also have a weakened veil as spirits converge on areas where great events happened, and a mage entering the Fade in such areas can see reflections of what happened as the spirits reenact events based on the emotions of those who were there.

 

Solas brings it up when he talks about how he slept at Ostagar and saw the battle in the Fade, and how what happened shifted based on the emotion. One moment he saw valiant soldiers fall while a power mad villain sneered and left his king to die, and in the next moment he saw a weary war leader choosing to save as many men as he can in an unwinnable battle, and since it was the Fade, they were each real because they were the real emotions of the people who were there. 

[EmissaryofLies]

No.

[dragonflight288]

@ OP. 

 

You can think of it this way. The Fade is a realm of dreams. All mortals go there (except dwarves) whenever they fall asleep and dream. Spirits and demons both see these dreams and try to reflect the Fade with what they see, but it's a pale imitation at best. 

 

But the Fade is transitory. Everything there can be willed into being by a need or a thought. Everything, every form each creature takes, every item produced, exists because it was willed that way. Nothing is static there. 

 

The Veil not only keeps the spirits and demons in there, it also allows the mortal world to remain static, so a rock is a rock and will always be a rock. If you want a candlestick, you have to work with physical materials rather than will one into being. 

 

The veil is a state of being that helps keep the mortal world static and the Fade/dream-world in a state of flux. But as the Fade reflects the world around it, as Solas says, you have to travel to new places in order to see new areas of the fade. He had to go to Ostagar to see the spirits reflect the battle. He goes to old ruins to see the ancient city as seen by the denizens of the Fade and learn lost secrets. 

[QweenBeen]

Thanks for all these great theories guys! I'd definitely like to see that world before the veil, the one solas describes...just read this again and remembered some of what he was trying to describe.

Solas: Spirits wish to join the living, and a demon is that wish gone wrong.

Quizzy: Is there a way to coexist? To live with them, if not in peace, at least without such active confrontation?

Solas: Not in the world we know today. The Veil creates a barrier that makes true understanding most unlikely.

I imagine the veil acts as a kind of filter too...some do get through, but the possible other reason all the confrontations are so violent is that the spirits are hungering, starving even, for the real world. It's why the fade is such a weak mimicry of the real world. But if the spirits are constantly in the real world, they don't have to fake it or corrupt mortal will. They would have their heart's content and would have no reason to be violent.

Seems the veil is more of a punishment against the spirits when they might have been actually pretty benevolent....