158 réponses à ce sujet

[ThreeF]

At the three above: It makes no sense. Unless the Fiona we meet is not Fiona, or the deal happened AFTER she met the Inquisition in VR, the time magic in redcliff would not have simply affect redcliff.

 

This is indeed the case.

 

1)Fiona meets IQ

2)Fiona returns to Redcliffe

3)Alexius puts Redcliffe in time bubble

4)In the time bubble Alexius travels back in time (maybe even several times) and meets Fiona right after the events of the Conclave.(<--this is something Fiona says herself)

 

Outside of the bubble the time is undisturbed and runs its course. In-the-bubble Fiona never met the Inquisitor, because Fiona who met IQ ceased to exist the moment Alexius created the bubble and traveled back in time. When the bubble is removed the two time "lines"/states synchronize. 

[Bullets McDeath]

Three F has got the right of it.

 

Not saying it's not confusing, but it does make sense. By time travel standards.

 

Hell, watch the movie Primer and get your head wrapped around the time travel in that movie. The logic of Redcliffe's time bubble is a cakewalk compared to that

[Ranadiel Marius]

I think it's mostly because people are used to picture alternative timelines as tree branches. It doesn't necessary needs to be that, especially considering that whatever happened only affected Redcliffe. Up until your IQ closed the weird rift, Redcliffe was in its own time bubble.

If Redcliffe was in a "time bubble" then a. It should have been impossible for the Inq to enter or he should have been retconned the moment he entered the time bubble so he didn't remember contradictory events from the proper timeline and b. The proper timeline should have reasserted itself upon the bubble bursting.

I hate time travel.

If you hate time travel then you should go with my non-time travel explation for events. No paradoxes in that theory!

[Bullets McDeath]

The thing about it, Ranadiel, is that that's how YOU say time travel should work. As it's impossible, and beyond impossible for us as people who perceive time in a linear fashion to really imagine, who's to say. Different works of fiction handle the "rules" in different ways. Paradoxes especially. There need not be anything like a "proper" timeline, nor do changes need to ripple backwards and change events for those who experienced them.

[Teddie Sage]

I think it's revealed in the Templars side that it was in fact a demon/spirit messing around. It's never revealed in the Mages side.

[Lebanese Dude]

This is indeed the case.

 

1)Fiona meets IQ

2)Fiona returns to Redcliffe

3)Alexius puts Redcliffe in time bubble

4)In the time bubble Alexius travels back in time (maybe even several times) and meets Fiona right after the events of the Conclave.(<--this is something Fiona says herself)

 

Outside of the bubble the time is undisturbed and runs its course. In-the-bubble Fiona never met the Inquisitor, because Fiona who met IQ ceased to exist the moment Alexius created the bubble and traveled back in time. When the bubble is removed the two time "lines"/states synchronize. 

 

This is a good theory. Well done.

[ThreeF]

If Redcliffe was in a "time bubble" then a. It should have been impossible for the Inq to enter or he should have been retconned the moment he entered the time bubble so he didn't remember contradictory events from the proper timeline and b. The proper timeline should have reasserted itself upon the bubble bursting.
If you hate time travel then you should go with my non-time travel explation for events. No paradoxes in that theory!

 

Remember the rift you closed prior entering? By closing the rift you destroyed the bubble. There is no proper time line to reassert itself (there is no such thing as correct time line), they just end up coexisting.

 

Time travel always will be accompanied be some sort of paradox.

 

 

The thing about it, Ranadiel, is that that's how YOU say time travel should work. As it's impossible, and beyond impossible for us as people who perceive time in a linear fashion to really imagine, who's to say. Different works of fiction handle the "rules" in different ways. Paradoxes especially. There need not be anything like a "proper" timeline, nor do changes need to ripple backwards and change events for those who experienced them.

Yep,  exactly so.

[draken-heart]

This is indeed the case.
 
1)Fiona meets IQ
2)Fiona returns to Redcliffe
3)Alexius puts Redcliffe in time bubble
4)In the time bubble Alexius travels back in time (maybe even several times) and meets Fiona right after the events of the Conclave.(<--this is something Fiona says herself)
 
Outside of the bubble the time is undisturbed and runs its course. In-the-bubble Fiona never met the Inquisitor, because Fiona who met IQ ceased to exist the moment Alexius created the bubble and traveled back in time. When the bubble is removed the two time "lines"/states synchronize.

The only real explanation I can find is that Fiona meets the inquisition in the second timeline as well, no time bubble or anything.

[MikeJW]

This is indeed the case.

 

1)Fiona meets IQ

2)Fiona returns to Redcliffe

3)Alexius puts Redcliffe in time bubble

4)In the time bubble Alexius travels back in time (maybe even several times) and meets Fiona right after the events of the Conclave.(<--this is something Fiona says herself)

 

Outside of the bubble the time is undisturbed and runs its course. In-the-bubble Fiona never met the Inquisitor, because Fiona who met IQ ceased to exist the moment Alexius created the bubble and traveled back in time. When the bubble is removed the two time "lines"/states synchronize. 

 

Ok, help me out here. Pre-time travel the Fiona we met is real. Alexius meets her after that but time travels back to before meeting us...I'm still lost. If the time lines sync up then we would forget meeting Fiona because in a synced up time line it never happened. There is a Fioan that was outside the time bubble, what happenes to her? Lets say we told VR Fiona hey lets travel together would at some point she just fade away? You make sense except we shoudnt remember Fiona either.

[BloodyTalon]

Ok, help me out here. Pre-time travel the Fiona we met is real. Alexius meets her after that but time travels back to before meeting us...I'm still lost. If the time lines sync up then we would forget meeting Fiona because in a synced up time line it never happened. There is a Fioan that was outside the time bubble, what happenes to her? Lets say we told VR Fiona hey lets travel together would at some point she just fade away? You make sense except we shoudnt remember Fiona either.

Your right there, because there sill would be a paradox even if one  grand traitor vanished. The IQ remembering along with others is the paradox.

[draken-heart]

Ok, help me out here. Pre-time travel the Fiona we met is real. Alexius meets her after that but time travels back to before meeting us...I'm still lost. If the time lines sync up then we would forget meeting Fiona because in a synced up time line it never happened. There is a Fioan that was outside the time bubble, what happenes to her? Lets say we told VR Fiona hey lets travel together would at some point she just fade away? You make sense except we shoudnt remember Fiona either.

The only explanation we have is, time bubble or no, Fiona leaves Redcliff and when the timeline merges/synchronizes, she still meets the inquisition, and thus plays dumb.

[Bullets McDeath]

Not exactly, the explanation is that once the bubble bursts and the time lines sync, this does not magically rubber-band the memories of the Inquisitor and companions. There seems to be a presumption that changes to a timeline are going to alter the memories of the Inquisitor, which does not need to be (nor does it seem to be) the case.

 

It's like if I met John Malkovich on Tuesday and he invited me to his Pokémon tournament on Thursday, and then on Wednesday, Steven Dorff travelled back in time to Monday and trapped John Malkovich in a time bubble and prevented him from leaving. Now, as far as John Malkovich knows, he's never met or invited me. But I still remember, because this change is not global, it only effects the people in the bubble.

 

So, on Thursday, I show up ready to pwn some n00bz and Malkovich is all like "whaaaat?" and Steven Dorff jumps out of nowhere and we have this totally awesome kung-fu showdown and I break every bone in his body with my Muay-Thai and that releases the time bubble.

 

Now the timelines are back in sync, but this John never experienced meeting me and so does not remember. However, I still remember meeting him, even though we now exist in this shared timeline. Essentially, he both did and did not invite me to the Pokémon tournament.

 

It's exactly like that.

 

 

Monday A:  Malkovich organizes tournament                                                       Monday B:  Dorff traps Malkovich in time bubble.

Tuesday A: Malkovich invites me to play                                                              Tuesday B: Malkovich waits helplessly in bubble.

Wednesday A: Dorff travels back to Monday, creating Monday B                       Wednesday B: More waiting

Thursday A: I burst the time bubble, syncing timelines                                        Thursday B:  Now the timelines are synced  

Friday Prime: Dance Party                 

[Sifr]

My solution was to just to go to the templar sidequest. More Enterprise, less Voyager.

 

Though I love Captain Janeway. 

 

Although Enterprise spent most of it's first three seasons with a Temporal Cold War subplot that went nowhere, inconsistent time travel from episode to episode (although all Trek suffers this), a master villain "Future Guy" was never explained and who was named through sarcasm, before finally ending with a bizarre plot involving time travelling space-Nazis...

 

At least in Voyager, you got to enjoy Janeway being like Alexius, in her blatant not giving two figs about the integrity of the timeline, to the point where she actually drove a seasoned time cop insane as a result of having to continually step in and fix her messes.

 

[ThreeF]

Pre-time travel the Fiona we met is real.

Yes.

 

Alexius meets her after that but time travels back to before meeting us.

 

Yes.

 

 If the time lines sync up then we would forget meeting Fiona because in a synced up time line it never happened.

 

There is no need to forget anything because what was happening in Redcliffe wasn't affecting anything and anybody else outside of Redcliffe. In the synced up time line it all happened: Fiona both meet and didn't meet IQ.

 

There is a Fioan that was outside the time bubble, what happenes to her?

 

The Fiona was never outside the bubble since the bubble was created after she returned to Redcliffe, first she returned then the bubble was created. Once the bubble was created and Alexius travel back in time, the initial state of the bubble was gone/displaced/lost in limbo. Time took different path, a different contained reality was created and continue to exist once the bubble is gone.

 

(I hope I'm not confusing you further)

[BloodyTalon]

Although Enterprise spent most of it's first three seasons with a Temporal Cold War subplot that went nowhere, inconsistent time travel from episode to episode (although all Trek suffers this), a master villain "Future Guy" was never explained and who was named through sarcasm, before finally ending with a bizarre plot involving time travelling space-Nazis...

 

At least in Voyager, you got to enjoy Janeway being like Alexius, in her blatant not giving two figs about the integrity of the timeline, to the point where she actually drove a seasoned time cop insane as a result of having to continually step in and fix her messes.

 

Which had worse paradoxes then this story does no matter how it is explained by fans for both

 

[MikeJW]

 

The Fiona was never outside the bubble since the bubble was created after she returned to Redcliffe, first she returned then the bubble was created. Once the bubble was created and Alexius travel back in time, the initial state of the bubble was gone/displaced/lost in limbo. Time took different path, a different contained reality was created and continue to exist once the bubble is gone.

 

(I hope I'm not confusing you further)

 

See, if Fiona was never outside the bubble then we would have no memory of her. I can kind of see what you mean but...lets say Fiona killed someone while she was in VR. Would that person still be dead?

 

Heres where I'm getting lost. Alexius creates the bubble and in this bubble Fiona doesn't go to VR. You say the initial state of the bubble is gone,ok, I'm still lost on how we remember Fiona. Either she went to VR or she didn't. Alexius created a reality where she doesn't need to go to VR then...ugh, if we remember Fiona then that means theres two realities but that would mean two Fionas. If time merged into a single path then we wouldn't remember her because she didn't go.

 

Theres a time bubble around Redcliff...Fiona never leaves...how is there a Fiona outside the time bubble to interact with...

 

I'm getting a head ache.

[Bullets McDeath]

There isn't a Fiona outside the bubble anymore, once the bubble is created. But there still used to be. What you're getting hung up on I think is the idea that because the timeline changed, the Inquisitor's memories would be altered as well, but they are not. He or she still experienced what "originally" happened, and then travels to the bubble and bursts it, mending the timeline. So, as Three F pointed out earlier... it both did and didn't happen.

 

So in the simplest breakdown

 

It happened.

 

Then the bubble was created and it didn't happen (but only for those inside the bubble, it still did for everyone else).

 

The bubble was destroyed and both realities (the one where it happened and the one where it didn't) became one, with people from the bubble remembering their version and people from outside it remembering theirs.

[nedweb]

I would argue that if it were simply bad writing, they would not have had Fiona be the one to come to VR, and if they did, they would not have had her seem confused by it when you talk to her at Redcliffe.  And at the moment you speak with her, she can't explain things because that would spoil the upcoming events.  So, I suppose having a line somewhere where Dorian says "Oh, that is why Fiona didn't remember us, because..." or the like would have solved it, but the lack of it doesn't really haunt my dreams.

[ThreeF]

lets say Fiona killed someone while she was in VR. Would that person still be dead?

Yes.

 

 

Heres where I'm getting lost. Alexius creates the bubble and in this bubble Fiona doesn't go to VR.

 

The other "version" of Fiona went to VR, this version returned to VR, then the reality in which this version of Fiona existed ceased to exist and was replaced by one with a different Fiona in it the one we meet in Redcliffe.

 

 

 

 You say the initial state of the bubble is gone,ok, I'm still lost on how we remember Fiona.

 

We remember both versions as one and the same.

 

 Either she went to VR or she didn't.

 

She did both, or rather different versions of her did both.

 

 Alexius created a reality where she doesn't need to go to VR then...ugh, if we remember Fiona then that means theres two realities but that would mean two Fionas.

 

There were never two Fionas (???) at the same time.  The first Fiona "died" once Alexius traveled back in time and second Fiona was "born" (i'm trying to use simple terms, hope this helps)

 

 

 if we remember Fiona then that means theres two realities but that would mean two Fionas. If time merged into a single path then we wouldn't remember her because she didn't go.

 

Why would we forget? The two realities coexist. From IQ perspective IQ met both Fionas but perceives them as one person, from Fiona perspective at the Redcliffe, she never met IQ (because she is slightly different Fiona, but she doesn't know it)

[ThreeF]

I would argue that if it were simply bad writing, they would not have had Fiona be the one to come to VR, and if they did, they would not have had her seem confused by it when you talk to her at Redcliffe.  And at the moment you speak with her, she can't explain things because that would spoil the upcoming events.  So, I suppose having a line somewhere where Dorian says "Oh, that is why Fiona didn't remember us, because..." or the like would have solved it, but the lack of it doesn't really haunt my dreams.

 

That would be exposition, people always complain about exposition.

[MikeJW]

There isn't a Fiona outside the bubble anymore, once the bubble is created. But there still used to be. What you're getting hung up on I think is the idea that because the timeline changed, the Inquisitor's memories would be altered as well, but they are not. He or she still experienced what "originally" happened, and then travels to the bubble and bursts it, mending the timeline. So, as Three F pointed out earlier... it both did and didn't happen.

 

So in the simplest breakdown

 

It happened.

 

Then the bubble was created and it didn't happen (but only for those inside the bubble, it still did for everyone else).

 

The bubble was destroyed and both realities (the one where it happened and the one where it didn't) became one, with people from the bubble remembering their version and people from outside it remembering theirs.

 

Ok I'm getting it. One thing that still bugs me though. If it still happens outside the bubble then what happens to that Fiona? With the time being changed like that then when Fiona is talking to us then there has to be a Fiona in Redcliff. I get that time only changed for the people in the bubble but you have someone from the bubble interacting with the outside world.

[draken-heart]

Listen, if you have to come up with a theory like the "time bubble" theory, it is bad writing.

[ThreeF]

Ok I'm getting it. One thing that still bugs me though. If it still happens outside the bubble then what happens to that Fiona? With the time being changed like that then when Fiona is talking to us then there has to be a Fiona in Redcliff. I get that time only changed for the people in the bubble but you have someone from the bubble interacting with the outside world.

That interaction happened before the bubble.

[Bullets McDeath]

My quote function is wonky, so,

 

@MikeJW: I can't say for sure how exactly that works. My speculation is that when you met her, the bubble had not yet been created. So there were not two Fionas, one in the bubble and one out, at any point. Once the bubble was created, the Fiona you met in Val Royaeux would cease to exist. I would imagine a sort of popping or sucking sound and then she vanished . Best not to think too hard on it, except that her disappearing does not retroactively erase her actions or memories of her for those who exist outside the bubble.

 

@draken-heart: To each their own. I don't think it's bad writing or any more ludicrous than most plots involving time travel (and better than several that come to mind) but I do think it was unnecessarily confusing and out of place in the setting, so, there's that. Not a shining moment of Bioware's trademark A+ storytelling. But I would disagree it's a case of "it doesn't make sense because it's dumb writing". It's confusing, but it does make sense. It just requires a lot of extrapolation that, in the best case scenario, would be self-evident in the story.

[draken-heart]

@draken-heart: To each their own. I don't think it's bad writing or any more ludicrous than most plots involving time travel (and better than several that come to mind) but I do think it was unnecessarily confusing and out of place in the setting, so, there's that. Not a shining moment of Bioware's trademark A+ storytelling. But I would disagree it's a case of "it doesn't make sense because it's dumb writing". It's confusing, but it does make sense. It just requires a lot of extrapolation that, in the best case scenario, would be self-evident in the story.

Which makes it bad writing. we have to make theories on this topic, which does not explain the problem at all

 

It is not properly integrated into the story, and outside of one or two mentions, it is incredibly pointless.