158 réponses à ce sujet

[MikeJW]

Ok I get it now.

 

 

I still hate time travel.

 

 

I also think time travel that doesn't affect the whole world is kinda...dumb.

 

 

I want to go back in time and advise BioWare no to time travel.

[Sifr]

Listen, if you have to come up with a theory like the "time bubble" theory, it is bad writing.

 

I agree, it's a contrived explanation since we have no evidence of multiple timeline interaction.

 

The time bubble theory doesn't hold much weight with me, because there's nothing we see that supports it. All we see is that the Rifts with temporal effects are occuring near Redcliffe, but no evidence that anything happening inside Redcliffe is happening in a manner that is cut off from the normal space-time. If it was, then the Dark Future Redcliffe timeline would still continue to exist there, despite us averting it by returning to the present, as well as the multiple temporal incursions that Future!Alexius caused in his attempts to alter the events at the Conclave.

 

The only problem is the question of Fiona, since if Alexius has already altered history so that he arrived two days after the Conclave's destruction and prevented her from going to Val Royeaux, why do we still encounter her there? We were already unconscious for several days during the prologue, before journeying to the Hinterlands and then to Val Royeaux, where we encountered her, yet aside from that, we have no sign that the timeline we're in has been altered in any way?

 

The simpler explanation is that a demon is impersonating her like the Lord Seeker, since we know that the Tevinters can summon and control spirits, so binding an envy demon to impersonate Fiona wouldn't be too much trouble? As for the reason of why he would go to so much trouble to lure us to Redcliffe, Alexius' goal was to erase us from the timeline, so that would be the best way to go about it?

[Bullets McDeath]

@MikeJW: High five! We made it. And, yeah. I hate time travel too. It just shouldn't be used unless it's the entire point of the story. Primer is the only time-travel story that stands up to thorough scrutiny and even then it's best done with multiple viewings over a single weekend, supplemented with reading explanations on the internet. It's a really great film though, if you're ever curious about seeing what time travel would be like, realistically.

 

@draken-heart: Well, to each their own, like I said. And I don't think we're "making up theories", per se. I mean, it's not like we're at Indoctrination Theory levels of pulling-it-out-of-our-ass here. I don't consider this a "theory" as I do a more detailed explanation of the time travel rules they used that were only sparsely explained in the game itself.

[Creator Limbs]

Not really. The time magic is supposed to be unstable and untested. So of course it would create weird things like time Fade Rifts, multiple timelines.

So what you're saying is "shitty writing hopefully disguised by demons and time magic."

[Bullets McDeath]

Arg, now I'm getting frustrated. Like Rust Cohle would say, time is a flat circle, and so is this thread now

 

The quality of writing is subjective, obviously, but it's not "oh bla bla bla, it doesn't have make sense, magic demon crumpets bacon Templar derka derka Jihad". It makes perfect sense, if you think about. I've already laid out the logic as plain as I can make it.

 

Now, saying it was heretofore unmentioned demonic impersonators acting without discernible motivations... THAT is pure theory.

[draken-heart]

@draken-heart: Well, to each their own, like I said. And I don't think we're "making up theories", per se. I mean, it's not like we're at Indoctrination Theory levels of pulling-it-out-of-our-ass here. I don't consider this a "theory" as I do a more detailed explanation of the time travel rules they used that were only sparsely explained in the game itself.

It is making up a theory. There is no evidence that there is a "time bubble" around redcliff. Rifts that mess with temporal situations (speeding things or slowing things) does not = time bubble around redcliff. and what rules? we only know that the breach allowed him to time travel.

time travel is just a stupid convenient plot device.

[Bullets McDeath]

Well, we agree there (it's a stupid, convenient plot device). Although, how convenient it was really... oy vey. Really it was just unnecessary in every way. God only knows what motivated them to write it. They could have done... I dunno... literally anything else instead.

 

So maybe it's a theory, if you like, but I still say it holds more water than "demons did it, for reasons".

[draken-heart]

Well, we agree there (it's a stupid, convenient plot device). Although, how convenient it was really... oy vey. Really it was just unnecessary in every way. God only knows what motivated them to write it. They could have done... I dunno... literally anything else instead.
 
So maybe it's a theory, if you like, but I still say it holds more water than "demons did it, for reasons".

And I believe that Fiona maybe playing dumb. She would have more reason to do that than "time bubble made her not remember." Also magic altering Fiona's mind is logical.

[Helmetto]

Except your theory doesn't account for casualty. It doesn't account for other uncontrolled factors, such as another person reacting to seeing the trapped person walking around and about, or objects being interacted while things are around at about, You can't have the two timelines merge, that's not how it works, because then reality is ****** itself backwards because of overlapping causing inconsistencies.

 

Personally, I don't think there was a time bubble. It was sort of like:

 

Alexius arrives at Redcliffe, uses time travel to claim the mages.

Fiona shows up, plays dumb, returns to Redcliffe, plays even more dumb.

 

It's still dumb to use time travel, or even introduce it as a possibility, though.

[MikeJW]

The thing with time travel is you can sit there and come up with a hundred ways it can't work. Even with the time bubble theory I can sit and nit pick things that disprove it but whats the point? Right now it's one of the best ways  to explain the inconsistencies. Since theres no hard and fast scientific rules, or even established in universe rules, any thing I could say to disprove the bubble theory could be countered with some other unfounded assertion about time travel. I'm just going with the bubble theory even though I'm not 100% on board because time travel is the ultimate deus ex machina in literature so it's pointless to put much thought into it. Which is why I always think of time travel plots to be lazy and lacking imagination.

[Helmetto]

The thing with time travel is you can sit there and come up with a hundred ways it can't work. Even with the time bubble theory I can sit and nit pick things that disprove it but whats the point? Right now it's one of the best ways  to explain the inconsistencies. Since theres no hard and fast scientific rules, or even established in universe rules, any thing I could say to disprove the bubble theory could be countered with some other unfounded assertion about time travel. I'm just going with the bubble theory even though I'm not 100% on board because time travel is the ultimate deus ex machina in literature so it's pointless to put much thought into it. Which is why I always think of time travel plots to be lazy and lacking imagination.

 

Time travel is the deus ex machina in literature, except when the literature itself is about time travel, in which suddenly consistency matters.=/

[Bullets McDeath]

@Helmetto: Well, it does address the causality of Fiona having done one thing and then suddenly having not done it. All other paradoxes are addressed too, in a broad sense, in that yes, the time lines DO merge at the point at which the bubble is burst, and people who were inside the bubble remember one version of events and the people outside remember a different version of events. So that's the "resolution" of those paradoxes. In the merged timeline, things both did and didn't happen, from different perspectives. It's like The Warp In The West, from The Elder Scrolls. To say it "doesn't work that way" can't really be definitive since I just described a way in which it can.

 

Of course, we can counter each other back and forth until the end of time (<-- see what I did there?) and get absolutely nowhere, because, as I think we all agree:

 

time travel is dumb

 

I still think, for me any anyone else who wants it, the Time Bubble Theory is a suitable explanation, given what we do know. It's just as fair to speculate maybe Fiona was playing dumb, both times, for some reason we'll never know, but that's less satisfying to me.

[MikaelNovasun]

Here is how you disprove the bubble theroy. At least one inquisition agent is able to get into Redcliffe and scout it even before you close the rift outside that is causing time dilation and would be part of said bubble. The agent meets you as soon as the gate opens and briefs you about the town and mages.

[Sifr]

 

Now, saying it was heretofore unmentioned demonic impersonators acting without discernible motivations... THAT is pure theory.

 

But it would fit Occam's Razor, that the simplest explanation is often the correct one.

 

Having a Alexius bind a demon to impersonate Fiona to lure the Inquisitor to Redcliffe under the pretence of an alliance, then erase them from history, is a far more plausible explanation than a complicated explanation about multiple timeline's interacting within a time bubble that we see no sign of ever having occurred within the game?

[Bullets McDeath]

@Mikael:

 

How does that disprove anything?

 

No one said the bubble was impenetrable, only that people on either side of it experience a different timeline. The scout would pass from the timeline where Fiona went to Val Royaeux (outside the bubble) to one where she didn't (inside the bubble) and then back out again, but it wouldn't mean anything to the scout because he wasn't in Orlais and thus nothing is contradicted for him.

[draken-heart]

@Helmetto: Well, it does address the causality of Fiona having done one thing and then suddenly having not done it. All other paradoxes are addressed too, in a broad sense, in that yes, the time lines DO merge at the point at which the bubble is burst, and people who were inside the bubble remember one version of events and the people outside remember a different version of events. So that's the "resolution" of those paradoxes. In the merged timeline, things both did and didn't happen, from different perspectives. It's like The Warp In The West, from The Elder Scrolls. To say it "doesn't work that way" can't really be definitive since I just described a way in which it can.
 
Of course, we can counter each other back and forth until the end of time (<-- see what I did there?) and get absolutely nowhere, because, as I think we all agree:
 
time travel is dumb
 
I still think, for me any anyone else who wants it, the Time Bubble Theory is a suitable explanation, given what we do know. It's just as fair to speculate maybe Fiona was playing dumb, both times, for some reason we'll never know, but that's less satisfying to me.

Well, she may not want to draw suspicion of the Venatori that she called the Inquisition for help, so decides to act like the meeting never happened to avoid the repercussions of that choice.

[Helmetto]

Of course, we can counter each other back and forth until the end of time (<-- see what I did there?) and get absolutely nowhere, because, as I think we all agree:

 

time travel is dumb

 

The time travel, as done in DAI, is pretty stupid yeah.

 

And yeah, I can see you just aren't going to agree with me. To each his own.

[draken-heart]

@Mikael:
 
How does that disprove anything?
 
No one said the bubble was impenetrable, only that people on either side of it experience a different timeline. The scout would pass from the timeline where Fiona went to Val Royaeux (outside the bubble) to one where she didn't (inside the bubble) and then back out again, but it wouldn't mean anything to the scout because he wasn't in Orlais and thus nothing is contradicted for him.

Yet the agent does seem to remember being set there to inform people that the inquisition was coming. If there was a bubble, why would that get mentioned? Wouldn't the agent just say things about the mages?

[Bullets McDeath]

@Sifr,

 

Sure, but I could just as easily say it was actually Flemeth who shapeshifted into Fiona in order to give the Inquisitor a reason to visit Redcliffe and thus get on the path to saving the world. That makes MORE sense, actually, because while literally almost anything is simpler than time travel (and thus fits Occam's Razor), there's no clear reason for Alexius to want the Inquisitor to come to him. And we do see signs of the time bubble existing (temporal disturbances on the edge of the village, people within experiencing [or CLAIMING to experience, if you prefer] a different timeline of events, no one outside the village being aware of the Tevinter presence within Redcliffe)... the Time Bubble Theory is nothing if not extrapolated from the evidence at hand. The "Maybe It Was A Demon Thingie Theory" is pulled from thin air.

[Bullets McDeath]

@draken-heart:

 

How did she get out of Redcliffe after Alexius took it over? You're saying she somehow got to Orlais to invite the Inquisitor and then came all the way back and he never noticed she was gone?

 

As far as the agent, I don't remember the conversation with him that vividly, but I still don't see how that's an inconsistency. He was sent it in, he saw what he saw, he came back out and reported it. Where's the paradox?

[ThreeF]

@Mikael:

 

How does that disprove anything?

 

No one said the bubble was impenetrable, only that people on either side of it experience a different timeline. The scout would pass from the timeline where Fiona went to Val Royaeux (outside the bubble) to one where she didn't (inside the bubble) and then back out again, but it wouldn't mean anything to the scout because he wasn't in Orlais and thus nothing is contradicted for him.

 

Actually not necessary. The guard outside of the bubble couldn't get in until you busted it. As for the bubble's barrier, it could very easily to work in a very binary way of "in" and "out", what is 50% in get sucked "in" what is not is "out". Alexius could very carefully define its size and shape to avoid really big objects. Or it could form some sort of illusion on the both sides of the "wall". The possibilities is the sky.  And of course IQ would not be the only one experiencing the paradox.

 

That said I really doubt that the writer thought that far into it.

[Bullets McDeath]

I'm definitely beginning to think most of the people in this thread have devoted more thinking to this issue than the writer ever did, that's for sure

[JumboWheat01]

I think at this point, we can just quote Bob & George and say "God, I hate time travel."  Doin' nothing but arguing in circles at the moment.

[Helmetto]

I feel like the more we think about it, the more contrived we have to make our theories in order to make sense of it. =/

[MikeJW]

 

 

That said I really doubt that the writer thought that far into it.

 

I think the entirety of their thinking can be summed up by the quizzy. "Magical time travel. Go with it."