439 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Being a graphic artist I prefer spend time making other equally fun things, just because I chose to put my creativity in areas other than gaming doesn't make my points any less informed or valid.

 

Mmmhmmm... and your prints also sell a million copies? I'm not out to randomly pick on you or In Exile (more like defend the DA developer peoples for at least making something that resonates), but the way you guys talk make it seem like you could make an effortless thing you could do in your spare time if you weren't so busy creating infinite masterpieces. The ultimate proof is in whether something is actually effective (i.e. translates to people playing), and all that.

[Yukki]

Mmmhmmm... and your prints also sell a million copies? I'm not out to randomly pick on you or In Exile (more like defend the DA developer peoples for at least making something that resonates), but the way you guys talk make it seem like you could make an effortless thing you could do in your spare time if you weren't so busy creating infinite masterpieces. The ultimate proof is in whether something is actually effective (i.e. translates to people playing), and all that.

I'm not out to prove anything, and given how many artists have died obscure and unknown, only to be "discovered" years after their death, your point is moot. Creativity doesn't rely on public approval or even acknowledgment. I know my art history, therefore it makes your statement laughable.

But case in point, it might not be million of prints (even the great masters like Monet never sold even close to that many in their life time btw), but in my younger years I published well over a hundred desktop wallpapers online, many of which have been downloaded hundreds of times, and are still accessible on theotaku.com under the user name KenshinSorrow. I also won art contests in college, and have recieved other recognition.

Can you say the same for yourself? How many of YOUR own art pieces have you yourself sold? Or do you even create art at all?

[In Exile]

Well if you guys know so much freaking much why don't you make a dang game yourselves and sell a million copies eh?

 

There is a big difference between saying, on the one hand, here is what I think are the essential elements of the horror genre and, on the other hand, actually being able to execute on putting them together. 

[Yukki]

There is a big difference between saying, on the one hand, here is what I think are the essential elements of the horror genre and, on the other hand, actually being able to execute on putting them together.

I realize your comment wasn't addressed to me, but it still rang true to me.

I am well aware of this little tidbit myself, especially given that I spent years in my early 20s attempting to establish myself as a published author, even placing in writing contests, before deciding to go back to my first love, art. I may no longer be actively pursuing writing, but I studied up a lot during the time that I pursed writing and it's made me a better graphic artist as well. Not many graphic artists have the writing skills or understanding that I picked up as a result. So the experience still benifits me. What I learned was hard won and not forgotten.

[Seraphim24]

I'm not out to prove anything, and given how many artists have died obscure and unknown, only to be "discovered" years after their death, your point is moot. Creativity doesn't rely on public approval or even acknowledgment. I know my art history, therefore it makes your statement laughable.

But case in point, it might not be million of prints (even the great masters like Monet never sold even close to that many in their life time btw), but in my younger years I published well over a hundred desktop wallpapers online, many of which have been downloaded hundreds of times, and are still accessible on theotaku.com under the user name KenshinSorrow. I also won art contests in college, and have recieved other recognition.

Can you say the same for yourself? How many of YOUR own art pieces have you yourself sold? Or do you even create art at all?

 

Whoa there, I'm just a consumer/observer right here. I'm merely commenting on what I see as a potentially vast discrepancy between the intensity and certainty of the conversation and the existence of actual games making me go "wow!"... I'm not telling people what's what, or saying your pictures or art or whatever are bad, maybe they're really cool. 

 

I kind of just wish all these people on the internet with their supreme certainty would actually do something with that knowledge so I can enjoy more things. Millions of posts and blog points and dissections of the nature of the horror genre and whatever else.. but there's still only one Dragon Age right now.

[Yukki]

Whoa there, I'm just a consumer/observer right here. I'm merely commenting on what I see as a potentially vast discrepancy between the intensity and certainty of the conversation and the existence of actual games reflecting those ideas... I'm not telling people what's what, or saying your pictures are bad, maybe they're really cool.

I kind of just wish all these people on the internet with their supreme certainty would actually do something with that knowledge so I can enjoy more things. Millions of posts and blog points and whatever else.. but there's still only one Dragon Age right now.

The thing I learned early in art is that all art is open to criticism. I cannot finish a professional piece without it going through a rigorous critique by my peers. And there is no such thing as "artistic license" if you are trying to market your work. My own uncle trained as a fine artist and later migrated to graphic arts. I still remember when he was creating a fine art piece of a wolf, and how annoyed he was because his customer demanded that he change the color of that wolf's eyes. If he cried "artistic creativity" that would have meant a lost sale and his children would go hungry, literally.

Artistic freedom is a fantasy, usually cried by those who actually don't engage in the creative process themselves. Dragon Age is a creative endeavor, yes, but it is being made for customers, therefore by trying to market that creative endeavor, BioWare, like any in the creative field, opens itself to critiques and disapproval. If you want to be paid in the creative field, it's just a fact of existing in that field.

They are marketting a product, plain and simple, and like any product, no matter how it was developed, it will receive both good and bad reviews and criticism.

That said, what exactly did you intend when you made those comments about selling millions, if not to be decisive in your comments? What about that statement wasn't you trying to judge and measure my worth?

Fact: I have been an artist since the moment I took pencil in hand and started creating as a toddler. Selling or not selling millions will not make me any more or less an artist. Being an artist is about being creative, being recognized for that creativity is definitely a nice bonus, but generally not the end goal of an artist. Art is about self-expression.

[Seraphim24]

The thing I learned early in art is that all art is open to criticism. I cannot finish a professional piece without it going through a rigorous critique by my peers. And there is no such thing as "artistic license" if you are trying to market your work. My own uncle trained as a fine artist and later migrated to graphic arts. I still remember when he was creating a fine art piece of a wolf, and how annoyed he was because his customer demanded that he change the color of that wolf's eyes. If he cried "artistic creativity" that would have meant a lost sale and his children would go hungry, literally.

Artistic freedom is a fantasy, usually cried by those who actually don't engage in the creative process themselves. Dragon Age is a creative endeavor, yes, but it is being made for customers, therefore by trying to market that creative endeavor, BioWare, like any in the creative field, opens itself to critiques and disapproval. If you want to be paid in the creative field, it's just a fact of existing in that field.

That said, what exactly did you intend when you made those comments about selling millions, if not to be decisive in your comments? What about that statement wasn't you trying to judge and measure my worth?

Fact: I have been an artist since the moment I took pencil in hand and started creating as a toddler. Selling or not selling millions will not make me any less an artist. Being an artist is about being creative, being recognized for that creativity is definitely a nice bonus, but generally not the end goal of an artist. Art is about self-expression.

 

Ehm this is getting pretty de-raily to me, I don't really have anything else to add. I didn't play silly and strange things like Baldur's Gate and Doom and Super Mario because they uh.. were.. anything other than just plain fun! Fun to me, the player, the person, whatever. I don't know how else you would judge something like entertainment.

 

It's just mind-numbing, but to be honest that's not just you, or Dragon Age, it seems like the whole world of "video games" where there's an increase in criticism and at such volume but seemingly few games to play as a consequence, in fact, there seem to be much fewer. I just noticed it with you two and I'd rather not de-rail anymore, I'd guess I'm just kind of interested in 'dark and gritty" but there are so few actual games like that these days.

[Yukki]

Ehm this is getting pretty de-raily to me, I don't really have anything else to add. I didn't play silly and strange things like Baldur's Gate and Doom and Super Mario because they uh.. were.. anything other than just plain fun! Fun to me, the player, the person, whatever. I don't know how else you would judge something like entertainment.
 
It's just mind-numbing, but to be honest that's not just you, or Dragon Age, it seems like the whole world of "video games" where there's an increase in criticism and at such volume but seemingly few games to play as a consequence, in fact, there seem to be much fewer. I just noticed it with you two and I'd rather not de-rail anymore, I'd guess I'm just kind of interested in 'dark and gritty" but there are so few actual games like that these days.

I will agree with you, I also play for fun, but being creative myself, I have a tendency to pick apart the less fun parts. I also like the dark and gritty, and love DAO in large part because of that, as well as the deep companion interaction in DAO. So I think we can agrre in this we share the same interests and some common ground?

[Seraphim24]

I will agree with you, I also play for fun, but being creative myself, I have a tendency to pick apart the less fun parts. I also like the dark and gritty, and love DAO in large part because of that, as well as the deep companion interaction in DAO. So I think we can agrre in this we share the same interests and some common ground?

 

Well, sure. 

 

Although I must add I have yet to see a very convincing definition of what "dark and gritty" really is, but certainly the things that have that reputation (Game of Thrones, DA:O, etc) often seem to have more of my interest as opposed to things that do not (Pixar Movies, etc).

[Yukki]

Well, sure.

Although I must add I have yet to see a very convincing definition of what "dark and gritty" really is, but certainly the things that have that reputation (Game of Thrones, DA:O, etc) often seem to have more of my interest as opposed to things that do not (Pixar Movies, etc).

That is because "dark and gritty" is subjective. It changes from person to person, based upon their own needs and life experiences. It because of that, that you most likely will never find an answer to your question except from within yourself. Instead of asking what "dark and gritty" is to everyone else, you need to find out what "dark and gritty" means to you. That is the only answer that is likely to resonate for you.

[hong]

Although I must add I have yet to see a very convincing definition of what "dark and gritty" really is

brown

[Yukki]

brown

Lol, but yeah, this is a question where the answer has no fixed value and so you have to find the answer in yourself. So if it's brown, then brown it is. =p

[hong]

Lol, but yeah, this is a question where the answer has no fixed value and so you have to find the answer in yourself. So if it's brown, then brown it is. =p

No, no. The brown is objectively true.

[Sifr]

I think that one way we could have had a more gritty feel is how certain quests played out, because half the time, you never really get the feeling that you can fail the quest and have things end badly for you?

 

Instead of choosing the Wardens to be exiled or not at Adamant, how about like the Templars in Therinfal, during the Siege of Adamant we had to keep an eye on our allied forces (both Inquisition and defecting Wardens) to ensure that we ended the mission with the best outcome? Perhaps if we didn't, our army would have taken more casualities and all the Wardens wiped each other out?

 

Or say, that quest in the Fallow Mire where we have to go through the entire map to rescue the missing soldiers? What if the mission was time sensitive like some of those in ME2 or ME3, where if you don't do them as soon as you get them, you show up and "Everyone's Dead, Dave?!"

 

I was half expecting us to open that prison and find them all butchered like those scouts we found in the Storm Coast? It could have been even more of a player punch if we'd found their managled bodies arranged into the symbol of the Inquisition, as a final "Screw you!" from the Hand of Korth to us on the off-chance that we beat him?

 

And then we find a bloody note, written by that same hopeful prisoner who was so vindicated when we rescued them in the game itself. "I have no fear, I know that the Inquisitor will come..."

[Bladenite1481]

hmm, I think dark and gritty has to do with consequence more than what is being presented. What is the consequence of my choice or of the NPC's within the game doing this over that. Is it always grey? Such that I know I get what I want, but something else is affected within the line of dominoes to make it happen. Or is there a possibility that it could truly become dark. Lost and mired in apathy or persuasion. 

 

An example to me..in DAO, you can free the Duke in many ways, most having some side effect that is not desirable. However one truly different option is that you can have his own mother kill him and you listen to her tell him its going to be all right, that she is always going to be there for him as she plunges a blade into his heart. Now DAI apologists are going to say.."It doesn't matter, the end result is the same." and honestly I could make that argument about almost anything. I could say magic, swordplay..psh its just animation, its all just damage. So its not just what gets you there, it's the effect that it has on you and the consequence of your action is that effect. 

 

Grey decisions like the ones in this game, leave you going "Meh" because you can see them coming. You can follow the line of reasoning and say "Yeah okay, I guess I can see that." Where as the darker decisions make you question if what you did was right at all, if you are truly or a hero and even force you to rationalize or dehumanize the actions in front of you so that you can live with yourself. 

[Helmetto]

I think that one way we could have had a more gritty feel is how certain quests played out, because half the time, you never really get the feeling that you can fail the quest and have things end badly for you?

 

Instead of choosing the Wardens to be exiled or not at Adamant, how about like the Templars in Therinfal, during the Siege of Adamant we had to keep an eye on our allied forces (both Inquisition and defecting Wardens) to ensure that we ended the mission with the best outcome? Perhaps if we didn't, our army would have taken more casualities and all the Wardens wiped each other out?

 

Or say, that quest in the Fallow Mire where we have to go through the entire map to rescue the missing soldiers? What if the mission was time sensitive like some of those in ME2 or ME3, where if you don't do them as soon as you get them, you show up and "Everyone's Dead, Dave?!"

 

I was half expecting us to open that prison and find them all butchered like those scouts we found in the Storm Coast? It could have been even more of a player punch if we'd found their managled bodies arranged into the symbol of the Inquisition, as a final "Screw you!" from the Hand of Korth to us on the off-chance that we beat him?

 

And then we find a bloody note, written by that same hopeful prisoner who was so vindicated when we rescued them in the game itself. "I have no fear, I know that the Inquisitor will come..."

 

Or how about that Lady from the Emprise who was like, "Yeah, I know what I did was bad, so what I decided to do was, keep chill and wait until someone strong enough came around to save us"?

[Ieldra]

I'm not disagreeing, they, for instance, missed an opportunity with the haunted mansion. When I first read the diary at the cliff I was expecting to see at least one ghost, instead i spend a lot of time reading and just had a mini boos fight. You only would need an ambient voice to make that place more involving. It is my impression that they run out of time on many things.

Indeed so. Chateau d'Onterre was a place that worked, and I really liked that quest, but I did expect the atmosphere to be much more intense than it was. I also know they can do it, so I was a little disappointed with the result. 

 

I'm just playing through the Western Approach sidequests, and I'm reminded of something I wrote in my diary thread: the sidequests are nothing special, but the locations are very beautiful. This is a pattern throughout the game. The places look extremely impressive, and the outdoors locations actually have their own atmosphere, yet what happens there often doesn't come alive. I've noticed patch 3 added a note to the starting camp here, in order to connect you to the Coracavus quest better. It isn't quite enough, but better than before. 

 

I'd also like to say that all my criticism, here and elsewhere, comes from the basic position that I love this game. Overall, it's on par with DAO, and the things that don't  work as they could are balanced by others that are improved.

[papercut_ninja]

Here´s what I am going to say about this comparison between the stories and environments in DA, and hold on, cause it is going to be good, and I am not going to be saying it twice...

 

The main difference, which makes me think of DA:O as more grey, twisted and provoking is not because of boobs, brothels or blood...it is simply because the evil of DA:O comes from within humanity (or dwarvenity, elvenity or whatever you call it) itself.

 

The blight is not the enemy, the blight is the symptom. Loghain is a war hero, a self-made man who loses his moral compass due to his fanatical desire to maintain Fereldan independence. The dwarven pretenders are consumed with their hunger for power, and their paragon, who should be the guiding voice of her people, is too obsessed in her quest for engineering mastery that she lost touch with her humanity. The elven keeper is consumed with revenge, unable to let go of past grievances even hundreds of years later and the mother of Connor was so protective of her son that she made him into a demon. None of these characters are evil or morally misguided because of some ancient god, blight or other influence, they are evil because they are human and as such prone to failure...it is all very biblical...

 

In DA:I, everything comes down to Corypheus...the templars, the mages, the wardens, the duchess, the venatori, Calpernia...it is all because of Corypheus. Sure, they all have their weaknesses and personal desires to make them suspectible to Corypheus influence, but in the end, he is the one who pushes them over the line. In DA:I we know who the big bad guy is, and we know that most of the other bad guys are bad guys because of the big bad guy. Loghain, Uldred, Branka, Zathrian never required some powerful evil influence to make them into monsters, as humans (or elves or dwarves) they already had these monsters inside them. When the real enemy of the story is ourselves, it becomes much more troubling and compelling to us than any monster or demon, no matter how scary, bloody and diabolical you make it.

 

To me it wouldn't have mattered if DA:O had been presented with brightly colored stick figures moving around in a cookieland, it would still have been a darker story that left a stronger impression because of the inner mechanisms of the story itself.

 

Spoiler

Of course, the ending of DA:I puts a twist on everything that raises entirely new questions, which if followed up in the sequel might turn the entire story into the most dark and twisted one yet...in which case we are talking ingenious writing from BW...

[Draining Dragon]

DA2 was try-hard.

DAI was did-not-try-hard-enough.

[cronshaw]

Mmmhmmm... and your prints also sell a million copies? I'm not out to randomly pick on you or In Exile (more like defend the DA developer peoples for at least making something that resonates), but the way you guys talk make it seem like you could make an effortless thing you could do in your spare time if you weren't so busy creating infinite masterpieces. The ultimate proof is in whether something is actually effective (i.e. translates to people playing), and all that.

This is a very common fallacy

the idea that the only people who can criticize something are those who can do better

I don't need to know how to bake a cake to know it tastes like ****

[Chuvvy]

Generally when bioware attempts that it's pretty cringey, so I wouldn't say it's a huge loss.

[frogkisser]

Generally when bioware attempts that it's pretty cringey, so I wouldn't say it's a huge loss.

When Bioware attempts the dark and the gritty you mean?Why did you find it cringey?

[Lebanese Dude]

This is a very common fallacy
the idea that the only people who can criticize something are those who can do better
I don't need to know how to bake a cake to know it tastes like ****

Truth.

Still, there's a difference between thinking something can be done better and thinking that one could do a better job given the same constraints and resources, especially when one is unqualified to do so.

[gombie]

I think the word "dark" gets thrown around too much. What people want is grit and realism. The opposite would be theres too much bunnies and rainbows.

 

For me DA:O deeproads chapter was by far the most memorable. Then the Quest in DA2 with your mother was really emotional too, that made me sit and think "wow".

 

DA:I really lacks any emotional stirring moments. (the oh thats awesome parts, have been done in other games many many many times already so i wasn't really moved by them) I never really felt like i earned any of this inquistor business, It felt like i was just cleaning up the wilderness. Unlike DA:O where you made big impacts on cities/states.

[Mirth]

Here´s what I am going to say about this comparison between the stories and environments in DA, and hold on, cause it is going to be good, and I am not going to be saying it twice...
 
The main difference, which makes me think of DA:O as more grey, twisted and provoking is not because of boobs, brothels or blood...it is simply because the evil of DA:O comes from within humanity (or dwarvenity, elvenity or whatever you call it) itself.
 
The blight is not the enemy, the blight is the symptom. Loghain is a war hero, a self-made man who loses his moral compass due to his fanatical desire to maintain Fereldan independence. The dwarven pretenders are consumed with their hunger for power, and their paragon, who should be the guiding voice of her people, is too obsessed in her quest for engineering mastery that she lost touch with her humanity. The elven keeper is consumed with revenge, unable to let go of past grievances even hundreds of years later and the mother of Connor was so protective of her son that she made him into a demon. None of these characters are evil or morally misguided because of some ancient god, blight or other influence, they are evil because they are human and as such prone to failure...it is all very biblical...
 
In DA:I, everything comes down to Corypheus...the templars, the mages, the wardens, the duchess, the venatori, Calpernia...it is all because of Corypheus. Sure, they all have their weaknesses and personal desires to make them suspectible to Corypheus influence, but in the end, he is the one who pushes them over the line. In DA:I we know who the big bad guy is, and we know that most of the other bad guys are bad guys because of the big bad guy. Loghain, Uldred, Branka, Zathrian never required some powerful evil influence to make them into monsters, as humans (or elves or dwarves) they already had these monsters inside them. When the real enemy of the story is ourselves, it becomes much more troubling and compelling to us than any monster or demon, no matter how scary, bloody and diabolical you make it.
 
To me it wouldn't have mattered if DA:O had been presented with brightly colored stick figures moving around in a cookieland, it would still have been a darker story that left a stronger impression because of the inner mechanisms of the story itself.
 

Spoiler

Of course, the ending of DA:I puts a twist on everything that raises entirely new questions, which if followed up in the sequel might turn the entire story into the most dark and twisted one yet...in which case we are talking ingenious writing from BW...

This is a great explanation, so I'd like to add: combat in dai is more exciting, in the sense that it's faster, fluid, the animations are better, but it doesn't have the same "dark & gritty" visceral feel that combat in dao had.
Every baddie you kill in dai dies in the exact same nuclear atomization.
Same with DA2. Except is was more like death in the game "doom". Giblets... always giblets.
I never knew a sword or mace could do that....

Dao featured dozens of ways your foe could ultimately die. It was "more" realistic, and subsequently darker... and had more grit.
Add those missing story elements mentioned above, and DAO was just a more emotionally charged experience.