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[Arisugawa]

Of course they are Speaking of music, that's a point I had made earlier. A good soundtrack contributes enormously to a scene....and for the life of me I can't really think of ANY Inquisition songs aside the tavern ones, which is part of what makes them so memorable for me. 

 

But most of the tavern songs are the soundtrack, just set to lyrics. Samson, for example is heard triumphantly throughout the Hinterlands.

 

The difference is, Origins has an ethereal quality to it. The campground music, the music during the Cailan and Duncan's death....it's all wistful and otherworldly.

[frogkisser]

But most of the tavern songs are the soundtrack, just set to lyrics. Samson, for example is heard triumphantly throughout the Hinterlands.

 

The difference is, Origins has an ethereal quality to it. The campground music, the music during the Cailan and Duncan's death....it's all wistful and otherworldly.

Wait wait wait, where is he heard? That IS the soundtrack? ... I've read that the no-banter bug could also affect the soundtrack, and now I'm getting a little worried. 

[In Exile]

We have known about red lyrium since DA:II... The lives of Grey Wardens have already been sacrificed, it just takes a few years to kick in. Blood magic has been a thing since DA:O--it was more revealing in Golems of Amgarrak, and focal in DA:II. As for dark fantasy, I'm talking about aesthetics, more so a literary aesthetic. One that the writers at new Bioware can't seem to pull off. How do I judge this, well, the aforementioned issues happen in the story but how they are presented leaves people wondering why DA is not dark enough. Would you find many people saying the same about ME2, the Witcher, or infamous fantasy novels like Cook's Black Comapany? I don't think so.

They are farming entire towns to make red lyrium. You see people in slave pens to be mutated. How is this not insanely dark? We've got caged people being monstrously infected and mutated. That's an industrialised form of what the darkspawn did to create brood mothers, except the process involves less rape.

[Arisugawa]

Wait wait wait, where is he heard? That IS the soundtrack? ... I've read that the no-banter bug could also affect the soundtrack, and now I'm getting a little worried. 

 

Not the character, the song Samson.

 

This is the tavern version

 

But if you listen to the ambient music you hear while exploring parts of the Hinterlands, what you're hearing is the Samson song, just arranged orchestrally and without lyrics.

[Andres Hendrix]

We didn't know how Red Lyrium was made back in DA2 - Meredith's death could very easily been caused by any number of things of a magical nature tied to her sword.

 

Wardens sacrificing the lives of their own is not something we've readily seen, Avernus's research post the fall of Soldier's Peak aside, and that it was sanctioned by the Warden Commander or Orlais whom we witness cut the throat of her long-time friend...we haven't seen that.

 

To answer your question, though...why do people say DAI is not dark enough?

 

In my opinion, because the protagonist and her/his inner circle are not killed or directly harmed by the events of the story. Most fans seem incapable of recognizing just how dark things have become unless it directly affects them. Why is Mass Effect 2 dark? Because everyone can die except Joker and EDI.

 

But killing the protagonist or their inner circle, or even just wounding them, is a storytelling crutch. It is the classic girlfriend in the fridge type of trope, where the only way to motivate or engage someone is by taking something away from them. Or, in the case of Mass Effect 2, with the threat that something could be taken away.

*sigh* Dark fantasy attributes realism to the characters. So, for example, characters can die just like regular people in the real world as opposed to Tolkien high fantasy that  kills a Horatious. Meaning, all the 'good' characters (or Horatious) must die well for a cause or in a trumped up way (e.g. Horatious 'defending the Pons Sublicius). Bioware does not have trouble when it comes to killing their dandies, but the way that they present this type of thing breaks what could be a dark fantasy trope, by implementing a high fantasy way of doing it. Mordin in ME3 was a "good character", he dies saving the Krogan.  King Cailin and Duncan "died well" defending Ferelden by fighting the Darkspawn. Compare that to how Ned Stark died, or how Rob Stark died?

Even popular characters who are bit more ethically ambiguous, but are much liked by the readership can die from a menial thing in dark fantasy. Kal Drogo died from an infected wound. Could you see Morrigan dying in such a way? Could you see Varric or Alistair getting killed by friendly fire? In real life King Richard the Third (or good King Richard) died fighting a bloody civil war, after he took a crossbow bolt to his gut. Could you see Cassandra being wounded in a sketchy close quarters battle, and suffering for hours before succumbing? In dark fantasy a character, who is liked, is just as likely to die from dysentery or by accident,  they succumb to death in a way that is more attributable to real people. Bioware cannot seem to do this, hence why I said quirk--you can watch videos of the writers talking about why they killed Mordin (etc) in the "epic way" that they did. As for Dragon Age  itself, it is high fantasy with a body horror back drop. It's not true dark fantasy. Lord of the Rings has a type of body horror as well, the Orcs and Uruk Hai. Does that make LOTR dark fantasy?

[frogkisser]

 

Not the character, the song Samson.

 

This is the tavern version

 

But if you listen to the ambient music you hear while exploring parts of the Hinterlands, what you're hearing is the Samson song, just arranged orchestrally and without lyrics.

Yes, I've heard that before, took me a moment to realize. I've NEVER, however, heard any ambient music while exploring. Terrific. Thanks for confirming this for me

 

 

They are farming entire towns to make red lyrium. You see people in slave pens to be mutated. How is this not insanely dark? We've got caged people being monstrously infected and mutated. That's an industrialised form of what the darkspawn did to create brood mothers, except the process involves less rape.

 

Yeah but you're coming to the scene where a disaster has already happened, and you see the aftermath. I know it's cheap to say that we have to see more than just people in slave pens to actually care more about them than having a rogue in your party to open the cages and complete the quest.  But this IS a game, a visual medium, and (again) reading about what's happening is just not as memorable as *playing* through it. 

[Andres Hendrix]

They are farming entire towns to make red lyrium. You see people in slave pens to be mutated. How is this not insanely dark? We've got caged people being monstrously infected and mutated. That's an industrialised form of what the darkspawn did to create brood mothers, except the process involves less rape.

Again I'm arguing from literacy aesthetics, that is not dark fantasy, that is high fantasy if Tolkien had the gal back during the 1950s, to write the Orcs as being even more depraved.

[Nykara]

I think in Origins and with DA:2 there is a lot more Black and White specific area's. When it comes to the actual choices there is a lot more 'take the evil choice or take the paragon choice'. In Inquisition it is a lot more grey, which might leave the feeling of it not being as 'dark'. There are a lot of choices in Inquisition. I don't know how many times I put the controller down, walked away for a bit to think about what choice I would make, because the choices are not that clear. There is no 'good' option amongst the choices, simply a choice of will I take this side or that side - and both have their advantages and disadvantages but neither is right or wrong they are simply choices that have to be made. Still in all, each choice comes with someone being wiped out, left behind or some other decision like that. The result is pretty dark, the choice itself isn't due to the lack of right or wrong.

[Arisugawa]

*sigh* Dark fantasy attributes realism to the characters. So, for example, characters can die just like regular people in the real world as opposed to Tolkien high fantasy that  kills a Horatious. Meaning, all the 'good' characters (or Horatious) must die well for a cause or in a trumped up way (e.g. Horatious 'defending the Pons Sublicius). Bioware does not have trouble when it comes to killing their dandies, but the way that they present this type of thing breaks what could be a dark fantasy trope, by implementing a high fantasy way of doing it. Mordin in ME3 was a "good character", he dies saving the Krogan.  King Cailin and Duncan "died well" defending Ferelden by fighting the Darkspawn. Compare that to how Ned Stark died, or how Rob Stark died?

Even popular characters who are bit more ethically ambiguous, but are much liked by the readership can die from a menial thing in dark fantasy. Kal Drogo died from an infected wound. Could you see Morrigan dying in such a way? Could you see Varric or Alistair getting killed by friendly fire? In real life King Richard the Third (or good King Richard) died fighting a bloody civil war, after he took a crossbow bolt to his gut. Could you see Cassandra being wounded in a sketchy close quarters battle, and suffering for hours before succumbing? In dark fantasy a character, who is liked, is just as likely to die from dysentery or by accident,  they succumb to death in a way that is more attributable to real people. Bioware cannot seem to do this, hence why I said quirk--you can watch videos of the writers talking about why they killed Mordin (etc) in the "epic way" that they did. As for Dragon Age  itself, it is high fantasy with a body horror back drop. It's not true dark fantasy. Lord of the Rings has a type of body horror as well, the Orcs and Uruk Hai. Does that make LOTR dark fantasy?

 

I'm going to admit that I don't like the fantasy genre in general, so I could quite honestly not care if Dragon Age is considered fantasy, high fantasy, or dark fantasy. I don't care how it relates to Tolkien or Game of Thrones or any other preexisting setting. Dragon Age is a rare example of fantasy that I actually like for reasons that have nothing to do with how dark it may or may not be. For that reason, I'm probably not the person you should be having this debate with.

 

So...I'll address some of your concerns as best as I am able.

 

1) Can I see characters in Dragon Age dying in meaningless, horrible ways?

 

Can *I* see it? Yes, absolutely I can. But I think what you're asking me is can I see the writers of Dragon Age allowing it to happen.

 

No, I can't, but that has less to do with trying to keep the setting dark as it is a difference in the medium. Game of Thrones and its associated sequels are novels, where as Dragon Age is a game series. The terrible specter of player agency creeps its head in to gaming all the time. When you are reading a novel, you're a passive participant. While you may get attached to characters, you're still ultimately along for the author's ride and you have no agency to influence anything. As soon as you introduce agency to the audience, they will demand greater and greater control over the narrative until we have the mess that we have now, with constant arguments on the forums about how much they should be able to determine exactly what happens and how nothing in the game is relevant unless they have that control.

 

During the heyday of Origins, there was a significant outcry over the fact that Alistair would insist on taking the final blow against the Archdemon for a female Warden. A good number of players insisted they should have had the agency to take the blow themselves and keep Alistair alive. So, if that lack of agency caused an uproar, can I foresee Morrigan behind dragged behind the Templar barracks and beheaded in a cutscene without the player getting the option to leave her to her fate? No, I can't.

 

And the truth is, for such a death to be as terrible and horrible as say, Ned Stark's was, you would have to complete take player agency out of the equation. And I can't see a major character experiencing something like that without the player having some means to determine the narrative. 

 

Since sword/sorcery type games are not my preferred genre, I can't tell if other games kill their characters with the same lack of agency that novels do. But I have to ask if this a requirement for the setting to be considered dark. There are plenty of examples within the setting that these characters have realism attributed to them. They are deeply flawed, deeply passionate, none of them perfect paragons or perfect devils. In the examples you're citing, not only do the characters have to die but they have to die horribly or at least suffer.

 

Definitions of dark fantasy seem to be vary depending on which source I look up. Certain definitions fit Dragon Age as it currently written well enough. So I suppose the next question is, what is the definition of Dark Fantasy that I'm supposed to be judging this franchise by?

[Seraphim24]

They are farming entire towns to make red lyrium. You see people in slave pens to be mutated. How is this not insanely dark? We've got caged people being monstrously infected and mutated. That's an industrialised form of what the darkspawn did to create brood mothers, except the process involves less rape.

 

No it's not, it's gratuitous and disgusting.

[Andres Hendrix]

I'm going to admit that I don't like the fantasy genre in general, so I could quite honestly not care if Dragon Age is considered fantasy, high fantasy, or dark fantasy. I don't care how it relates to Tolkien or Game of Thrones or any other preexisting setting. Dragon Age is a rare example of fantasy that I actually like for reasons that have nothing to do with how dark it may or may not be. For that reason, I'm probably not the person you should be having this debate with.

 

So...I'll address some of your concerns as best as I am able.

 

1) Can I see characters in Dragon Age dying in meaningless, horrible ways?

 

Can *I* see it? Yes, absolutely I can. But I think what you're asking me is can I see the writers of Dragon Age allowing it to happen.

 

No, I can't, but that has less to do with trying to keep the setting dark as it is a difference in the medium. Game of Thrones and its associated sequels are novels, where as Dragon Age is a game serious. The terrible specter of player agency creeps its head in to gaming all the time. When you are reading a novel, you're a passive participant. While you may get attached to characters, you're still ultimately along for the author's ride and you have no agency to influence anything. As soon as you introduce agency to the audience, they will demand greater and greater control over the narrative until we have the mess that we have now, with constant arguments on the forums about how much they should be able to determine exactly what happens and how nothing in the game is relevant unless they have that control.

 

During the heyday of Origins, there was a significant outcry over the fact that Alistair would insist on taking the final blow against the Archdemon for a female Warden. A good number of players insisted they should have had the agency to take the blow themselves and keep Alistair alive. So, if that lack of agency caused an uproar, can I foresee Morrigan behind dragged behind the Templar barracks and beheaded in a cutscene without the player getting the option to leave her to her fate? No, I can't.

 

And the truth is, for such a death to be as terrible and horrible as say, Ned Stark's was, you would have to complete take player agency out of the equation. And I can't see a major character experiencing something like that without the player having some means to determine the narrative. 

 

Since sword/sorcery type games are not my preferred genre, I can't tell if other games kill their characters with the same lack of agency that novels do. But I have to ask if this a requirement for the setting to be considered dark. There are plenty of examples within the setting that these characters have realism attributed to them. They are deeply flawed, deeply passionate, none of them perfect paragons or perfect devils. In the examples you're citing, not only do the characters have to die but they have to die horribly or at least suffer.

 

Definitions of dark fantasy seem to be vary depending on which source I look up. Certain definitions fit Dragon Age as it currently written well enough. So I suppose the next question is, what is the definition of Dark Fantasy that I'm supposed to be judging this franchise by?

I'm analyzing Dragon age as a literature theorist would (I'm specifically looking at the writing). You not caring about the genre is a red herring--a separate issue. The question at hand is whether or not DA fits the definition of dark fantasy. You want to say the cop out that it's all subjective, I hold this line: "So I suppose the next question is, what is the definition of Dark Fantasy that I'm supposed to be judging this franchise by?" to be highly suspect (lerching into realativism).  I gave you a good example of what sets Dragon Age apart from dark fantasy, you just don't seem to care about such analysis , which makes talking with you pointless.

[Arisugawa]

I'm analyzing Dragon age as a literature theorist would (I'm specifically looking at the writing). You not caring about the genre is a red herring--a separate issue. The question at hand is whether or not DA fits the definition of dark fantasy. You want to say the cop out that it's all subjective, I hold this line: "So I suppose the next question is, what is the definition of Dark Fantasy that I'm supposed to be judging this franchise by?" to be highly suspect (lerching into realativism).  I gave you a good example of what sets Dragon Age apart from dark fantasy, you just don't seem to care about such analysis , which makes talking with you pointless.

 

I was trying to acknowledge my ignorance on something you are presenting yourself as an expert on.

 

There's no red herring. 

 

I don't know what you are considering dark fantasy. I literally looked up definitions as posted my prior response. What I found was definitions ranging from fantasy that incorporates horror elements, to simply life being threatened by things outside of their realm of understanding. And every site I visited said the definition of dark fantasy is hazy and even writers within the genre can't fully agree on what it encapsulates. You seem to think I'm going towards subjectivity when you appear to have a very objective definition of what the genre is. I can't speak to your points if I don't know how you're approaching them, and if my admitted ignorance on this isn't enough for you to provide clarity, then I agree, we're at an impasse.

 

If you don't want to continue the discussion, I'm fine with that. But I was merely trying to understand what you're comparing this franchise to. 

 

EDIT: if the example you say you provided is the one about the death or suffering of primary characters, we're still at an impasse.

[Aravasia]

This thread is too long for me to go over every post, but, for the most part, I agree with the OP, in that I would have preferred a much darker game. Though, I don't really know if it is so much that this game has less dark elements than the last (red lyrium mining comes to mind, as something fairly disturbing) but more-so, that you, as the player character never feel truly threatened after Act 1. From the trailers, I had gotten the feeling that the entire world would be on the brink of destruction, and that you/the Inquisition were Thedas's last hope. And this does come across in the beginning of the game. And then...the breach is just closed so early. I think that was the mistake. Corypheus's threat slowly diminished over the game, instead of building up, to the point where the final climax is just so underwhelming. To me, the attack on haven felt like the climax, and then the rest of the story is just the falling action. 

 

I believe that the story would have worked better if the breach had not been sealed until the end of the game, along with having it grow larger as the game progressed, bringing an actual threat and sense of urgency to the story. This would have cleared up the possible loophole with opening up the second breach at the end anyway (didn't they need a Divine sacrifice to open up a breach? I doubt Corypheus just chose her out of convenience, if the sacrifice could have been anyone.) 

[In Exile]

Again I'm arguing from literacy aesthetics, that is not dark fantasy, that is high fantasy if Tolkien had the gal back during the 1950s, to write the Orcs as being even more depraved.

I didn't know what you meant when you used "literary aesthetics" and I'm still not sure that I do but reading your subsequent posts I have a much better idea of your position. I agree with you that Bioware had not and will not write a plot that's "dark" by that standard.

[xJLxKing]

The tone in Inquisition is that of a Fantasy a lot like how Lord Of the Rings is. A high majority of character have a death that is glorious or meaningful. Even when this isn't the case, when the game attempts to be gritty or "dark", the way it handles the situation is more like a childrens book. It doesn't want to acknowledge to dive deep into the reason why it could be dark. Yes, there are slaves, death, and famine, dieases that is portrayed, but never in a way Origins did it

 

Origins introduced the blight in a pretty horrific way. The king dying with no actual glory; duncan barely doing anything remotely glorius. We see beheading of soldiers by darkspawn; our very own captain of the Keep gets killed screaming. We are given a decision whether or not to burn an entire city to prevent the taint from possibly spreading. The way it is confronted, it much more straight forward. We know what they do with the Broodmothers.

 

Even then, dark and gritty in these series isn't the same as Game of Thrones/A Song of Fire and Ice

[tamallama]

DA:I in more instances then this breaks the golden writer rule of "Show don't Tell." So sure, we read tons of notes (which make up the majority of side quests) but we never SEE any of these going on. It really takes away from the game, in my opinion, because you can't get a personal feeling of how high the stakes are in the war going on, how badly it's effecting the people. 

[Andres Hendrix]

I didn't know what you meant when you used "literary aesthetics" and I'm still not sure that I do but reading your subsequent posts I have a much better idea of your position. I agree with you that Bioware had not and will not write a plot that's "dark" by that standard.

Literary aesthetics, think Harold Bloom and Walter Pater etc.

[papercut_ninja]

DA:I in more instances then this breaks the golden writer rule of "Show don't Tell." So sure, we read tons of notes (which make up the majority of side quests) but we never SEE any of these going on. It really takes away from the game, in my opinion, because you can't get a personal feeling of how high the stakes are in the war going on, how badly it's effecting the people. 

 

Most of the notes and messages actually abide to this rule, because they are not written as metaknowledge where the player suddenly knows more than the character would know, but written from the perspective of the person who wrote or delivered the message, and there are many examples where the information is actually incomplete, manipulated or in some other way not entirely accurate, hence it is showing, not telling...

[Madrict]

Bring back Desire Demons please, female and male form. They are sorely missed and added a lot of atmosphere.

[wicked cool]

Every hero in dao is darker than my x carta dwarf and can be prior to being a warden

[Luqer]

Bring back Desire Demons please, female and male form. They are sorely missed and added a lot of atmosphere.

Also, bring back smarter Pride Demons. Pride Demons in Inquisition are a joke since they've become more about brawns than brains. We already have the Giants who fit the dumb, hulking brute category well. Then again, Nightmare and Envy already filled out the manipulative demon role... unfortunately, the game strictly makes it the player's goal to defy their manipulations unlike in previous games where you could accept a demon's offer, either bluntly or with altered terms and conditions, and get out of it with some benefits to yourself at the cost of someone else's life.

 

Heck, I was sorely disappointed that there were no talking Giants who aren't hostile towards people who get near them. I would have loved something similar to Red Dead Redemption: Undead Nightmare's Bigfoot mission where you learn to your horror that the Bigfoots were harmless and that a family of Bigfoots were killed off, with only one Bigfoot left alive crying in despair at having his family slaughtered... by you. Why? Because someone told you that Bigfoots eat babies and you believed that guy without proof. Turns out, Bigfoots are vegetarians.

 

Even the dark and gritty Witcher 2 had friendly trolls, big fat giants, who could attack you if provoked but are capable of reason and choosing the peaceful route with the trolls leads to a better outcome.

[Eyes_Only]

I will admit that DAO and DA2 were dark and gritty and that DAI seems to lack some of this.

 

However I was exploring in the Exalted Marches when I came across two skeletons. One lay face down with a spear in her back, her arms clutched to her chest as if holding something. I examined her body which showed a small child dead under her. The body contained one lootable item. a blood covered teddy bear.

[Eyes_Only]

Seems no edit button exists. meant to say Exalted Plains and not Marches.

[Luqer]

I will admit that DAO and DA2 were dark and gritty and that DAI seems to lack some of this.

 

However I was exploring in the Exalted Marches when I came across two skeletons. One lay face down with a spear in her back, her arms clutched to her chest as if holding something. I examined her body which showed a small child dead under her. The body contained one lootable item. a blood covered teddy bear.

Probably easy to miss since most players would frequently tap the pulse button to look for nearby loot their afraid they might miss thus they pay less attention to their surroundings. The pulse search method sort of breaks immersion with its distinct "ringing" sound effect even in dark, moody areas. Most players who loot the teddy bear probably don't bother to look at its description because to most, its just another item that belongs in the "valuables" section of the inventory. Heck, the fact that we could loot the bloody teddy bear and sell it off for minor gold without the game or your companions guilt tripping you for disrespecting the dead pretty much kills off any sense of sadness behind it.

 

A short and simple cutscene depicting the Inquisitor looking at the skeleton of the mother and child and then picking up the teddy bear followed by a decision to keep it into your inventory or leaving the teddy bear would've been nice.