439 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashagar]

You have a point but you can also go overboard with the dark and gloomy causing it to lose its impact. Honestly to me, the encounter with envy was the closest I came to jumping in a dragon age game because I wasn't expecting it and I found both it and the nightmare to be more disturbing than anything that got thrown at me other than the first encounter with the children in Awaking.

[frogkisser]

Envy was interesting, that's true, as was the Nightmare. That said, the small nightmare spiders he sent after you were more annoying due to quantity than scary. And even so, you get to the Nightmare and don't find the giant fear monster but some small flying arcane horror thing. 

 

Damn, I'd forgotten the Children. I'd forgotten the Mother. Bless my heart, I'm not much for horror games and that scene made me consider dropping the game then and there. 

 

[Joseph Warrick]

I'm not fond of jumpscares. They're cheap.

[Ashagar]

Only if they are done poorly like anything else execution is key.

[Hiemoth]

As I think has been pointed out already, this is very much a discussion on what makes a game dark and varies much from individual to the next. This isn't to say that it cannot be discussed or argued, but rather why someone else just refuses to accept the truth. Personally, I felt DAI wasn't as dark as it predecessors. but also find somewhat odd the argument that Bioware has gone mainstream and diluted their dark stories since for me DA2 and ME3, their two previous games, are also by far the darkest games they've done. So I kind of think that they should probably be allowed to make one or two games that aren't as dark before people start declaring all hope having been lost, especially since that level of darkness does not really fit as well in the DAI narrative.

 

However, as I was reading this thread, I found myself asking why did I consider DAI lighter than DAO, which I don't either consider necessarily that dark of a game, especially both use similar approaches to dark themes. Political conflicts and wars are more spoken than shown, desecrated places are shown and have a more ancient and arcane feeling to them than human, and so forth, and I realized that for me it was a combination of two things. First is that while DAI has those dark scenes, there's so much air between them that the impact never really carried for me constantly. It was more like 'Oh there's a dark scene, well time to go and investigate the ore minerals along the Storm Coast.' The second, and more important was the presentation of the scenes, especially with side quests, which ties to DAI larger lack of cinematics.

 

To give an example, in the first act of DA2 there is a quest where a magister asks you to go and apprehend an escaped criminal. You go to where he is holed up and find out that he is actually the magister's son and a serial killer who targets young elven girls, which also the only reason he has not yet been put to death. Hawke and group push through the dungeon to find his latest victim who he released because she showed sympathy to him and asks the party to spare him. When you finally find him, you realize he thinks that he is possessed by a demon in order to avoid taking true responsibility of his own dark deeds at which point you have a choice to act. While this type of a quest would not be impossible in DAI and there are even some that are comparable, because it never really has the cutscenes and interactions to sell these characters and their actions, it would for me have similar impact than when I got some herbs for the healer. The game itself doesn't treat those scenes as special or how it affects those characters, let alone you to choose anything that would force the character to react to the situation, and thus they just pretty much shrugging.

 

Hopefully my attempt to explain made any sense.

[ironhorse384]

IDK maybe the game isn't edgy or dark enough because we live in a hyper sensitive, politically correct society. If they keep the story "clean" enough then maybe they avoid the backlash from activists. One has to look no further than GTA V being taken off the shelves by certain retailers in Australia. Bioware would probably rather avoid being called on the carpet for writing something that offended someone or some group. It's really sad to me that we seem to be trending down this path of preemptive sensorship where creativity will only be acceptable if it doesn't push any boundaries.

[NedPepper]

Hello

 

Dark events in a rpg game in which you are so immersed and invested in the story and the characters, can be really shocking and upsetting (for some people) when a character is killed off mid or end game. For me I can accept maybe one death of a loved family member or companion but not someones whole family wiped out in the course of a game, that changes the theme to one of horror instead of fantasy adventure.

 

Now for me personally I have lost both my parents and grandparents and many other relatives; so exploring the themes of family deaths within a game setting is something I shy clear of. I think many people feel this way, especially those suffering from or recovering from depression and /or deaths of loved ones.

 

Most rpg games try not to cross those lines without a lot of thought and good reason. Dragon Age 2 for me was too dark, I felt really upset watching Hawkes mother die, and then after that terrible experience saw tragedy after tragedy unfolding as the game progressed. I can play through the game now without being overly affected but my first few playthroughs were difficult, trying to not get my emotions tangled up with the story.

 

For me Inquisition has just enough threat to make it compelling that I complete the storyline but there are a lot of feel good moments, and I need them from my games. I have seen enough dark and gritty events in my life,

 

Howver I know there are many of people who love these themes so I go with the flow.

 

I feel Bioware did well giving us a lighter, less tragic theme this time, especially after DA2,

I understand what you're saying.  I've had to deal with a lot of family tragedy as well.  I was actually playing DA 2 as a kind of comfort food recently as a way to deal with health issues with my mother and had to stop playing in Act 2.  (I also did a Buffy the Vampire binge during this time and had to definitely stop watching in Season 5)

BUT, I also know that I would never want Bioware to sanitize or remove content out of not wanting me to feel something because I'm going through a rough patch.  That's a dangerous precedent.  Part of art is showing the hardships of life.  Part of an RPG is roleplaying that.  And that's a unique thing that RPGs can do that not a lot of other media can give you.  It's part of what makes them so special. 

It's also largely absent in DA:I.  And I don't quite understand why.

[StarcloudSWG]

Yeah, I've noticed that DA:I is very light on the 'horror' elements that Dragon Age setting is known for. Particularly body horror; though the Red Templars are very much body horror when you think about it, it doesn't have the same personal impact that Darkspawn and the Blight had during the first game. I never really got the feeling that this was going to happen to the Inquisitor if they failed.

[Yukki]

After reading a good many responses, the ones that mention the middle ground choices, it occurred to me. With each new DA addition, the series becomes more and more polarized. The choices become either or, black or white. Choose one side or the other, and that's hurt the series imo.

Part of what made DAO so great was the grey, and no, I don't mean the grey wardens. In DAO you almost always had the option and a way to save everyone. You didn't have to sacrifice connor or his mother, there was a way to save both, you could save both the Templars AND the mages, ypu didn't have to kill the mages to save the tower. Yes, some choices were a bit more polarized, like with who would be King, but even that could lead to shades of grey depending upon your choices with the Anvil. I think it was because of the middling, grey options, that DAO feels more real and grittier to a lot of us, because the inclusion of grey choices is more true to life, where not everything is good or evil, black or white. You need grey to balance out the two polar opposites, and as the series progresses, it seems to be losing that grey center that balanced the whole I feel.

Life isn't always either or, I don't think it's too much to want that same realism in my video games too. DAO had that, DA2 took a lot of that grey away by forcing you to pick either the mages or Templars, and DAI took even more of it away.

Even your darkest choices in DAO could be tinged with hints of grey, due in part to what earlier choices you may have made. This is what I think gave DAO that gritty feel, even when you thought you were doing good, it could just as easily commit evil against another. That's what put your choices as Warden into the grey area. DA2 and DAI seem instead to be imposing a sterilized version of the choices we were given in DAO. I think this is why DAI feels so much more "bland" as others have described.

As for those who refer to the darker tales told in the codex, there is a writing technique called, "Show, don't tell." What this means is you reveal the story in action, a codex is telling, an action scene is showing. Telling us in a codex that something happened is just poor storytelling, and lacks the emotional impact that for we would have felt if they had shown us through character interaction what happened.

Example: in DAO you have the scene with the blind Templar and the Orphanage that a demon has taken over and destroyed. Now imagine if they had reduced that quest to only a codex entry. Not the same emotional impact or investment on the part of the player at all, right? It doesn't feel real in a codex to us, because we have not truly experienced the event ourselves, not even as a bystander.

Anyhow, I think the loss of the middle ground, the grey/neutral choices is really beginning to hurt the series, as it was those grey areas that originally kept the series centered.

[Ieldra]

@Yukki:

I don't agree. I think DAI is better in giving us plausible decision setups than DA2. Just think of the many variations of the Winter Palace plot, and who becomes Divine. The problem lies somewhere else: outcome symmetry. I.e. the phenomenon that every decision is an n-way fork where every outcome has equal narrative weight. DAO wasn't afraid to break that symmetry if that's what fit the story, most notably in the ending setups, who becomes king and Alistair sacrificing himself for a romanced Warden, Morrigans ritual etc.. That setup felt natural because it wasn't completely symmetrical. Not every decision can be made like that, but if all decision setups are symmetrical, the whole thing feels artificial. On the other hand, if the outcomes are asymmetrical one side will inevitably end up "lesser" in some way, which makes the decision unbalanced, and if *that* becomes a pattern - see ME's blatant Paragon bias - it's just as bad. Or worse, in fact. I don't think there is a perfect solution to this, but less symmetry here and there would make the world feel less artificial.

 

Anyway, I don't think that DAI's decision setups have much to do with the impression that the world is sanitized. It is more of a presentation problem. The world is not brought home to the player with as much impact as in DAO, or in DA2. DAO, I think, had a balance that worked, while DA2 went all-out on some elements which made the world feel like an evil parody at times. DAI is too tame.

 

I should mention that I think main plot elements only count in this insofar they connect to the everyday workings of the world. Corypheus' atrocities do not count because we not only can, but inevitably will excise them from the world completely. DA2 was better in this since its main plot was built on the everyday workings of the world (not denying that its presentation became implausibly extreme in the end which damaged its credibility).

[Seraphim24]

True, but hard to top HP Lovecraft's work in general when it comes to things being grim/dark or simply batshit insane. Sort of a unfair comparison. lol

 

I'd actually question that notion, once again, is creating this ominous foreboding sense of dread really the essence of grim and dark material? I mean, to be quite honest, the thing beyond the mountains of madness could very well have been a Wal-Mart or something, it's akin to stagecraft and possibility, but it's not necessarily grim per se.

 

Heck people don't frequently die in Lovecraft do they? I mean, every once and awhile, you might get a character or a journal from someone reporting on some kind of travesty, but it's mostly completely in the realm of possibility, not actuality.

 

I think grim and dark is like.. Whoa! That wasn't supposed to happen! Oh my god! That's horrible! It's kind of pushing against the river of expectations that seems to flow from all entertainment media.

 

Lovecraft and so on seems more like, what might happen what might happen. It's not about what you fear but the possibility, as to what people actually fear. Well, I believe people fear romantic rejection (as an example) is exceedingly powerful in creating dread, even though it doesn't look like it on the surface.

 

It could be something as simple as just having a companion actually die in DA:I, like you like.. uh.. Cassandra... but on one critical mission she dies no matter what you do, that would of seriously escalated the game I'd wager.

[Gileadan]

I think DA:I feels less dark and gritty not because the story and world are sanitized, but because a combination of missed opportunities and questionable gameplay decisions combine to fail to put at least some focus on the horror that is present in the setting of DA:I.

 

For example: there's this cave or mine in the Western Approach that has a body on a table, lyrium spikes growing out of it. Nearby there's a document explaining they use people to grow red lyrium. You maybe get one line of party banter about it. Heck, you may even miss the body because of a bad gameplay decision.

 

This bad decision is the "ping your surroundings to highlight interactable objects" function. You enter a somewhat dark room like that cave, you hit the ping button, you check out the highlighted stuff. The lyrium corpse was not interactable, therefore, not interesting.

 

Mass Effect, on the other hand, made you LOOK at things to see if they would highlight for interaction. You would have looked at that corpse then! And remember Mordin's personal quest on Tuchanka in ME2, where you could actually talk to him about the bodies found in the krogan hospital and get some insight on what had happened and why.  In DA:I, the lyrium corpse is just a background prop. No interaction, nothing. It's like the level designers (really, the maps seem to be one of the best things in the game!) put in a great opportunity for some story background development, and got summarily ignored by whoever designs/implements party interaction.

[frogkisser]

I think DA:I feels less dark and gritty not because the story and world are sanitized, but because a combination of missed opportunities and questionable gameplay decisions combine to fail to put at least some focus on the horror that is present in the setting of DA:I.

 

For example: there's this cave or mine in the Western Approach that has a body on a table, lyrium spikes growing out of it. Nearby there's a document explaining they use people to grow red lyrium. You maybe get one line of party banter about it. Heck, you may even miss the body because of a bad gameplay decision.

 

This bad decision is the "ping your surroundings to highlight interactable objects" function. You enter a somewhat dark room like that cave, you hit the ping button, you check out the highlighted stuff. The lyrium corpse was not interactable, therefore, not interesting.

 

Mass Effect, on the other hand, made you LOOK at things to see if they would highlight for interaction. You would have looked at that corpse then! And remember Mordin's personal quest on Tuchanka in ME2, where you could actually talk to him about the bodies found in the krogan hospital and get some insight on what had happened and why.  In DA:I, the lyrium corpse is just a background prop. No interaction, nothing. It's like the level designers (really, the maps seem to be one of the best things in the game!) put in a great opportunity for some story background development, and got summarily ignored by whoever designs/implements party interaction.

 

You know, reading this has gotten me to consider different things. I can't decide whether this change in direction between the games is due to a lessened gameplay focus on the creepy elements, as you describe here (it's more of a ping *interaction* and press loot all + codex entry rather than a cutscene or convo that brings it home) or it's a problem with the general atmosphere. Fallow Mires, Crestwood, etc, all were dark and dank and creepy enough, and it was so worth doing the Crestwood quests for sunshine. I'm really starting to believe it's not a problem of the color palette or the music or aesthetic choices, but gameplay for sure.

 

I remember in DAO where you run into that statue of the Tevinter seer; she had some voiced lines but often there were chances to interact with objects like books etc that were in a conversation menu. This really, really forced me to read and consider everything. This forced you to interact with everything - and more often than not you wanted to, and you could be given these tasty morsels of info instead of 'huh, body with lyrium growing out of it, was that random generation or purposely put on the table?'

 

The problem of nitty-gritty-darkness isn't in the atmosphere, or the sunshine of the Hinterlands. With a world so pretty and clean, something dark and heavy could be MUCH darker due to the contrast, and that's where I think the game falls short. The Hinterlands still has farmers in the fields tending to crops and looking for lost druffalo - so why isn't it a bit more shocking to find a burned body ten paces away?  The most interesting thing that I find in a cave shouldn't be deep mushrooms. What are those good for, anyway? 

 

The environment is just reduced to something that's large and looks pretty, with all relevant details either in a loot chest or piece of paper. 

[Ending]

Although dark themes are missing, I believe Inquisition was more cleaning up after people, and not really experiencing them firsthand. Somebody hit the nail on the head earlier, you always seem to appear after the 'violent and gritty' things. 

 

It was also appealing to a wider audience, which doesn't take Sherlock to understand so that sadly may have influenced it, but there's always the possibility of DLC pleasing your dark urges. 

[cronshaw]

I think this argument is one of semantics
The game is "dark" in that there are numerous instances of serious, mature and sobering content
The game does not have as many "creepy" horror movieesque moments as the first two games

[Vilegrim]

True, but hard to top HP Lovecraft's work in general when it comes to things being grim/dark or simply batshit insane. Sort of a unfair comparison. lol

 

 

Eclipse Phase..your welcome.

[Draining Dragon]

I think a huge problem is that the dark moments fall flat because the game doesn't do a very good job of getting you emotionally invested. Dragon Age Origins did a MUCH better job in that department.

[Steelcan]

I think a huge problem is that the dark moments fall flat because the game doesn't do a very good job of getting you emotionally invested. Dragon Age Origins did a MUCH better job in that department.

Its also a matter of presentation, the Deep Roads worked so well because the entire atmosphere of the level was building up towards the Broodmother reveal, in DA:I you find charred bodies and such but its still sunny and there's cute little foxes running all over the place

[fhs33721]

I agree that the actual story (main and sidequests alike) is not the problem. It is actually extremely dark at times and striaght up nightmare fuel in many instances.

 

People corupted into violent montrosities with crystaline spikes growing from their very flesh while driven insane by a constant, whispering song. To top it of there is the Templar at the end of the Imshael quest that was given the choice to be healed of the red lyrium but refused because the demons alternative terrified him even more.

Also the story of the young girl that was tortured by her family because of their supersitious belief that it would somehow make her loose her magic. But instead all they did was driving her into the arms of a desire demon with horrible consequences.

The Hinterlands have quite a lot of codex entries about the war and how horrible it is.

The fallow Mire has people locking potentially sick people into their house and letting them starve.

The priests of Dirthamen cut their high priest into pieces which were still somehow alive until his spirit turned into a creature of pure despair.

 

The presentation is why it just doesn't feel as dark as the previeous installments. The game hides most of this in codex entires, ambient Dialogue and optional dialogue. Futhermore even if it does play a role in the main storyline it is often glossed over instaed the game focuses on your Inquisitor and Inquisition being heroic and badass and stuff. Yay victory, let's not think to much about the downright terrifiing stuff that went down here.

Personally I don't mind it like that, because I like reading very much and I still get that "dark" feeling from all the relevant codices but I understand why other player who aren't into reading don't like this way of storytelling.

[Ieldra]

I agree that the actual story (main and sidequests alike) is not the problem. It is actually extremely dark at times and striaght up nightmare fuel in many instances.

 

People corupted into violent montrosities with crystaline spikes growing from their very flesh while driven insane by a constant, whispering song. To top it of there is the Templar at the end of the Imshael quest that was given the choice to be healed of the red lyrium but refused because the demons alternative terrified him even more.

Also the story of the young girl that was tortured by her family because of their supersitious belief that it would somehow make her loose her magic. But instead all they did was driving her into the arms of a desire demon with horrible consequences.

The Hinterlands have quite a lot of codex entries about the war and how horrible it is.

The fallow Mire has people locking potentially sick people into their house and letting them starve.

The priests of Dirthamen cut their high priest into pieces which were still somehow alive until his spirit turned into a creature of pure despair.

 

The presentation is why it just doesn't feel as dark as the previeous installments. The game hides most of this in codex entires, ambient Dialogue and optional dialogue. Futhermore even if it does play a role in the main storyline it is often glossed over instaed the game focuses on your Inquisitor and Inquisition being heroic and badass and stuff. Yay victory, let's not think to much about the downright terrifiing stuff that went down here.

Personally I don't mind it like that, because I like reading very much and I still get that "dark" feeling from all the relevant codices but I understand why other player who aren't into reading don't like this way of storytelling.

I'd agree with you if this was a book. But being relegated to written in-world documents sends the message "this is less important than what's on-screen".

 

You know, I think this impression of being less dark is connected with the matter of side-quests that feel less alive than in DA2 and DAO. Much of the "everyday darkness" we're not seeing in the world was brought home to us through sidequests. Prime example: that orphanage quest in Denerim's Alienage. There, too, the events were mostly in the past, but we actually hear ghosts talk, and the location is made for it.

 

DAI has Chateau d'Onterre (you mentioned this): the location feels very much appropriate, but we never hear or see anyone. We don't hear the voice of the girl, or her ghost, we only read it in documents. And that's the closest DAI ever comes to a bit of presence in a sidequest, along with the temple of Dirthamen. Those two are significant, but they drown in the sea of dryer sidequest where we don't even have an appropriate location.

 

Have you played Planescape: Torment? There are a number of scenes whose atmosphere depends to a large degree on the haunting voice of the woman loved and/or betrayed by the Nameless One, Deionarra. Without that voice, these scenes would feel...well, perhaps not lifeless, but much less alive.

[frogkisser]

Have you played Planescape: Torment? There are a number of scenes whose atmosphere depends to a large degree on the haunting voice of the woman loved and/or betrayed by the Nameless One, Deionarra. Without that voice, these scenes would feel...well, perhaps not lifeless, but much less alive.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. I've played Torment, and I liked it well enough, but it's not my favorite of the old CRPG's. A game like Arcanum immediately springs to mind - I can't remember the story at all, but I remember the music and how much it contributed to the steampunk setting. Deionarra's voice was definitely haunting, and it was disappointing that it was so rare. 

[Spectre Impersonator]

Nah, it's just not good enough.

[cronshaw]

I think a huge problem is that the dark moments fall flat because the game doesn't do a very good job of getting you emotionally invested. Dragon Age Origins did a MUCH better job in that department.

no it didn't

[ThreeF]

Its also a matter of presentation, the Deep Roads worked so well because the entire atmosphere of the level was building up towards the Broodmother reveal, in DA:I you find charred bodies and such but its still sunny and there's cute little foxes running all over the place

I kind of like this very much.

 

Could DAI be more visual about the horrors of war etc? Sure. You don't need to analyze it  this much to see that it is sanitized, just compare Cassandra killing her apprentice and Aveline killing her husband

 

But cute little foxes is not the issue here, why should it be all pained in a miserable grey brush? Every "gritty" fantasy is muddy, grey, foggy and rainy with skull piles and bloody pools. It's all painted with the same paint over and over again.  It's as if  nobody gets killed and maimed on a sunny day. I used to find it moody, now I find it boring.  Seen one, seen all.

 

There is nothing wrong with having misery in a sunny weather and  amid cute foxes. If nothing else it's perfect in a very twisted way that even a hardened Leliana has her Schmooples.  Outward sunny things that inwards are gritty and miserable is rather an interesting concept that is seldom touched.

[Steelcan]

Sure some people may like the Fennecs running around while people are being ripped apart, but it still serves to undermine general mood setting. There's a reason certain color palattes and weather conditions are used to set mood for darker stories.