199 réponses à ce sujet

[Sartoz]

People have been clamoring to play Qunari since DAO so I think fan appeasement was a big part of it. It does seem like both Qunari and Dwarves are tacked on. There really should have been more challenges, different reactions if you chose to play anything other than human warrior /rogue. That, of course, would require much more writing and voice work but there it is.

Exactly! Different reaction... a strong negative reaction, to a Qunari in their midst, is what I expected.

 

I'm wondering which fan base was clamoring for a Qunari.. PC or console?

[baconluigi]

i still think you should have finished the game

[grimgim]

Exactly! Different reaction... a strong negative reaction, to a Qunari in their midst, is what I expected.

 

I'm wondering which fan base was clamoring for a Qunari.. PC or console?

 

Strong negative reaction may be a bit too much, are you talking about attacking you on sight or just plain racism/suspicion/wariness from the npcs? I definitely would not mind seeing more of the later.

 

How is the bolded relevant for npc reaction?

[StrangeStrategy]

1. I would have preferred auto-attack too... But you don't need to button mash, just hold the button down. It gets tedious, but if your wrists are hurting... Weak wrists, bro.

2. Crashing every 20 minutes... I used to get that pretty bad early in the game, isn't that fixed by now?

3. You're not a Qunari Mage. You're a vashoth mage.

4. Healing wasn't removed, its still in the game. Gameplay abilities don't necessarily reflect lore, you know.

5. If you didn't understand why your companions were joining you, you're not paying attention, you're just nitpicking this one.

6. The ocean of side-quests suck.

7. You didn't get that far into the game if you JUST got to Redcliffe. Come on, you're impulsive and I can't take your post seriously now if that's as far as you got.

Get. Out. Of. The. HINTERLANDS.

Honestly, Bioware needs to patch something in that forces you out of there. Worst first impression of the game possible; It does get better than that. Sort of.

[Elsariel]

@OP - a minor nitpick...

Varric and Solas are not just there because you need a mage and rogue. If you played DA2, you know why Varric is there and there is even a conversation between Cassandra and Varric about why he was there. Solas is there for plot reasons you find out about later.

[tmp7704]

I started DAI and was genuinely thrilled when I got to make a Qunari mage.  It was a chance to play as a fresh, outside perspective that DAO and DAII lacked.  But when the game started, I raised an eyebrow at the "here is your background; you are now playing the game" intertitle that replaced the prologue chapters of the first two games.  It felt odd, as if I was playing DAO and had simply been dropped into Ostagar with a pamphlet telling me about my drafting into the Grey Wardens.

I'm curious, did you feel the same way about Shepard when you played ME for which you'd saved money so eagerly, and your "origin" there was just picking a couple of sentences long blurb during the character creation? Did this similarity occur to you when DAI disappointed you with this approach?

[Kallipolis]

@Elsariel:

I do understand why Varric's present in DAI, but his and Solas' appearance in the beginning of the game seemed contrived.  They appear at your location without any sort of build-up, and all of a sudden, bam.  You've got a properly-balanced team.  But their presence at your location on the mountain was nothing more than coincidence, and a coincidence is the flimsiest way to move a plot along.

I think the problem really goes back to a lack of a real prologue.  A prologue like Ostagar and the origin stories for DAO, or the escape from Lothering in DAII would have given the writers the opportunity to reintroduce Cassandra and Varric (and catch us up on what they've been doing since DAII), as well as introduce us to Solas for the first time -- give us some reason to understand why we ought to care about this guy.

[tmp7704]

I do understand why Varric's present in DAI, but his and Solas' appearance in the beginning of the game seemed contrived.  They appear at your location without any sort of build-up, and all of a sudden, bam.  You've got a properly-balanced team.  But their presence at your location on the mountain was nothing more than coincidence, and a coincidence is the flimsiest way to move a plot along.

I think the problem really goes back to a lack of a real prologue.  A prologue like Ostagar and the origin stories for DAO, or the escape from Lothering in DAII would have given the writers the opportunity to reintroduce Cassandra and Varric (and catch us up on what they've been doing since DAII), as well as introduce us to Solas for the first time -- give us some reason to understand why we ought to care about this guy.

Varric explains the in-game reasons he's there when you talk with him about it. (and they're further toyed with in companion banter down the road) Solas' appearance is similarly explained (and if it's left vague that's quite possibly on purpose given the spoilers and hints you're provided through the game)

[dlux]

I got a refund after 10 hours of boredom. Thanks Origin. 

[Kallipolis]

@tmp7704

I think it was different with ME. Since it was the first game, I was willing to go along with the idea that Shepard was a blank slate whose history would be revealed through the game.  Mass Effect was also good about making your backstory part of the game -- crucially altered dialogue and quests that pertained to your specific background.

Now if ME2 and 3 had demanded I create new characters every game and tried to continue to do the "here is your background, welcome to the game" thing, I don't think I'd have given them as much leeway.

[Elsariel]

@Elsariel:

I think the problem really goes back to a lack of a real prologue. A prologue like Ostagar and the origin stories for DAO, or the escape from Lothering in DAII would have given the writers the opportunity to reintroduce Cassandra and Varric (and catch us up on what they've been doing since DAII), as well as introduce us to Solas for the first time -- give us some reason to understand why we ought to care about this guy.

Truth. I've been saying as much throughout the forums. Not everyone agrees though.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Truth. I've been saying as much throughout the forums. Not everyone agrees though.

 

I did and still do!

[Rizilliant]

Hi Octarin,
I have briefly glanced over your posts and I want you to know that I can fully understand your anger and critique. In fact, I ve already collected warning points from the forum moderators for telling them the truth in nice words, so we are on the same boat.

Nevertheless, I rubbed some salt into the thread participants wounds because it is simply unfair to say everything is bad. Although I prefer the older games, I do appreciate the huge amount of work they have invested in (artwork) - I just say that it is sad they wasted so much potential.
I think this one is just the next step in their evolution, transformation into a Ubisoft like company. Their games are getting increasingly similar and yet very popular and they try to copy them. You also mentioned the money aspect.

But I think it is playable and in MY country you have no legitimate right to give it back after 20!! hours of consuming the game and then say :"hey biofail, here you have it, nice try btw" I dont know how things are in the US, but this is a slap in the face to all honest ppl who have done great work, although the final product did not live up to their customers expectations well enough. And they get overfrustrated cause of pure hatred posts in their forums.

BioWare has changed, changed the focus to appeal to an Assassins Creed audience maybe. It is more action oriented, less tactical, easier. I think we have to deal with it and avoid their products in the future if the situation gets worse. But I had some good moments too, I dont gloss over that. The perma clicking and lootorgy is pure stupidity though.

So you have my respect and I hope you get my point. If you are looking for storyheavy games I'd recommend Telltale games.

 

well worded, and i agree, to a degree.. Its just very difficult to get beyond the false promises, and blatant disregard for past customers, that made them what they are today.. This frusteration is enhanced by the fact that Bioware was the company that set industry & genre standards, and has resorted to this despicible practice of appealing to the masses with more of everything, but none of it done well...

[Sartoz]

 Snip

-------
The "actionization", or "consolization", or what-have-you of DAI isn't the big problem.  When I returned DAI, I went to Steam and 

 

---------

---------

Big Snip

 

You made excellent points, some of which have been around for a while. I'd like to reply to some of them.

 

The "actionization", or "consolization", or what-have-you of DAI isn't the big problem

 

Coming from a PC DAO and DA2 universe, it is a problem. Mostly due to the new UI and game control scheme, which in previous DA games were optimised for the KB+M input device controls. The mouse is a wonderful and versatile input control device that with key to mouse bindings, can help the player perform better in combat, movement, character selection... etc. DAI inventory management and item selection screens may work for the console but not on the PC. A waste of screen real estate, unecessary menu navigation to get things done. I can go on... but you get my drift.......

 

On Companions

 

Are nine really necessary? Iron Bull I could do without,,, a strange Alien in human society, whose nation made several incursions in human territory... absolutely no need for the char, especially as a Quizzie. I expected hotile reactions... It's as if the Thedas Lore was twisted to fit a game decision.

 

On Side Quests

 

Bioware was rightfully booed for the Kirwall limitations and copy/paste dungeons. They overcompensated with DAI very giganticus regions. The problem was how to fill them and here they failed. Most quests, as you say, are just filler. Picking flowers when you have a large organization under you is just silly.... even War Table missions to get resources are limited to a) coins, stone, c) flowers and further limited by region.... why? your organization is all over the place.. don't come back with 2x iron and 3x onyx. Resource gathering should be automatic and reflect the Inquisition's growth, power and influence.

 

 I played over 250hrs with my three characters, yet I have not finished the game....very puzzling for me.

 

EDIT: to remove wall of text

[Dominic_910]

well worded, and i agree, to a degree.. Its just very difficult to get beyond the false promises, and blatant disregard for past customers, that made them what they are today.. This frusteration is enhanced by the fact that Bioware was the company that set industry & genre standards, and has resorted to this despicible practice of appealing to the masses with more of everything, but none of it done well...

This is what frustrates me too, bioware is the company that got me back into gaming. After playing Origins i searched online for other games made by bioware and found mass effect, i bought the first and second one without even playing a demo i was that confident i would enjoy it. Bioware is the first company I've actually payed any attention too, i never even used to know the names of game companies because it never mattered to me before Bioware.

 

But now, in recent years they have been extremely disappointing, between misleading old fans of their rpg's and the painfully clear misleading "Made for PC gamers by PC gamers" crap I've just lost faith in them.

 

In the future I'm just going to do what i do with every other company and wait for sales, hopefully things get better but i doubt it.

[Sartoz]

Strong negative reaction may be a bit too much, are you talking about attacking you on sight or just plain racism/suspicion/wariness from the npcs? I definitely would not mind seeing more of the later.

 

How is the bolded relevant for npc reaction?

Well for one thing, fearful would be a reaction. You are looking at a representative of an invader nation whose sole purpose was to conquer, enslave and convert you the the QUN's way of thinking. Distrust is another.  The NPCs, the "great unwashed" /peasant of Thedas/Orlais are just too accomodating and Thedas Lore tells me otherwise....

 

The bold? I'm asking why the Qunari character was included in the game and whose influenced Bioware fell prey to.

[Dominic_910]

On Side Quests

 

Bioware was rightfully booed for the Kirwall limitations and copy/paste dungeons. They overcompensated with DAI very giganticus regions. The problem was how to fill them and here they failed. Most quests, as you say, are just filler. Picking flowers when you have a large organization under you is just silly.... even War Table missions to get resources are limited to a) coins, stone, c) flowers and further limited by region.... why? your organization is all over the place.. don't come back with 2x iron and 3x onyx. Resource gathering should be automatic and reflect the Inquisition's growth, power and influence.

 

 I played over 250hrs with my three characters, yet I have not finished the game....very puzzling for me.

The problem isn't that the quests are filler, every game has filler afterall. The problem is that they aren't intresting.

 

Side quests should have Choices, cutscenes, intresting characters, companion insight(where they give their opinion on what your doing rather than just silently disapproving) and a decent reward. Even one of these things would be good but alot of the side quests had a single line of dialogue with only 2 choices, do the quest or don't do it. Some of the side quests didn't even involve dialogue, you just pick up a random note and of you go to the quest marker, there was way too many of those ones.

[Elsariel]

Strong negative reaction may be a bit too much, are you talking about attacking you on sight or just plain racism/suspicion/wariness from the npcs? I definitely would not mind seeing more of the later.

How is the bolded relevant for npc reaction?

This is what I was referring to with my original suggestion. It's currently touched on in-game but very lightly. For the most part, nobody seems to care whether you're a noble or qunari.

[Frenrihr]

@ OP - This paragraph seems to point to the problem:


* The Qunari Inquisitor is an outcast of the Qun; not part of it, especially when choosing a Mage.
* Healing is still extant; Spirit Healers are sidelined taking care of the masses, so we have potions, and more limited Spells.
* Some companions appear for the good of Thedas; others for personal agendas.
* Your quests seems to be different from the ones in my game. I accepted the ones that applied to my Inquisitor and his motives; skipped or passed on those that did not.

These problems seem to stem from a lack of understanding what is present, and the only abyss I see is one created from flawed personal expectations.

 

[Rizilliant]

Some filler, uninspired side quests.. Ok, i can live with.. However... It feels like 9/10 of the missions i do are just uninspired, garbage...They have no impact (short of maybe a new "agent" at the Skyhold).. I helped Dalish at some point, and nothing came of it, short of a "Thank You"... Half the time, im not even sure ive met the quest objective, until i see that terrible "power up" crap... Im left thinking "thats it?!! seriously?! I did all this for 2 power point? I have 150 of them!"  

 

The ONLY fun ive had, were in the main missions, companion missions, and dragon fights(though the dragon fights are so less fun in this action game setting).. If i wanted another action game, id buy God of War, or Assassins Creed, Arkham series Batman... NOT Dragon Age, one of the best rpgs ive ever played...And those were too few, and short(the main/companion missions)

 

Edit: dont get me started on the butchering of the mage skills.. Dont tell me Healing mages are all in the infirmaries..Guard, and barriers suddenly appeared, and we forgot more than HALF of our magic arsenal! Then you have the astonishing lack of character development, and companion behavior control!

[Elsariel]

Some filler, uninspired side quests.. Ok, i can live with.. However... It feels like 9/10 of the missions i do are just uninspired, garbage...They have no impact (short of maybe a new "agent" at the Skyhold).. I helped Dalish at some point, and nothing came of it, short of a "Thank You"... Half the time, im not even sure ive met the quest objective, until i see that terrible "power up" crap... Im left thinking "thats it?!! seriously?! I did all this for 2 power point? I have 150 of them!"

The ONLY fun ive had, were in the main missions, companion missions, and dragon fights(though the dragon fights are so less fun in this action game setting).. If i wanted another action game, id buy God of War, or Assassins Creed, Arkham series Batman... NOT Dragon Age, one of the best rpgs ive ever played...And those were too few, and short(the main/companion missions)

Edit: dont get me started on the butchering of the mage skills.. Dont tell me Healing mages are all in the infirmaries..Guard, and barriers suddenly appeared, and we forgot more than HALF of our magic arsenal! Then you have the astonishing lack of character development, and companion behavior control!

Did you not get the agent? That Dalish dude who wants to join the inquisition will join once you get Dalish approval maxed.

[Frenrihr]

Hey all, this is Kallipolis again.  I'm not so used to commenting on forums, so it was a little bit of a surprise to see that this thread got so big overnight.  I absolutely appreciate hearing the multiplicity of opinions expressed here, and really, it's nice to know that I'm not standing alone in the wilderness, throwing rocks at the fortress wall, as it were.

But I didn't want people to think that I was judging them if they liked the game.  Far from it -- I'm honestly happy for you if you enjoyed DAI.  Games you enjoy are games you enjoy, and nobody has the right to tell you what your tastes ought to be.  I mean, for all its bad design, I enjoyed DAII despite the fact that it's regarded as merely a few shades more enjoyable than the Hantavirus.  I think that DAI had the skeleton of an uncontestedly good game.  Just go to Metacritic, and you'll see that commenters are divided because DAI isn't a straightforwardly bad game.  What baffles me is that BioWare could have had their cake and eaten it too:  They could have appealed to gamers like me and appealed to whatever market they were aiming for with DAI if they had just made simple design changes.

The "actionization", or "consolization", or what-have-you of DAI isn't the big problem.  When I returned DAI, I went to Steam and downloaded BioShock Infinite and Deus Ex: Human Revolution -- and I really loved them, despite the fact that they were well out of my comfort zone regarding action games.  But I asked myself, "Why did I enjoy those two action games and not DAI?"  In BioShock Infinite, the flabbiness of the gameplay was outweighed by an imaginative, charming story that was both tight and well-paced.  In DX:HR, the big, open areas are filled with people, secrets, and information to discover.  Quests are given by real people, and they feel like they have emotional weight behind them.  For instance, in Hengsha, China, my character was asked by a high-ranking prostitute to assassinate a crime boss looking to force her girls to undergo risky surgery.  You can actually argue the morality of murder with her, and if you do, she offers you another way to complete the quest!  I'm not a designer, but I don't think that the infamous "gather ram meat" quest in the Hinterlands wouldn't have been so objectionable if the quest had actually demanded reflection on the part of the player.  What if, when you gathered the ram meat, the game said that you had to make a decision as Inquisitor about who got the most food?  You could choose to feed militia-worthy individuals in order to draft them into your army (reflected in Power gained from the quest); you could choose to feed artisans and crafters in order to get more items and resources; or you could order that the ram meat be given preferentially to children and the sick and elderly, despite it not being an advantageous choice.  That's what an RPG is to me:  Not the collection of the ram meat, but the reflection on what to do with it after you have it.

I want to talk about some of the points that were brought up by people like Elhanan (whose opinions I do respect in this instance):

"Dragon Age lore paints Spirit Healers as rare. / Potions were the new design by BioWare."

It might surprise you to know that I agree about the Spirit Healers, to an extent.  DAO made it so that certain specializations were unlocked after interesting choices and quests (Blood Mage, Reaver, and Arcane Warrior, for example).  But DAO failed in giving the rarer specializations equal screen-time.  The Spirit Healers we see in the Dragon Age games, Finn excluded, are people who've had questionable relationships with spirits.  The Legionnaire Scouts in Awakening are dwarves who've trained in Taint- and lyrium-imbued caves for years.  How did the Warden gain Spirit Healer powers?  How did Hawke become a Reaver, when that requires drinking magically-prepared dragon blood?  DAI had the right idea by making specializations the product of a quest, but they lost a golden opportunity by removing Spirit Healer and Blood Mage totally.  It would have been a nod to previous games and, frankly, an awesome quest that the game needed to go into the Fade and commune with a demon or spirit to gain either the Spirit Healer or Blood Mage specializations.

Replacing healing with potions didn't feel like a positive move.  It reminded me of the most annoying parts of the Vancian magic system -- all of my forward progress, all of my spectacular battles, were hobbled by the fact that I kept thinking, "Oh great, another battle.  How many of my potions is this one going to drain?"  I don't find it fun to have to stop my exploration of a giant world every five minutes to trudge back to a camp, then trudge back to where I was.  Video games are all about immersion, and running around for potions made me feel more like an office worker who had to refill the printer than an epic hero come to save the land.

"Your big grey Inquisitor is Vashoth, not a follower of the Qun."

I understood the differentiation (and thought it would be fun to be a Saarebas after seeing their fascinating characterization in DAII).  But Andrastean Thedans aren't me.  They see seven foot-tall grey horned giants who can control fire, and their first response is to turn to the Chantry's teachings:  All the grey giants are Qunari.  The Qunari are all heretics.  Mages are tainted with a communicable original sin that sets them apart from God.  It struck me as unrealistic that centuries of dogma instilled in the heads of fearful, uneducated peasantry would be overturned the moment a Qunari mage (suspected of killing the Divine) showed up with an unexplainable glowing effect in her hand.  The writers had a opportunity to introduce a genuinely alternative storyline for such an unorthodox character, but after seventeen hours, I didn't notice any real differentiation between a human Inquisitor and a Qunari one.  I didn't play the elf or dwarf characters, but I'd be willing to bet that it's largely the same problem for their players too.

"Your companions aren't all working for the same goals."

That wasn't my complaint.  In fact, only two companions in DAO are working towards the same goal as the Warden:  Alistair and Wynne.  Morrigan wants a tainted child.  Zevran wants to die.  Shale and Oghren are without a home or identity, and follow the Warden because they have nowhere else to go.  It is a Sten's role in the Qun to submit to the will of a superior.  Leliana, as we see in DAII and DAI, may be following the Warden to spy on them.  Dog follows the Warden not because he cares about Darkspawn, but because he loves the Warden.

What bothered me about DAI's companions was that there seemed to be no reason for them to become my companions in the most familiar sense of the word.  Solas and Varric just appear with no more a build-up than, "We happened to be in the neighborhood, and it looked like you needed a rogue and a mage."  With Blackwall, Leliana just sort of tells you, "We heard there was a Grey Warden in the area.  Go get him, Inquisitor!"  Iron Bull shows up and pretty much shrugs, offering his assistance out of the blue.  That disappoints me, if only because the previous Dragon Age games gave you a "test run" with all of your companions to get to connect with them before you brought them into the main quest.  In some places, whole levels were designed for that goal.  Sigrun and Kal Hirol from Awakening come to mind.

"Side quests are purely optional."

They are.  But I don't find that a good argument for the tedium of DAI's side quests.  DAO, for example, was packed full of side quests too.  But in DAO, most of the side quests feel like they create new stories for your Warden and expand the world in some way.  It wasn't executed perfectly -- the "Denerim thieves' guild" quests are banal in the extreme -- but Slim Couldry and his quests were small, almost meaningless, and ended up being absolute jewels regardless.  Side quest doesn't have to mean "busywork".

Plus, DAI is about 60% side quests.  For better or worse, It's the natural result of trying to create a game world like Skyrim.  If you ask me to go without them, I suddenly find myself paying sixty dollars for a third of a game.  If I can't ask EA to pay only twenty dollars to play 1/3d of their game, then it seems only fair that EA has to provide a game where 2/3d of the content is more than rock-collecting.

 

 

-Gotta catch them all!!!!

 

-More like 80%

[grimgim]

Well for one thing, fearful would be a reaction. You are looking at a representative of an invader nation whose sole purpose was to conquer, enslave and convert you the the QUN's way of thinking. Distrust is another.  The NPCs, the "great unwashed" /peasant of Thedas/Orlais are just too accomodating and Thedas Lore tells me otherwise....

 

The bold? I'm asking why the Qunari character was included in the game and whose influenced Bioware fell prey to.

 

Oh, but I definitely agree with you on the npc reaction. I guess the Kossith being playable was due to fan demand, the playable platform doesn't seem relevant in this case.

 

This is what I was referring to with my original suggestion. It's currently touched on in-game but very lightly. For the most part, nobody seems to care whether you're a noble or qunari.

 

Yes, I agree with your original post. The world would seem more alive, more fleshed out. The PC is not a follower of the Qun but that doesn't mean the rest of npcs should know that automatically. My expectations for the dwarves were already short! 

[Spectre Impersonator]

There's something way off with the game. It doesn't immerse or engage most players the way previous Bioware games have. DA2, for all the hate it got, was much better than this.

[SofaJockey]

It's a bit tough saying something nice about the game on this thread, so I won't make a long post.

 

I'm sad for the OP that the game didn't work out for them.

It's certainly the game I most enjoyed the most in 2014, I've completed 3 play throughs, and I am really enjoying the multiplayer.

 

I've certainly put in hundreds of hours into it, though the Xbox counts time when you are not actually playing so I can't be sure of how many hundreds.

 

As DAI is BioWare's most critically acclaimed game this presents somewhat of a dilemma because despite the positive reception, it's not as excellent as it could have been and this why I think that is:

 

I think the move to Frostbite 3 was more challenging than anticipated and some of the features of DAO and DA2 have not been able to have been recreated in the new engine, which after all was built for shooter games. 

 

The people most in a position to notice where the game was rough around the edges were actually the series enthusiasts, not the game critics.

 

Where it has hurt most is in the loss of even small cinematics surrounding some quests. Even a small quest can be memorable if there is a strong pay-off at the end of it. 

 

Overall though, I'd put DAI on par with DAO, both are great games.

I enjoyed DA2, but that had some repeating content issues as we know, but it was still good.

 

To stay positive, I think DAI sets a good start on a new engine, for the future, if the game engine can be finessed, improved, and some of the features that people have commented on that have been lost from previous games, some more Tactics options particularly, then with the right writing DA4 will be outstanding.