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[Broganisity]

Long ago in a dark grainy world there was this smelly cook...

Broganisity slightly approves

[Sifr]

Of course, to be a free thinker one only has to agree with Solas. Doesn't cross his mind that maybe the people are free thinkers but join organizations with ideals that they already believe in. Solas is a condescending jerk. He prattles on about the virtues of free thinking but only if that free thinking leads them to the ame ideas he has.

 

Part of free thinking is acknowledging that people won't always agree with you, but the point is, at least they are thinking for themselves.

 

For the most part, Solas acknowledges and apologises when he's been condescending towards others, as well as pushing his own viewpoint on others. As others have pointed out, he respects Ser Barris despite his dislike of Templars, because he recognises that Barris was one of those rare Templars who questioned his superiors and orders when he felt they were wrong, instead of blindly following his leaders to certain destruction.

[MikeJW]

Part of free thinking is acknowledging that people won't always agree with you, but the point is, at least they are thinking for themselves.

 

For the most part, Solas acknowledges and apologises when he's been condescending towards others, as well as pushing his own viewpoint on others. As others have pointed out, he respects Ser Barris despite his dislike of Templars, because he recognises that Barris was one of those rare Templars who questioned his superiors and orders when he felt they were wrong, instead of blindly following his leaders to certain destruction.

 

My point is, why assume that the templars who followed didn't think for themselves but come to a different conclusion. A stupid, wrong conclusion but one they believed in. He sees Barris as a free thinker because Barris thinks like he did on this issue. If Barris sat down and thought about it but agreed with the other templars is he still a free thinker in the eyes of Solas? We really don't know how many templars blindly followed. It's nice to think they were just normal people who went along to get along but I don't believe that.

[introverted_assassin]

I always attributed it to criminals not having a choice. Also, even SOME criminals have a particular set of skills that may be useful.

[Viper371]

Seriously when I look at various threads there are people claiming that the Warden's numbers are mostly criminals conscripted from jail and there are rare non-criminal wardens. Where did this come from? I mean I know they can conscript, but Wardens hire from the best they can find, not go to Fort Drakon and have everyone go through the Joining. Remember that the cocktail requires archdemon blood so they can't just give it to every criminal and risk 90% of their recruits running away or dying on the first fight cause they want Wardens capable of surviving. 

I'm sorry, I know the Wardens screwed up in this game but that's no reason to call them an army of murderers and rapists. The Legion of the Dead are made of criminals, but Wardens can be both conscripted from anyone (and this includes more than just prisons) and join voluntarily. 

criminal does not equal rapist or murderer.

 

You could be a criminal by standing up to an unjust noble.  In Orlais, you could be a criminal by defending a rape victim from a Chevalier.  Criticizing the King/Queen or your realm most likely makes you a criminal (it's not implicitely said).  Look at the event of DA:O:  Your Warden was a criminal.  He resisted the legal authority of his realm or defied ancient customs.  Doesn't matter if he/she's innocent, the law says your character is a criminal.

You could be a criminal because some Lord decided to take over your lands and the new King approves this (Noble origine in DA:O, Nathaniel Howe in Awakening.

Or look at Meryll in DA2.  She had Hawke's&co support for the aftermath, but in another situation, alone, faced with expulsion maybe even death from her fellow Elves, she might have no choice to join de Grey Warden, either because one conscripted her or because she had nowhere else to go.
Or look at Sigrun from Awakening: she abandonned her post, that's a crime for the Legion of the Dead (and most military organisations too).

 

So, from a certain point of view, yes, most Wardens have a criminal background.  That does not make them rapists&murdereres.

[Sifr]

My point is, why assume that the templars who followed didn't think for themselves but come to a different conclusion. A stupid, wrong conclusion but one they believed in. He sees Barris as a free thinker because Barris thinks like he did on this issue. If Barris sat down and thought about it but agreed with the other templars is he still a free thinker in the eyes of Solas? We really don't know how many templars blindly followed. It's nice to think they were just normal people who went along to get along but I don't believe that.

 

The point is, as long as they thought for themselves, then their decisions good or bad are their own. Cassandra's apprentice made a poor choice in choosing to stay with the Seekers despite not believing in the war either, but it was at least, his decision to make. I think the problem Solas has is not people making choices he doesn't agree with, but when people follow orders without question.

 

We know that not all Templars believed in what they were doing under the Lord Seeker, we know that some Wardens at Adamant disliked what they were doing and chose to rebel against their superiors and we know that some Qunari dislike what the Qun demands of them.

 

The problem however remains, that those Templars who don't follow their superiors without question tend to be kicked out of the order or punished for disloyalty, the Warden ally and the rebel Wardens at Adamant were in danger of being cut down by their comrades and any Qunari who questions too much is either mind-wiped, killed or declared Tal-Vashoth.

 

Solas might be exaggerating it a little too much, but he's not wrong that "Sit down and do as we say" seems to often be the order of business.

[Korva]

Of course, to be a free thinker one only has to agree with Solas. Doesn't cross his mind that maybe the people are free thinkers but join organizations with ideals that they already believe in. Solas is a condescending jerk. He prattles on about the virtues of free thinking but only if that free thinking leads them to the ame ideas he has.

 

Yep. I like the character much of the time, but at other times he is undeniably an unbearably smug, hypocritical arsehole who bashes others without offering so much as a peep as an alternative solution. The revelation about his true nature makes that even worse. As badly as the Wardens sometimes mess up, as inexcusable as some of their actions have been, they were and are the only ones standing between Thedas and the Blights. Anyone who wants to ****** all over their basic "accept a harsh life and eventual nasty death to protect an ungrateful world from the darkspawn" method had better be prepared to not only offer a "better" alternative, but also to personally suffer, bleed and sacrifice as much as the Wardens do in implementing it. I wish there had been a way to throw that in Solas' face.

 

I'm a wee bit upset about just how much the Wardens are bashed post-Origins because I do believe their cause is a good one and I enjoyed playing my Warden ... and sacrificing her as the creed calls for. That is still one of the most satisfying endings to a game that I've ever seen.

[SgtSteel91]

Yep. I like the character much of the time, but at other times he is undeniably an unbearably smug, hypocritical arsehole who bashes others without offering so much as a peep as an alternative solution. The revelation about his true nature makes that even worse. As badly as the Wardens sometimes mess up, as inexcusable as some of their actions have been, they were and are the only ones standing between Thedas and the Blights. Anyone who wants to ****** all over their basic "accept a harsh life and eventual nasty death to protect an ungrateful world from the darkspawn" method had better be prepared to not only offer a "better" alternative, but also to personally suffer, bleed and sacrifice as much as the Wardens do in implementing it. I wish there had been a way to throw that in Solas' face.

 

I'm a wee bit upset about just how much the Wardens are bashed post-Origins because I do believe their cause is a good one and I enjoyed playing my Warden ... and sacrificing her as the creed calls for. That is still one of the most satisfying endings to a game that I've ever seen.

 

I can see how much the Wardens mean to you and I hope I don't offend you by saying this but...

 

I see the Warden's sense of honor and sacrifice as bullshit to hide the fact they know so little about the Darkspawn and the Taint that they stick to the only method they know to battle it, which results in killing themselves. But what gets me is that before Origins, they have made little attempt to understand the Darkspawn and the nature of the Blight. I also enjoyed playing a Warden, but one who rebells against that tradition, being more in line with Blackwall's "promise to protect others, even at the cost of your own life," siding with Avernus and letting him continue with his research, doing the Dark Ritual with Morrigan (who they romanced), and then being happy that that they are setting out to try to understand the Taint to cure the Calling in themselves and all Wardens.

 

I think that's what steams Solas, that the Wardens know so little about the Blight and Old Gods and make no attempt to understand them.

[Master Warder Z_]

You seem to forget Blackwall said that the world would be better of if people stuck to killing evil rather then wondering how it came to be.

That's actually almost a exact quote.

[Sifr]

Yep. I like the character much of the time, but at other times he is undeniably an unbearably smug, hypocritical arsehole who bashes others without offering so much as a peep as an alternative solution. The revelation about his true nature makes that even worse. As badly as the Wardens sometimes mess up, as inexcusable as some of their actions have been, they were and are the only ones standing between Thedas and the Blights. Anyone who wants to ****** all over their basic "accept a harsh life and eventual nasty death to protect an ungrateful world from the darkspawn" method had better be prepared to not only offer a "better" alternative, but also to personally suffer, bleed and sacrifice as much as the Wardens do in implementing it. I wish there had been a way to throw that in Solas' face.

 

While I like Solas, I must admit, I would enjoy Blackwall throwing it back in his face after learning his true identity;

 

Blackwall: So, remember how you kept disparaging the Wardens for having no real plan when it came to the Blights?

Solas: Since you are no true Warden, I don't see why you would be offended... but yes, what of it?

Blackwall: Oh nothing, just wondering how your plan to lock away your fellow Gods was working out for you? Was it everything you hoped?

[SgtSteel91]

You seem to forget Blackwall said that the world would be better of if people stuck to killing evil rather then wondering how it came to be.

That's actually almost a exact quote.

 

I only said that they agreed with Blackwall's sense of a Warden being a promise to protect others, not everything Blackwall says.

 

And what's wrong with the X-Com method of understanding the enemy so that you can better fight them? What if it's possible to cure the Calling? Or to have the power of the Taint but none of the drawbacks? Shouldn't the Wardens at least try to understand the Taint in that sense? Apparently not, since they kick Fiona out when she's actually cured of the Taint and don't try to study how that happened.

[Steelcan]

Because the order was originally based on the Night's Watch from ASoIaF

[AshesEleven]

I'll bring Solas and Blackwall on occasion, but listening to Solas take potshots at the Grey Wardens w/ no basis for his claims gets kinda old after a while.

I wonder if Solas knows more about the Blight than he lets on, which is why he gets almost irrationally angry about the Grey Warden business...

[Shechinah]

(to Sifr) I like Solas too but I'm hoping for a DLC with post-reveal banter in it too. It would be so glorious-

 

Dorian: "So Solas? That whole..."

Vivienne: "Hobo apostate"

Dorian: "Ah yes, hobo apostate look - is that fashionable amongst all the Dalish "gods" these days or are you just rebelling against taste?"

[SgtSteel91]

I wonder if Solas knows more about the Blight than he lets on, which is why he gets almost irrationally angry about the Grey Warden business...

 

I think he knows a lot, but just doesn't tell since I guess he believes no one will listen to him or believe him.

[Steelcan]

I wonder if Solas knows more about the Blight than he lets on, which is why he gets almost irrationally angry about the Grey Warden business...

I'm inclined to think that the Old Gods sealed underground were half of the Dalish pantheon, the others were sealed beyond the Fade

 

the wardens are killing other beings like him

[Korva]

@Sifr:

 

@SgtSteel91: No offense taken, no worries! And I hope the same is true in reverse when I say that I just loathe and despise Morrigan too much to ever trust her or want anything to do with her or give her anything she wants. Her presence in Inquisition put a huge damper on my enjoyment of the following story-parts.

 

Thing is, the Wardens do know more than anyone else. They were created from a measure of pure, last-ditch despair because everything else had been tried and failed during the First Blight. It's not like some suicidally uncaring, ignorant yokels drank archdemon blood just for kicks and giggles. We can definitely blame them for being too secretive with what they know, though, just as we can blame the world for not giving a fart as long as the darkspawn are out of sight and out of mind.

 

There's also the question of why anyone should care for the so-called old gods and thus object to what the Wardens are doing. Even if one doesn't believe in the Chantry's teachings, the fact remains that Old Tevinter worshipped these monstrosities and committed countless atrocities in their name. Compared to that, simply saying "They are old and magical and powerful and special!" isn't going to pull much weight with anyone who just wants to eke out their hard living in relative peace and not suffer any further for yet more oh-so-"special" causes that don't ever concern themselves with the little people, i.e. all those who aren't oh-so-"special".

 

The Wardens doubtlessly need reforms. They desperately need more Blackwalls and Alistairs and fewer people all-too-willing to become monsters to fight monsters. More openness and accountability. My own Warden definitely was more Blackwall-like as well and would have blown an entire good-sized country's supply of fuses at what Clarel and her followers did. She'd approve of how the Wardens who stay with the Inquisition seemingly turn out when the player doesn't banish them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Seriously when I look at various threads there are people claiming that the Warden's numbers are mostly criminals conscripted from jail and there are rare non-criminal wardens. Where did this come from? I mean I know they can conscript, but Wardens hire from the best they can find, not go to Fort Drakon and have everyone go through the Joining. Remember that the cocktail requires archdemon blood so they can't just give it to every criminal and risk 90% of their recruits running away or dying on the first fight cause they want Wardens capable of surviving. 
 

 

The key words are 'political expediency.'

 

The Warden Right of Conscription is unlimited in practice, anyone from Peasants to Kings, but look a little bit beneath that and you'll see that the Wardens only get whatever they ask for so long as they don't ask for more than what the local ruler is willing to give. Look further below that, and you'll note that 'the best they can find' is often 'the best they can find and are able to get.' Bryce Couseland might have been willing to give up a knight in the face of the Blight- giving up the Noble Warden was a different question.

 

From our own experiences as and with the Wardens, outlaws and criminals whose primary virtue was 'are available' rather than 'are the best of the best' have been the norm for Wardens. Duncan was a criminal recruited with a motive of revenge, not quality. Four of the five Wardens the player can be are recruited as criminals (real or framed), while Awakening gives us a few more for good measure and not a single recruit on the basis of 'this is the best.' Bethany and Carver raise their hands in DA2, while Blackwall steps up in DAI.

 

'Quality' clearly isn't the watchword for Warden recruitment- in so much as there are standards, it's 'opportunity.' When relying on conscription, though, opportunity doesn't lie with the best and brightest and most honorable- those are the sort that kings and nobles and influential people are most opposed to losing. The Wardens don't have the weight or the capital to constantly offend and annoy the socially powerful. The past of least resistance (and the most 'redemptive honor' schtic) will be with the lowest of the low, including the prisoners.

[AshesEleven]

I'm inclined to think that the Old Gods sealed underground were half of the Dalish pantheon, the others were sealed beyond the Fade

the wardens are killing other beings like him

That's what I think, too. I also think he knows something bad happens if they all die, which is why he was questioning Blackwall about that.

[Feranel]

(to Sifr) I like Solas too but I'm hoping for a DLC with post-reveal banter in it too. It would be so glorious-

 

Dorian: "So Solas? That whole..."

Vivienne: "Hobo apostate"

Dorian: "Ah yes, hobo apostate look - is that fashionable amongst all the Dalish "gods" these days or are you just rebelling against taste?"

*unwashed

[Korva]

That is a good point, but it does beg the question how all these unwilling recruits and criminals are kept under control, especially if they make up the majority of the Wardens including the leaders. I can imagine that the Joining scares some of them straight if what they see is even half as nasty as what our Warden saw ... though that requires an "active" archdemon. For the rest, sure, there's the threat of execution if they desert. But it still strikes me as a ticking timebomb -- and one possible reason why so many Wardens seem to use questionable methods.

 

There's a pretty strong element of brotherhood among the Wardens, of "us against the world", but that won't appeal to everyone either, especially those who were always selfish. How do the Wardens expect people who never cared for the tenets of their creed (namely sacrifice) to suddenly embody them? Do any of the books or comics try to explain that?

[Sifr]

The key words are 'political expediency.'

 

The Warden Right of Conscription is unlimited in practice, anyone from Peasants to Kings, but look a little bit beneath that and you'll see that the Wardens only get whatever they ask for so long as they don't ask for more than what the local ruler is willing to give. Look further below that, and you'll note that 'the best they can find' is often 'the best they can find and are able to get.' Bryce Couseland might have been willing to give up a knight in the face of the Blight- giving up the Noble Warden was a different question.

 

From our own experiences as and with the Wardens, outlaws and criminals whose primary virtue was 'are available' rather than 'are the best of the best' have been the norm for Wardens. Duncan was a criminal recruited with a motive of revenge, not quality. Four of the five Wardens the player can be are recruited as criminals (real or framed), while Awakening gives us a few more for good measure and not a single recruit on the basis of 'this is the best.' Bethany and Carver raise their hands in DA2, while Blackwall steps up in DAI.

 

'Quality' clearly isn't the watchword for Warden recruitment- in so much as there are standards, it's 'opportunity.' When relying on conscription, though, opportunity doesn't lie with the best and brightest and most honorable- those are the sort that kings and nobles and influential people are most opposed to losing. The Wardens don't have the weight or the capital to constantly offend and annoy the socially powerful. The past of least resistance (and the most 'redemptive honor' schtic) will be with the lowest of the low, including the prisoners.

 

Exactly so, in theory the Wardens have the right to conscript anyone they want and take anything they want without question, especially during a Blight. In practice however and inbetween Blights, they're forced to rely on their guile more often then not to acquire aid and recruits, since "the treaties are about as binding as a clever tongue can make them".

[o Ventus]

They read way too much into what the inquisitor asks blackwall.

 

Which was "I heard a lot of grey wardens were once criminals."

Considering several other things he says about the Wardens, he's probably just talking out of his ass to keep up his charade. As far as I can tell, he never met any other Wardens except for the real Blackwall.

[Broganisity]

There's a pretty strong element of brotherhood among the Wardens, of "us against the world", but that won't appeal to everyone either, especially those who were always selfish. How do the Wardens expect people who never cared for the tenets of their creed (namely sacrifice) to suddenly embody them? Do any of the books or comics try to explain that?

Not that I know of.

However, it's my belief that wardens don't just recruit anyone based just on the concept of 'who is skilled/useful' but who is useful, skilled, and stout-hearted.

Would Duncan have conscripted Daveth if he didn't believe Daveth was good-at-heart? The cutpurse-turned-recruit's willingness to partake in the Joining shows this...and he/an unreliable criminal probably would have been killed like Ser jory (admittedly the later'ss refusal is through hesitation/cowardice) if he tried to refuse the ritual after his recruitment/conscriptment. Would you have anyone watch your back who you didn't believe was trustworthy?

 

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To go back to my referencing the story of 'The Dog That Bit': While first seeing only the dog's strength, The Tribal chief chose Hohaku's brother to guard his son rather than Hohaku himself, for his people told him that Hohaku was greedy, prideful, and malicious towards his fellow hounds and to the tribe itself. The chief chose Hohaku's brother for, while not as strong, he was loyal.

When Hohaku did not get his way, he charged and bit the hand of the chief. Disgraced the dog fled into the village, where he was promptly killed by the people he was supposed to protect.

 

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I think the Wardens choose their recruits with more scrutiny than people give them credit for.

[Sifr]

The novels also imply that Duncan recruited Daveth because he reminded him of himself at that age. The only difference is that Daveth was more willing to become a Warden than he had been and that sadly, Daveth didn't make it through the Joining.