The novels also imply that Duncan recruited Daveth because he reminded him of himself at that age. The only difference is that Daveth was more willing to become a Warden than he had been and that sadly, Daveth didn't make it through the Joining.
I thought of that as well. Should have mentioned it.
Broganisity Slightly Approves
That is a good point, but it does beg the question how all these unwilling recruits and criminals are kept under control, especially if they make up the majority of the Wardens including the leaders. I can imagine that the Joining scares some of them straight if what they see is even half as nasty as what our Warden saw ... though that requires an "active" archdemon. For the rest, sure, there's the threat of execution if they desert. But it still strikes me as a ticking timebomb -- and one possible reason why so many Wardens seem to use questionable methods.
The basic way is probably the threat of kicking them out if they misbehave, and hunting them down if they abandon. For the criminals on death row, the Wardens are the reprieve from the butcher's block. If they misbehave too much, the Wardens can simply hand them over for sentencing. If they try to flee, then not only are they outlaws, but they're outlaws with a built-in taint trail for taint-detectors.
Is that hundred percent compliance? Certainly not- Anders is a good example. But can it be 'enough' to be sustainable? Sure.
There's a pretty strong element of brotherhood among the Wardens, of "us against the world", but that won't appeal to everyone either, especially those who were always selfish. How do the Wardens expect people who never cared for the tenets of their creed (namely sacrifice) to suddenly embody them? Do any of the books or comics try to explain that?
They probably don't. Simple as that.
Romantics aside, there is no 'ideal' Wardend or what not based on idealism. Instead it's far more about fatalism (we are tainted, and we will die), and the community/solidarity of those who share and can understand it (the whispers, the taint, the feeling of Darkspawn). Wanting or valuing the tenant of sacrifice is secondary to the recognition and comiseration of it.
Not that I know of.
However, it's my belief that wardens don't just recruit anyone based just on the concept of 'who is skilled/useful' but who is useful, skilled, and stout-hearted.
That would be credible had Warden recruitment practices that we've seen focused on 'useful, skilled, and stout-hearted' as categories. Duncan primarily cared about skill.
The Warden recruits in Awakening were mostly opportunities of chance- the recruits with the most demonstrated ability pre-Wardenhood are Oghren (arguably meeting the criteria) and Velenna (who only meets the criteria in so much that being duped into murder of innocents is success). In DA2, the recruitment of Bethany/Carver is pretty much entirely on the grounds of 'they'll die of the blight anyways, so why not?' In DAI, Blackwall's recruitment appears to have been less 'Ranier proved his skill' and more 'random meeting in a pub.'
Would Duncan have conscripted Daveth if he didn't believe Daveth was good-at-heart? The cutpurse-turned-recruit's willingness to partake in the Joining shows this...and he/an unreliable criminal probably would have been killed like Ser jory (admittedly the later'ss refusal is through hesitation/cowardice) if he tried to refuse the ritual after his recruitment/conscriptment. Would you have anyone watch your back who you didn't believe was trustworthy?
You're switching the line of questioning, which has an obvious answer: Duncan would absolutely conscript someone who wasn't good at heart, because Duncan is totally willing to conscript the PC. Who can be an exceptionally evil *******.
Setting aside that 'useful, skilled, and stout-hearted' in no way imply virtuous or trustworthy, Duncan already has a mediocre record on recruiting even by those standards. Jory was, by your verdict, a coward. Alistair was immature and willing to abandon the Blight because of a personal grudge, which is antithetical to being stout-hearted or committed to the cause. And the PC... well, the PC could be as inept as one desired (and able to rely on companions).
It is curious because Grey Warden's task demands a sense of duty and self-sacrifice not normally expected from criminals. Considering the Blight is a menace to everyone, does all the population would expect to be saved by a group consisted of outlaws?
It's a group with a high mortality rate and grounded on people bettering themselves with it. It balances out. The criminals ether die off, better themselves for the cause or leave knowing they will live short lives.
I think people sometimes forget that many of the criminals didn't survive the Joining.
I figure that the money they get comes from donations, trading, and the odd job posting found on chantry boards.
Most Wardens seem to be taught to be self-sufficient and hunt for their food, which fits with Alistair comments in Origins about his infamously bad cooking and unappealing rabbit stew, coupled with Morrigan's annoyance when the dog left a dead rabbit in her knapsack suggesting that the party often hunted for their food.
As a former soldier himself before he took Blackwall's name, it would make sense that Rainier would be used to living rough and probably how to hunt and live off the land, especially when he was short of a few bob and couldn't afford a decent meal at a tavern. Having squandered the money he won in the Grand Tourney in under two years and being not adverse to a hefty bribe, one can assume that Rainier has a tendency to squander his cash like Gamlen, forcing him to find other ways to make the quick bit of cash on the side?
I meant minor nobles and such in and around Ferelden. Just wave one of the treaties and eat for a day.
Is that hundred percent compliance? Certainly not- Anders is a good example. But can it be 'enough' to be sustainable? Sure.
Eirene wins. End of discussion.
Good points, Dean.
The big problem overall is that Bioware doesn't give us enough diversity with the faction (especially with characters we directly interact with), at least in regards to the specific characters we meet or hear about. This leads to that wonderful thing that people hate: Stereotyping. I've taken the liberty to compiling a category listing which may not be entirely complete so my apologies in that regard.
With this list in mind, and my thanks to the wiki and game codexes, Bioware likes giving us characters with seedy backstories because it's supposedly more interesting. We don't know how many wardens they are across Thedas, but to say that the majority are former criminals is to assume and stereotype.
It is no different in saying that 'All Orlesians wear poofy dresses and care more about appearances physical and political than they do about actually solving legitimate problems plaguing their country', or 'Everyone in Tevinter is a blood mage who follows a creepy guy named Coffee Face' not to mention 'All Qunari are dedicated solely to the Qun or are either re-programmed or killed off'. We have more examples (not to mention 'notable' examples) compared to examples to the contrary.
...Or maybe we're right to stereotype and I'm just wishy-washy. I won't lie in saying I've got a positive outlook on the Wardens, and not because of Origins.
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EDIT because it took me forever to make this list with other stuff coming up
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I figure that the money they get comes from donations, trading, and the odd job posting found on chantry boards.
They should make the Grey Wardens bankers, like the Knights Templar. It would explain how the order is able to function. Also that might lead to some interesting subplots, if say...a king is deeply in debt.
(to Han Shot First) The Warden in charge of accounting is either the luckiest guy alive or the most unluckiest guy alive;
Warden Accountant: "Ha! I get to sit behind this desk and run paperwork while everybody else goes get themselves killed facing darkspawn or getting lost in the Deep Roads!
-Years later-
Warden Accountant: "Ughh, the Calling can't come too soon."
The Wardens do have political authority though,they are the defacto rulers of most of the Anderfells.
By all accounts its a poor, thinly peopled, underdeveloped nation, but its also rather large and its resource potential is there I imagine. Throw in wealthy donors/volunteers/conscripts, Nathaniel's grandfather would have likely brought some material wealth with him to the Order and its possible they could maintain a presence in many areas. They certainly couldn't field an army on par with the nations like Orlais and Tevinter,but they could support likely several thousand warriors based off of the Anderfells and other holdings. Adamant for example might also serve as a mine in between Blights and so on.
Speculation of course, but its not infeasible that the wardens could maintain a strong presence in the areas near the Anderfells.
Continuing off this, Warden Sophia used her charisma and noble connections to increase the Grey Warden's presence and prestige in Ferelden...Prior to the Warden-acked rebellion and the Battle at Soldier's Peak.
The Wardens do have political authority though,they are the defacto rulers of most of the Anderfells.
By all accounts its a poor, thinly peopled, underdeveloped nation, but its also rather large and its resource potential is there I imagine. Throw in wealthy donors/volunteers/conscripts, Nathaniel's grandfather would have likely brought some material wealth with him to the Order and its possible they could maintain a presence in many areas. They certainly couldn't field an army on par with the nations like Orlais and Tevinter,but they could support likely several thousand warriors based off of the Anderfells and other holdings. Adamant for example might also serve as a mine in between Blights and so on.
Speculation of course, but its not infeasible that the wardens could maintain a strong presence in the areas near the Anderfells.
I think that Solas' problem with the Wardens, Templars and Qunari is due to the lack of free-thinking that each employ.
He's right when he points out that the Warden's entire game plan is to seek out Archdemons to slay in the hope that once they've killed them all, the Blights will finally be over... when there's absolutely no evidence that this will work and that the Blights won't simply continue, regardless?
He's right when he points out that the Templars far too often fall prey to dogma and overzealousness in how they go about their job, treating mages as guilty until proven innocent and any mage outside the Circle as a potential maleficar, regardless of whether or not they are or have been actively presenting a danger to anyone?
He's also right when points out that the Qun is very restrictive when it comes to free thinking, to the extent that they have re-educators in place to prevent anyone questioning or thinking too far outside the box? Under the Qun, you're allowed to think only what the Qun allows you to think, or as Hawke noted in DA2, "You're free to choose to obey..."
Agreed. Solas is a creature of reason and logic when it comes to basically everything besides freedom. Once someones freedom is hindered, or just in danger of being hindered, that's when he's all feeling and suddenly much less rational.
Just to add my two cents, Warden do not recruit only criminals, in Origin during the Cousland origin, Duncan is here to check on an officer of the Tiern's army, but if you are to recruit for what is mostly a postponed death sentence, there are two kind of people who would be the first to join, those who see this as a calling and those who have nothing more to loose.
If you want to know how a military organization can work with such recruits you could compare the Warden with the real life French Foreign Legion in this respect, especially the 19th century early 20th century Legion, no matter where you came from or your past(with some exception of course) the Legion would welcome you, give you food shelter and a reason to live (and die for). And like the Warden the Legion was (and still his) always in the thick of it and manage some very impressive feats military wise regardless of the origins of its member.
If you want to know how a military organization can work with such recruits you could compare the Warden with the real life French Foreign Legion in this respect, especially the 19th century early 20th century Legion, no matter where you came from or your past(with some exception of course) the Legion would welcome you, give you food shelter and a reason to live (and die for). And like the Warden the Legion was (and still his) always in the thick of it and manage some very impressive feats military wise regardless of the origins of its member.
Especially when you consider that up until a few decades ago, "Army or Jail?" was sometimes offered by Judges as an alternative to a prison sentence, as both a means to gain soldiers and reduce prison overcrowding.
Yeah: the Wardens' power base in the Anderfels is very easy to explain. (And makes their parochialism about political involvement in Ferelden embarrassingly hypocritical.) Southern Thedas, not so much.
Which is why I'm willing to believe that they serve other functions between Blights, either selling good from their holdings like minerals or perhaps renting out land to farm, serving as mercenaries/bodyguards (I imagine they have to in the Anderfells given its overrun with darkspawn)
I doubt they took over banking like say the Knights Templar because we don't really have a lot of information on how banking works in Thedas, but I suppose it is possible
Which is why I'm willing to believe that they serve other functions between Blights, either selling good from their holdings like minerals or perhaps renting out land to farm, serving as mercenaries/bodyguards (I imagine they have to in the Anderfells given its overrun with darkspawn)
I doubt they took over banking like say the Knights Templar because we don't really have a lot of information on how banking works in Thedas, but I suppose it is possible
Yeah, I don't think banking would suit the Wardens because it's hard to remain an apolitical, non-government organisation if you're also acting as an international bunch of money lenders and bailiffs on the side, kicking down the doors of those pesky lords and kings who didn't pay up on time?
Yeah, I don't think banking would suit the Wardens because it's hard to remain an apolitical, non-government organisation if you're also acting as an international bunch of money lenders and bailiffs on the side, kicking down the doors of those pesky lords and kings who didn't pay up on time?
well we know the idea of "Warden neutrality" is mostly a farce, they control most of the Anderfells, lands in Ferelden, they backed a rebellion in Ferelden, etc..
I've always wondered about that, how come the Wardens weren't allowed back into Ferelden during the Orlesian occupation? Technically, it was part of the Empire of Orlais at that point, where they have free reign... so surely that would have overruled the exile?
I suppose the Wardens just decided that Ferelden was a backwater enough that it wasn't work bother quibbling over semantics and saw an opportunity to get in good with the Ferelden leadership-in-exile by backing them, in the hopes that they could rescind the exile if they won the Rebellion?
With regards to funding, it is mentioned in the lore how the Wardens have rights to tithes given by their host nations, so that's probably one of their major sources of support. In all likelihood, it's probably not all that much; a chapter of Wardens could probably function effectively for a year on what any given noble of Orlais or Kirkwall spends in a fortnight partying, so I doubt it's anything ruinous.
Take a look at some of the Wardens (or conscripted Wardens) we've seen thus far;
Origins:
Duncan: Former thief, accidental murderer.
Daveth: Pickpocket and thief.
Surana/Amell: Possible accomplice to blood mage.
Brosca: Carta thug.
Aeducan: Possibly guilty of fratricide, arranging murder of political rivals, slaying of heir to House Dace in Proving.
Mahariel: Possibly guilty of murdering up to three unarmed humans.
Tabris: Murder spree through Arl of Denerim's estate, and possible murder of Bann Vaughn.
Loghain: Guilty of Regicide via desertion. Complicit in attempted assassination of Arl Eamon, Warden and Alistair. Sold citizens into Slavery.
Awakening.
Anders: Serial Escapee from Circle.
Velanna: Vigilante and murderer of human caravans.
Nathaniel: Attempted assassin of the Warden-Commander.
Sigrun: Former Carta Thug from Legion of the Dead.
Oghren: Alcoholic, disgraced member of the Warrior Caste.
Hardly the most reputable bunch, if we're being honest?
Wow...way to paint the facts out of context. Not up to your usual standard.
1st, 5 of your examples are actually only one, because only one of them would actually become a warden, and many of them had extenuating circumstances that could, depending how they are played mean they are not truly criminals. The origins stories are also intended to have drama, so of course you have more extreme circumstances.
this is still an extremely small sample size, and we have no way to accurately extrapolate that to the Order as a whole.
Wow...way to paint the facts out of context. Not up to your usual standard.
1st, 5 of your examples are actually only one, because only one of them would actually become a warden, and many of them had extenuating circumstances that could, depending how they are played mean they are not truly criminals. The origins stories are also intended to have drama, so of course you have more extreme circumstances.
Only one of the Origins ends up happening, but all of them were valid recruitment candidates who would have been recruited had Duncan been there, and so all of them can stand as valid examples. They're as valid as any optional-recruitment character is- and more to the point, they are all demonstrative of 'the sort' and 'why' Wardens can come from any social class or origin.
'Must have drama' doesn't mean 'must have criminals.' What a good number of criminal recruitment origins represents isn't 'drama,' but 'the Wardens are comfortable taking in criminals.'
this is still an extremely small sample size, and we have no way to accurately extrapolate that to the Order as a whole.
If fiction were statistically accurate, that argument would have more weight- but fiction isn't reflective of accurate statistics. Fiction only has so many zots to go so far, and so it generally tries for representative depictions unless otherwise noted. This makes it unreliable in some respects, but also simplifies story telling demonstrations to fewer characters.
Statistically, our exposure to the Order is insignificant. Narratively, it is significant. Narratively, many (if not most) of the Warden recruitments we can see involve criminals recruited by opportunity and to bolster ranks, not morally sound elites head-hunted for being the best of the best. Not only is that what we see... but there's also not much to oppose or counter what we do see.
DAO: Toward the end of the Landsmeet, Riordan's rattles off all those who are welcome in the wardens, all are quite anti-social
DA2, I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) it was Meredith who said the Warden's were always a haven for criminals.
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