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Where did the 'Wardens = Mostly Conscripted Criminals' thing come from?


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#101
Dgyre

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Only one of the Origins ends up happening, but all of them were valid recruitment candidates who would have been recruited had Duncan been there, and so all of them can stand as valid examples. They're as valid as any optional-recruitment character is- and more to the point, they are all demonstrative of 'the sort' and 'why' Wardens can come from any social class or origin.

 

'Must have drama' doesn't mean 'must have criminals.' What a good number of criminal recruitment origins represents isn't 'drama,' but 'the Wardens are comfortable taking in criminals.'

 

If fiction were statistically accurate, that argument would have more weight- but fiction isn't reflective of accurate statistics. Fiction only has so many zots to go so far, and so it generally tries for representative depictions unless otherwise noted. This makes it unreliable in some respects, but also simplifies story telling demonstrations to fewer characters.

 

Statistically, our exposure to the Order is insignificant. Narratively, it is significant. Narratively, many (if not most) of the Warden recruitments we can see involve criminals recruited by opportunity and to bolster ranks, not morally sound elites head-hunted for being the best of the best. Not only is that what we see... but there's also not much to oppose or counter what we do see.

 

yes, but not valid toward a total number count to demonstrate a majority of criminals.

 

Increased drama increases the likelihood of criminals being involved, meaning that the sampling of Origin story wardens is necessarily typical of the Order as a whole.

 

I don't think that we see from the narrative that they focus on criminals, as there are may examples of non criminals.  Fiction only goes for representative groupings if the writers care about trying to give an accurate representation. We don't know, so I'm can't say that this is invalid, just unkown.

 

I don't get the same impression of the order at all.  They certainly don't turn away criminals, but that doesn't mean thats what they mainly are. 



#102
Dgyre

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Also, Mahariel is a criminal according to whose law? By dalish law he/she is not.  As a mage you can work with the first enchanter, so not really a criminal there.  Yes the city elf origin you are a killer, but the circumstances are pretty damn extenuating.  

 

To state these are all 'criminals', all 'bad people', is to force an evaluation from a Thedosian Human viewpoint.


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#103
Sifr

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Also, Mahariel is a criminal according to whose law? By dalish law he/she is not.  As a mage you can work with the first enchanter, so not really a criminal there.  Yes the city elf origin you are a killer, but the circumstances are pretty damn extenuating.  

 

To state these are all 'criminals', all 'bad people', is to force an evaluation from a Thedosian Human viewpoint.

 

By Dalish law, you are correct that Mahariel isn't necessarily guilty of any crime except protecting their clan, especially since letting them go or killing them still has a mob form to drive the Dalish out of the forest. Still the Keeper implies that you screwed up if you killed them instead of showing mercy, since their mob is now less one born out of fear and ignorance, and instead a lynchmob looking for retribution.

 

Furthermore, as Tamlen himself pointed out, "Fool, this is not our forest. You've wandered too close to our camp". This makes the situation a tad murkier because Tamlen fully acknowledges that he can't claim they are trespassing since the Dalish do not own that land, only that these people by chance have travelled too near a Dalish settlement, so their "crime" is born of dumb luck and not any kind of malice? And what threat could they even have posed to the Dalish, since they had no weapons whatsoever?

 

As for Amell/Surana, it's murky again because while you can work for the First Enchanter, the result remains that you did aided and abetted the escape of a Blood Mage. Presumably, they figured that once you got to the first hurdle, the door with the wards, then you'd turn back around. Instead, you ended up breaking into several other areas of the lower levels, destroying the sentinels meant to protect against intruders (which probably aren't cheap to replace), entered a storeroom filled with forbidden items, destroyed part of a wall to get into the phylactery chamber and finally, instead of trying to stop Jowan at the last minute (which assuming they'd accounted for everything else), you still allowed him to destroy his phylactery.

 

And in retrospect, Jowan now being free to poison Eamon, Connor making the deal with a demon and the dead attacking Redcliffe, not to mention the Templar who was chasing him being imprisoned and being possibly tortured and forced to go through lyrium withdrawal... all have you to indirectly thank for that? It makes Greagoir's anger and comment about the dangers of letting him loose seem a little bit more justifiable.

 

"Criminal" does not necessary mean "bad person". You can steal a loaf of bread for your starving child and still have committed a crime, but in no way does that make you a bad person as a result of doing so?

 

In Inquisition, the Cadash Inquisitor can freely admit to being a former criminal from the Carta, despite having the option to say that their job in the Carta was that of a smuggler, bribing their way into Orzammar to buy and sell valuable goods under the table, such as Lyrium. It's not as bad as some of the other options, which range from being an enforcer to a hitman, but still makes them a criminal regardless, even if they harmed no-one by their actions?


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#104
Augustei

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From the Nights Watch



#105
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Do Grey Wardens pay their troops or simply feed, house, arm, and armor them? If the latter, why would anybody join? If the former, where does the money come from?
 

Bit of a late reply but doesn't Levy Dryden say something about the Wardens getting Tithes, Stipends from the Crown and Nobility or something?
I think World of Thedas mentions it as well but is alot less specific saying something along the lines of "From all lands" in regards to them starting to recieve these things after the First Blight or something



#106
Dean_the_Young

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Also, Mahariel is a criminal according to whose law? By dalish law he/she is not. 

 

 

Who claimed Mahariel is a criminal?

 

 

As a mage you can work with the first enchanter, so not really a criminal there. 

 

You also can not be working with the first enchanter, and still be recruited all the same.

 

 

Yes the city elf origin you are a killer, but the circumstances are pretty damn extenuating.  

 

 

 

But they are not the reason Duncan recruits you.
 

 

To state these are all 'criminals', all 'bad people', is to force an evaluation from a Thedosian Human viewpoint.

 

Oh, heavens no.They can be bad people from any viewpoint.



#107
Dean_the_Young

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yes, but not valid toward a total number count to demonstrate a majority of criminals.

 

 

Sure they are. They are all real examples of people the Wardens would willingly recruit. None of them are hypotheticals.

 

 

 

Increased drama increases the likelihood of criminals being involved, meaning that the sampling of Origin story wardens is necessarily typical of the Order as a whole.

 

 

Typical in the 'most Wardens aren't PC heroic adventurers,' sure. Typical as in 'the Wardens aren't adverse to recruiting criminals,' even more so.

 

 

 

 

I don't think that we see from the narrative that they focus on criminals, as there are may examples of non criminals.  Fiction only goes for representative groupings if the writers care about trying to give an accurate representation. We don't know, so I'm can't say that this is invalid, just unkown.

 

 

Except we know what the writers have given us when depicting the Wardens. When giving us Warden origins, they gave us a good number that were criminals or potential criminals and would be recruited regardless. When giving us Wardens to recruit ourselves, they gave us a consistently large proportion of criminals. When we get to see people recruited by Wardens not at our own hands, we again see more criminals being recruited than not. When the Wardens talk about their own recruiting practices, they mention not only the highest of the high but the lowest of the low.

 

In every game we've been given by the writers, criminal recruits are a norm. The main characters to protest this are characters like Wynn and Blackwall, who (a) are hyper-idealistic romantics about the heroic wardens, and (B) not involved with them in practice.

 

 

 

I don't get the same impression of the order at all.  They certainly don't turn away criminals, but that doesn't mean thats what they mainly are. 

 

 

 

They are an amoral group that recruits heavily from criminals and has a routinely 'iffy' relationship with lawful authority.

 

It's a fair, if exagerated, charge.



#108
Dean_the_Young

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Can it, though?

Wastage in historical forces under conscription was and is stupidly high without a massive infrastructure to capture and punish deserters. The Wardens don't really have that infrastructure, and neither do the great kingdoms, unless it's 1914 in Thedas and I didn't notice. They have the 'stick' of the taint, but that's not really a stick at all any more than the fact that people are mortal is a stick. Conscripts that go through the Joining get the nightmares and the Calling either way, but they can choose how to spend their remaining decades: fighting monsters at extreme risk for basically no recompense apart from the warm happy feeling of saving the world, or trying to start a new life and do something profitable and relatively comfortable. After all, if these men are criminals, and if they're going to die anyway, why shouldn't they engage in a little recidivism?

I simply don't see where the sustaining motivation and combat motivation for Wardens in the field comes from. BioWare's got initial motivation covered nicely: help save the world, or get conscripted. Fine. Those are perfectly adequate reasons. But initial motivation isn't the whole story. There needs to be something else keeping the Wardens doing what they're doing, and modern military-historical studies on why people fight - from Bartov to Hamner - have quite clearly indicated that sentiment, while admirable, and certainly helpful, is not a sufficient explanation. Money would help a lot. Brutal, violent discipline could also help explain things. In later centuries, starting in the Second World War, giving soldiers hope for survival through victory worked wonders. But none of them is attested, and there needs to be some additional explanation for why Warden wastage isn't spectacularly high.

This is, for what it's worth, a very unfair critique coming from me. The model of initial/sustaining/combat motivation has been around since the Second World War, but has only percolated into academic historical studies relatively recently, and has only been systematically studied in the last few decades. Bartov published in the late 1980s; Hamner published about ten years ago. The conclusions have come under a fair amount of criticism from serving soldiers and veterans who emphasize sentiment, especially the "band of brothers" idea (again, not a sufficient explanation even if sentiment clearly does play a role in motivation); even if the criticisms are wrong, they are still regularly made and widely believed in among laypersons. So it's not like these things should be blindingly obvious to BioWare's writers, and failure to incorporate them is incredibly stupid. But I think it's still worth pointing out that these are problems of explanation, and the fact that they are not answered means that we probably shouldn't be too rigorous about other things like "mostly criminals".

 

I would tell you yes, it can.

 

Conscription has been a historic norm for maintaining military forces, long before national security systems and the what not were around to reliably track and reclaim deserters. For most of history, and in most places in the world today, this is true- if you really want to run away from the government/military/whoever, you can. It's just a matter of how difficult you're willing to make it for anyone else to follow, and how much they care. Even in non-conscript security forces, such as the Afghan or Iraqi security forces during the American occupations, desertion rates were nothing to sneeze at- and I'm not talking about the mass-abandonment during the ISIS expansion either.

 

The biggest obstacle to dessertion often isn't the ability of the organization to pursue- it's the willingness of the desertee to do it. The reason most desertions fail is because people go back home, or stay in the area, or otherwise make it easy to be found. On the other hand, if someone has a good support network willing to hide them, be it friends or family or tribve, pursuit is often difficult or effectively impossible. And that's on home ground- populations normally friendly to the organization.

 

What prevents desertion from normally destroying organizations isn't the difficulty of deserting (which is feasible) or the punishments for trying (which are - it's the general unwillingness of people to do so, for reasons other than 'sticks.' The biggest of which is the lack of perceived alternatives- even if a reluctant Warden wants to flee, they still have the taint, they still have the whispers, and they still have the Calling. If your name isn't Fiona, there's no alternative community to that- you either share that exclusive burden with the Wardens, are none at all.

 

That the Wardens have an international presence, and a ping-detector if they're near you? That's just an added bonus to the difficulty and the perceived lack of chances. But the real deterance to crippling desertion isn't that people can't- it's that most people don't (want to).

 

 

 

As for why the Wardens still exist as an institution- that one is easier. Because Darkspawn are still an issue, even outside of the Blights, which justifies noble and national support to Wardens even outside of crisis times. Because the Wardens have secured a power base in the Anderfels, from which they can support and subsidize Wardens elsewhere. Because the Wardens have broad social legetimacy and are generally seen as non-threatening, which maintains public support and avoids political controversy (however imperfectly). Presumably because the Wardens do a little someone extra on the side for money and influence, such as Deep Roads expeditions or clearing Darkspawn surface raids or selling/trading recovered artifacts or leveraging the connections of their higher-ranked recruits (disgraced nobility or seventh sons or relations of merchants) to their advantage.

 

And, of course, because Bioware intended them to. But that doesn't need to be the only one.


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#109
Dgyre

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"Criminal" does not necessary mean "bad person". You can steal a loaf of bread for your starving child and still have committed a crime, but in no way does that make you a bad person as a result of doing so?

 

In Inquisition, the Cadash Inquisitor can freely admit to being a former criminal from the Carta, despite having the option to say that their job in the Carta was that of a smuggler, bribing their way into Orzammar to buy and sell valuable goods under the table, such as Lyrium. It's not as bad as some of the other options, which range from being an enforcer to a hitman, but still makes them a criminal regardless, even if they harmed no-one by their actions?

 

the entire point of associating the wardens with criminals is to bolster the argument some make against the Wardens and paint them as a terrible organization, so yes those making the connection are also making the statement it does mean the wardens are full of bad people.


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#110
Dgyre

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Who claimed Mahariel is a criminal?

 

 

 

Oh, heavens no.They can be bad people from any viewpoint.

 

Sifr's list of examples listed Mahariel.

 

I think from a lot of view points most of the examples listed by Sifr are not bad people, so no, not from 'any' viewpoint.



#111
Master Warder Z_

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Sifr's list of examples listed Mahariel.


Because serial murdering is a crime in Thedas :P

#112
Dgyre

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Because serial murdering is a crime in Thedas :P

 

No, its perfectly legal.  Look at the Chantry.



#113
Aimi

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I would tell you yes, it can.
 
Conscription has been a historic norm for maintaining military forces, long before national security systems and the what not were around to reliably track and reclaim deserters. For most of history, and in most places in the world today, this is true- if you really want to run away from the government/military/whoever, you can. It's just a matter of how difficult you're willing to make it for anyone else to follow, and how much they care. Even in non-conscript security forces, such as the Afghan or Iraqi security forces during the American occupations, desertion rates were nothing to sneeze at- and I'm not talking about the mass-abandonment during the ISIS expansion either.
 
The biggest obstacle to dessertion often isn't the ability of the organization to pursue- it's the willingness of the desertee to do it. The reason most desertions fail is because people go back home, or stay in the area, or otherwise make it easy to be found. On the other hand, if someone has a good support network willing to hide them, be it friends or family or tribve, pursuit is often difficult or effectively impossible. And that's on home ground- populations normally friendly to the organization.
 
What prevents desertion from normally destroying organizations isn't the difficulty of deserting (which is feasible) or the punishments for trying (which are - it's the general unwillingness of people to do so, for reasons other than 'sticks.' The biggest of which is the lack of perceived alternatives- even if a reluctant Warden wants to flee, they still have the taint, they still have the whispers, and they still have the Calling. If your name isn't Fiona, there's no alternative community to that- you either share that exclusive burden with the Wardens, are none at all.
 
That the Wardens have an international presence, and a ping-detector if they're near you? That's just an added bonus to the difficulty and the perceived lack of chances. But the real deterance to crippling desertion isn't that people can't- it's that most people don't (want to).


None of that is particularly compelling.

Conscription actually isn't a historic norm; apart from short-term levies for specific tasks (i.e. temporary local defense against an invader) mass conscription was seen as counterproductive, harmful to the national economy, and difficult to control. You couldn't really use levied civilians in melee combat, because they wouldn't know what to do and it was fundamentally more difficult to train than the later use of firearms; levied groups would have to be those already used to the employment of weapons, such as hunters, and those aren't exactly large groups in the first place, and there were usually specific non-random legal obligations for them to do so in the first place. Organizations that employed the less-than-willing, such as the Royal Navy or the Frederician Prussian army, had to also make use of the aforementioned horrific disciplinary action in order to keep men in line. They also, y'know, paid wages. And they still suffered tremendous desertion rates. Mass Royal Navy desertion actually helped start a war once upon a time.

In fact, what Blackwall shows us in Inquisition, with the Hinterlands farmers, looks much more like the sort of "conscription" you might find in militaries before the early modern period: temporary service in a role that was militarily worthless apart from as a distraction, like the French arièrre-ban. There would be no reasonable expectation of being able to keep conscripted men in the field for any appreciable amount of time. Kingdoms simply didn't have the organization to keep track of them all, or hunt them down when they ran off.
 
Famously, this changed in 1793 with Republican France's proclamation of the levée en masse, which raised the first conscript army in world history. France, however, had begun to develop the sort of bureaucratic machinery capable of keeping most of its conscripts in line. Its troops were compensated, after a fashion. And it still fell abysmally short of its target manpower; supposedly the entire able-bodied manpower of France was subject to conscription, but in practice only about 800,000 individuals were conscripted, and of those less than half actually ended up serving for any appreciable length of time because the authorities simply couldn't keep track of everybody who deserted. It took five years to finally figure out how to take these mass armies in (the promulgation of the loi Jourdan), and several more for the vast new French state to try to manage it effectively.

Many subsequent attempts at general conscription did not do significantly better for some time. The slaveholder rebellion in the American South lacked a real bureaucracy from the start, and had to create a provost system on the fly, with the result that the entire Confederate army deserted multiple times over throughout the course of the war. Every spring, before campaigning season, rebel armies would have to almost entirely reconstitute themselves. It was an utter mess. Federal armies, which retained their military support system and modern bureaucracy, and which had a much better-run provost system, did better at retaining their troops, but still suffered severe desertion problems, along with the 'skulking' phenomenon where soldiers would hide during battles to try to take advantage of the confusion, then rejoin their units later.

Sustainable conscript armies are simply an outrageous anachronism in this context.
 
Desertion for many of these men was not nearly as impossible as you seem to be making it out. For one thing, they had a very strong alternative to fighting: they didn't want to die. And they knew that they would almost certainly not get caught if they ran. They were only rarely kept track of in civilian life, if at all, and almost never kept track of in military life. They were not psychologically and ideologically indoctrinated like modern recruits are; they were not trained to believe that they could survive if they were sufficiently skilled. They did not have a support system in place, true, but frankly neither did any of the militaries, most of which were fairly rudimentarily organized. Even the ramshackle Iraqi or Afghan states, for all their problems, possess far greater capacity to control, track, and train their soldiers than any medieval entity.

None of this means that the Wardens would not have any troops at all. Obviously they would. But it's hard for me to believe that uncompensated conscripts, many of whom were previously criminals, wouldn't leave by the scores. If, under these circumstances, the Wardens retained even a quarter of the people they originally conscripted, I would be shocked.

However, since the Warden organization is obviously sustainable, I don't think that this happens. See below.
 

As for why the Wardens still exist as an institution- that one is easier. Because Darkspawn are still an issue, even outside of the Blights, which justifies noble and national support to Wardens even outside of crisis times. Because the Wardens have secured a power base in the Anderfels, from which they can support and subsidize Wardens elsewhere. Because the Wardens have broad social legetimacy and are generally seen as non-threatening, which maintains public support and avoids political controversy (however imperfectly). Presumably because the Wardens do a little someone extra on the side for money and influence, such as Deep Roads expeditions or clearing Darkspawn surface raids or selling/trading recovered artifacts or leveraging the connections of their higher-ranked recruits (disgraced nobility or seventh sons or relations of merchants) to their advantage.
 
And, of course, because Bioware intended them to. But that doesn't need to be the only one.


Oh, come on, you know that most of that stuff isn't what I was pointing at. You're talking about reasons why people wouldn't actively try to get rid of the Wardens; I'm talking about the fact that Wardens need something to actively support them, which is another matter entirely. Their legitimacy isn't relevant, and neither is their military justification. They simply need somebody to pay for it all. There's a vast gulf between "the Wardens are nice to have around, especially when darkspawn are about, and they seem like all right people" and "here Wardens have a bunch of money to defray the operational costs of your private army".

I pointed out that the way for comparable medieval organizations, the crusading orders, to generate money enough to run was to be granted revenues by crowns, often through gaining a usufruct for certain estates. This made them political players in various kingdoms, and sometimes made them independent powers of their own (the Knights of St. John in Rhodes and Malta; the German Order in Transylvania, Prussia, and Livonia). (Now, to be fair, the military orders also needed these estates to generate things like food, which as we all know BioWare writers don't really notice and/or care about, especially in a military context. But since Thedas' economy is so highly monetized, and because harping on the food thing yet again would be trite, I'll just assume that all they need is revenue flow and go from there.) These are the exact things that the Wardens claim to be against, although it's embarrassingly easy to point out that they more or less run the Anderfels. It is a stupid tenet of the Order, and it is manifestly unreasonable, and it seemingly exists only for Riordan to tut-tut at the Hero and Alistair while tacitly approving of their actions anyway so that the Hero seems like more of a renegade because BioWare writing often fetishizes "acting like a renegade despite all evidence to the contrary".

Weisshaupt could theoretically help. But the games have repeatedly shown that Weisshaupt doesn't actually get involved in anything down south. The only assistance you see from Weisshaupt in Awakening, for instance, is Mistress Woolsey; almost all actual aid is provided by the Grey Wardens of Orlais, which just redistributes the "where is the money coming from" to Orlais instead of Ferelden while not actually solving the problem. In later sources, Weisshaupt shows that it's so completely disconnected from southern Thedas that it can lose contact with subordinate organizations for several months to a year. That is not the sort of organization that provides effective support. You'd think that maintaining communications would be a little bit easier than making payroll. So while that might solve the problem, I don't think that the games and books as written actually allow it to.

My point was that either the Grey Warden tenet of nonintervention is complete nonsense and the Wardens own estates (or estate revenues) anyway, thus giving them the regular funds that they need to actually maintain an organization, or they don't have an organization. Since they obviously do have an organization, the Wardens must possess those estates; since they obviously do not have insane desertion rates, the Wardens must possess estate revenues in sufficient quantity to actually be able to compensate their troops, and give them more of a motivation to turn into ghouls and fight monsters than just "well, somebody has to think they're saving the world".
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#114
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^ I wish BioWer read this.



#115
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I think Mahariel is listed because the player has the option of murdering three humans with Tamlen in the beginning of the origin.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, I somehow missed how it had already been discussed.



#116
Dean_the_Young

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None of that is particularly compelling.

Conscription actually isn't a historic norm; apart from short-term levies for specific tasks (i.e. temporary local defense against an invader) mass conscription was seen as counterproductive, harmful to the national economy, and difficult to control. You couldn't really use levied civilians in melee combat, because they wouldn't know what to do and it was fundamentally more difficult to train than the later use of firearms; levied groups would have to be those already used to the employment of weapons, such as hunters, and those aren't exactly large groups in the first place, and there were usually specific non-random legal obligations for them to do so in the first place. Organizations that employed the less-than-willing, such as the Royal Navy or the Frederician Prussian army, had to also make use of the aforementioned horrific disciplinary action in order to keep men in line. They also, y'know, paid wages. And they still suffered tremendous desertion rates. Mass Royal Navy desertion actually helped start a war once upon a time.

 

Eirene, I think you're making a mistake of 'couldn't really use' for 'couldn't really use well.' Lots of military forces 'aren't really used well'- in fact, I'd argue most aren't. The idea of an effective, organized, disciplined, and even professional military force is often highly disproportionate in the field... but even poorly organized, unprofessional, and difficult to control forces can shape, hold, and influence terrain and territory and set the stage for future campaigns and considerations. In modern parlance these sorts of forces are often dismissed as mere militia, but 'mere' militia and poorly trained civilians (and, in some cases, just plain armed criminals) can present major obstacles and issues to even modern militaries. Not necessarily in terms of 'can put up a fight,' but in all the considerations and factors that a bunch of loosely organized people with weapons can create by merely being there.

 

 

I won't argue about my sub-par choice of words, in which 'norm' was meant less as 'standard' and more of 'not unusual.' I don't have a better term for it, but I was also thinking of the semi-voluntary/semi-obligatory tribal militias that exist in many regions.

 

 

Skipping ahead a bit... (appreciate the post, but not really relevant to what I was trying to say)-

 

 

 


Sustainable conscript armies are simply an outrageous anachronism in this context.

 

 

The context you raise are well above what the Wardens are suggested or implied to be doing, however. I think this deserves to be noted and emphasized- the Wardens we've seen aren't maintaining a massive peacetime army for fighting constant campaigns on the scales you've mentioned. They've always been depicted as being much smaller in number and concentration- dozens in DAO, hundreds in Orlais. Adamant was basically the accumulation off all the Wardens of Southern Thedas, and that was just one major stronghold.

 

We aren't looking at hundreds of thousands of Wardens being maintained as a highly trained and disciplined force in peacetime. We aren't even looking at them in terms of being an independent army in size- and that's going to mean a different sort of net of people being caught by whatever conscription is going on.

 

 

 


Desertion for many of these men was not nearly as impossible as you seem to be making it out.

 

If I seemed to be making it out that way, I profusely apologize. I was trying to say the exact opposite- that desertion was (is) relatively easy. Most organizations generally hold together despite this so long as other conditions help- even those with varying degrees of coercion in the joining process.

 

In fact, I'm not sure what we were supposed to be disagreeing on for this point on, except areas of emphasis.

 



Oh, come on, you know that most of that stuff isn't what I was pointing at. You're talking about reasons why people wouldn't actively try to get rid of the Wardens; I'm talking about the fact that Wardens need something to actively support them, which is another matter entirely. Their legitimacy isn't relevant, and neither is their military justification. They simply need somebody to pay for it all. There's a vast gulf between "the Wardens are nice to have around, especially when darkspawn are about, and they seem like all right people" and "here Wardens have a bunch of money to defray the operational costs of your private army".

 

 

Both are quite relevant to how a military organization gets the active support to survive and sustain over time.

 

Continuing military justification (the occasional darkspawn raids on the surface, the predicted Blights) are reasons for governments to continue to give them money and privileges and other support. These is a semi-regular event, for which Wardens are specifically prepared and equipped to pursue, to justify supporting them doing so.

 

Maintaining popular support and legitimacy do help with the 'nobody tries to actively destroy them,' which is important, but they also help explain why people (commoners, nobles, public figures, etc.) will be inclined to support them and give them money and resources in their own right. Call it the legitimacy rub-off effect: by providing support to legitimate organizations, people and leaders acrue legitimacy and virtue for themselves. You see this with public charity, religiously-organized societies, and activist groups.

 

So, if I could pick my quote, it can well be 'Hey Wardens, some Darkspawn broke out of the deep roads and are ransacking my lands. Here's some gold, go plug the hole, rather than send my own forces to get sick and die.' Or 'Hey everyone, you know what I like? Wardens who save the world. I like them so much I'll prove it by giving them this sack of gold, and my unwanted child. Aren't I a good noble/person/whatever?'

 

 

My point was that either the Grey Warden tenet of nonintervention is complete nonsense and the Wardens own estates (or estate revenues) anyway, thus giving them the regular funds that they need to actually maintain an organization, or they don't have an organization. Since they obviously do have an organization, the Wardens must possess those estates; since they obviously do not have insane desertion rates, the Wardens must possess estate revenues in sufficient quantity to actually be able to compensate their troops, and give them more of a motivation to turn into ghouls and fight monsters than just "well, somebody has to think they're saving the world".

 

 

 

We already knew the Wardens were hypocritical on the political question- or at least that is was more of a stated aspiration than a constant reality.

 

But we also know that the Wardens have more to keep them together than just 'save the world.' There's 'you'll be hearing the hive-mind abomination for the rest of your shorter life, just like us,' there's 'if you leave us, those states that already caught you once will put you back on the block,' and then there's the 'oh, we'll look for you too and we have a radar for Wardens.'

 

(Though that's more about the individual soldiers than the resource support to maintain them as a force.)



#117
Sifr

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the entire point of associating the wardens with criminals is to bolster the argument some make against the Wardens and paint them as a terrible organization, so yes those making the connection are also making the statement it does mean the wardens are full of bad people.

 

Except that no-one is arguing that the Wardens are a terrible organisation filled with bad people, only that they happen to recruit criminals on occasion? By stretching the definition that "Criminals = Bad People", you're actually just enforcing the very notion you're trying to argue against?

 

Who in this thread has said that you can't be a good person and still be a criminal?

 

Sifr's list of examples listed Mahariel.

 

I think from a lot of view points most of the examples listed by Sifr are not bad people, so no, not from 'any' viewpoint.

 

Err... potentially murdering three unarmed people in cold blood is still a major crime, regardless of whether you are in Thedas or in our world?

 

Please note, a lot of my examples prefaced them with "Possibly", saying that these are the crimes they might have committed, not that they necessarily did commit depending on your choices?

 

For example, Mahariel can have let those three men go without incident and with just a warning? Aeducan might have been framed for killing Trian, spared Vollney and not challenged Lord Dace to a duel? Brosca might have let that guy skimming lyrium go?

 

Again, no-one said they were bad people, just that they might have committed something that consisted a crime, whether minor or major?



#118
Dean_the_Young

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That's without the corallary that they could all, in fact, be terrible people by any moral standard possible, and it wouldn't (didn't) matter as far as their recruitment would be.



#119
KaiserShep

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I wonder. If you took criminals and made Wardens out of them, then tied them to giant spears and fired them at the archdemon, would that effectively create an anti-archdemon missile? I mean, how different can the Warden holding the weapon be from it being tied to their backs?


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#120
Red of Rivia

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Unless some similarities, the Warden are not the Night's Watch . Although the two have criminal, in a clear, some on night watch are there for literally stealing food because was starved.



#121
Olwaye

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My point was that either the Grey Warden tenet of nonintervention is complete nonsense......

 

It could also be a way of keeping apparences and appearing less threatening to the rulers of the states they are in. When there is no Blight around more than one ruler might feel uneasy with having an "idle" armed organization, especially one that is quite popular, at their doorstep.



#122
Guest_Challenge Everything_*

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I mean some are, but by no means all are.

Rylock says, "The Wardens have ever been a haven for maleficar," which are definitely types of criminals, though she's obviously got a bias. As for cases where this is confirmed?

*depending on whether or not you recruit them

 

Criminals:

  • HoF (3 out of 6, though you could argue up to 5 out of 6)
  • Anders
  • arguably Velanna*
  • Loghain*
  • Nathaniel Howe*
  • Stroud (debatable; he was recruited in order to stop him from murdering someone and thus becoming a criminal.)
  • Sophia Drydan
  • Daveth (I realize he, among others I've listed, isn't a Warden, but he was recruited nonetheless)

 

Non-criminals:

  • Alistair
  • HoF 
  • Genevieve
  • Bregan
  • Guy
  • Fiona
  • Oghren*
  • Bethany/Carver Hawke*
  • Isseya
  • Garahel
  • Valya
  • Utha
  • Reimas and six others in order to avoid fighting in the Mage-Templar War
  • Jory
  • Mhairi

All the ones I listed are Wardens whose circumstances of being recruited were confirmed. So yeah, no evidence to point to the majority of Wardens being criminals. I would assume that the majority probably aren't criminals, but that the Wardens aren't picky and won't hesitate to recruit a criminal if they think they're capable. Not to mention that Blackwall's knowledge of the Wardens is slim to none. He might have just said that to rationalize being a Warden to himself.


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#123
Steelcan

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Several of the Origins in DA:O result in you being labeled a criminal, rightly so in some cases



#124
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Several of the Origins in DA:I result in you being labeled a criminal, rightly so in some cases

You mean DA:O?



#125
Steelcan

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You mean DA:O?

yeah sorry