130 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

Yeah... it's mostly ideological fodder. The Wardens definitely aren't adverse to conscripting criminals, but they certainly aren't primarily all that comprises them. I notice when that argument is made, it's most often in arguments trying to paint Wardens as inefficient for some reason.

[TheLastArchivist]

Dude steals an apple, is conscripted to the Order.

 

What a mad world.

[LOLandStuff]

From your closet.

[Dgyre]

Except that no-one is arguing that the Wardens are a terrible organisation filled with bad people, only that they happen to recruit criminals on occasion? By stretching the definition that "Criminals = Bad People", you're actually just enforcing the very notion you're trying to argue against?

 

Who in this thread has said that you can't be a good person and still be a criminal?

 

 

Err... potentially murdering three unarmed people in cold blood is still a major crime, regardless of whether you are in Thedas or in our world?

 

Please note, a lot of my examples prefaced them with "Possibly", saying that these are the crimes they might have committed, not that they necessarily did commit depending on your choices?

 

For example, Mahariel can have let those three men go without incident and with just a warning? Aeducan might have been framed for killing Trian, spared Vollney and not challenged Lord Dace to a duel? Brosca might have let that guy skimming lyrium go?

 

Again, no-one said they were bad people, just that they might have committed something that consisted a crime, whether minor or major?

 

Several threads have actually tried to state the Wardens are a bad organization filled with bad people.  Connecting Wardens to criminals serves no other purpose to than build an argument against them.  Think its an innocent premise all you want, but its intentionally designed to have a negative connotation and be prejudicial against the order. It is one thing to say the wardens recruit criminals, it is another to say they are composed mainly of criminals, painting them as a criminal organization that shouldn't exist.

 

actually, no murdering three unarmed people is not automatically a crime no matter where you are in Thedas.  You might state its morally wrong no matter where you are, but 'crime' only applies to things against the law.  You will find quite a few examples of killing of unarmed people that is not against the law.  The empress purging a whole alieange.  There had to be at least 3 unarmed people killed in that 'legal' noncriminal killing.  Many Dalish would argue that it wouldn't have been in cold blood.  

 

Possible choices do not demonstrate an accurate reflection of numbers.  Challenge Everything countered with their own count which I quoted below.

 

 

By stating the Wardens are made up of criminals or are a majority of criminals, yes many are in fact implying the Wardens are bad people and a bad order. If you have not seen these, I am happy for you, but I have seen at least 3 different threads devoted to proving the Wardens are a bad order that shouldn't exist.  By shifting the statement from they take criminals to they are mostly made up of criminals is an intentional choice meant to imply a negative association. 

 

So yes, people ARE saying they are bad people.

 

 

I mean some are, but by no means all are.

Duncan is one example, and then Rylock says, "The Wardens have ever been a haven for maleficar," which are definitely types of criminals. But as for cases where this is confirmed?

*depending on whether or not you recruit them

 

Criminals:

• HoF (3 out of 6, though you could argue up to 5 out of 6)
• Anders
• arguably Velanna*
• Loghain*
• Nathaniel Howe*
• Stroud (debatable; he was recruited in order to stop him from murdering someone and thus becoming a criminal.)
• Sophia Drydan
• Daveth (I realize he, among others I've listed, isn't a Warden, but he was recruited nonetheless)

 

Non-criminals:

• Alistair
• HoF 
• Genevieve
• Bregan
• Guy
• Fiona
• Oghren*
• Bethany/Carver Hawke*
• Isseya
• Garahel
• Valya
• Utha
• Reimas and six others in order to avoid fighting in the Mage-Templar War
• Jory
• Mhairi

All the ones I listed are Wardens whose circumstances of being recruited were confirmed. So yeah, no evidence to point to the majority of Wardens being criminals. I would assume that the majority probably aren't criminals, but that the Wardens aren't picky and won't hesitate to recruit a criminal if they think they're capable. Not to mention that Blackwall's knowledge of the Wardens is slim to none. He might have just said that to rationalize being a Warden to himself.

[Sifr]

 

actually, no murdering three unarmed people is not automatically a crime no matter where you are in Thedas.  You might state its morally wrong no matter where you are, but 'crime' only applies to things against the law.  You will find quite a few examples of killing of unarmed people that is not against the law.  The empress purging a whole alieange.  There had to be at least 3 unarmed people killed in that 'legal' noncriminal killing.  Many Dalish would argue that it wouldn't have been in cold blood.  

 

Except that in that case, it was against the law as both Tamlen and Marethari seem to acknowledge.

 

As I pointed out previously, Tamlen admits that they have no claim to the Forest, so they cannot argue they were defending their lands or enforcing the laws of their land. Regardless of whether the Dalish actually follow Ferelden laws or not, the execution of those three would still be recognised as a crime in Ferelden, of which they are technically subject to at this point.

 

Marethari similarly notes this by stating that they cannot stay (regardless of what happened), as any attempt to defend themselves or retaliate by say, wiping out the entire village would bring Ferelden's military might to bear against them, so they better skedaddle. The crown might be content to overlook the deaths of three people in a minor property dispute, but they would do better to leave now rather than risk more deaths and becoming wanted fugitives. Her tone and rebuke if Marethari and Tamlen did execute those three, suggests that she knows that even if they had the best intentions of defending the clan, they were still in the wrong here.

 

As for the Empress' example, it's a difficult situation because as a noble, she's naturally able to get away with a ton of things that no-one else would be allowed to do. Likewise the many purges (and other abuses) the Denerim Alienage suffered in Origins shows that these things aren't normally something people bat an eyelid at, even the crimes committed against them are abhorrent. It's technically illegal, but nobles are so corrupt in Thedas, no-one's going to stop them from blatantly violating the law if their targets are second-class citizens like elves.

 

(DA2 had another good example of this type of corruption at work, with the Magistrate's son who had murdered numerous elven children, still being protected by the law regardless of all the crimes he had committed, simply because the Magistrate felt that his reputation was more important to protect than the elves).

 

Ironically enough, if any of those Elves in the Alienage that Celene purged had been armed, because alienage law bans any elves from carrying weapons, then they could be "legally" killed by soldiers for breaking the law. It's a tough situation, either don't fight back and get murdered by the Empress breaking the law, or carry a weapon and get executed for breaking the law yourself? Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

[LilyasAvalon]

Fereldan seems rather picky about it's wardens, as opposed to Orlais, and even then, most of the possible/potential wardens are made up of people who have done arguably unsavory things (but who are still amazingly skilled/talented).

 

This isn't like Game of Thrones, where they'll just pick out a handful of unlucky buggers from a cell who don't know the pointy end to the hilt. Their people are talented and/or eager from the get-go, at least enough it sparked a Warden's attention, but most, if not all, were running from something.

 

Alistair joined to escape becoming a templar, Cousland joined to escape Howe's wrath, (an innocent) Aeducan joined to save their life after being framed, etc.

 

If you're going off Blackwall's explanation of his conscripts well...

 

Spoiler

He wasn't even really a warden, he probably knew just as much as the average person does, which is rumours.