50 réponses à ce sujet

[MikeJW]

I don't want hardened Leliana in my next playthrough but I want to let Celene die at the Winter Palace to put Gaspard on the throne. Would doing so make Leliana hardened?

[Recidiva]

No, there are only 3 things to make her not hardened.

 

Stop her from killing the agent in the beginning at Haven.  When you reach Skyhold, tell her that pulling back the scouts was a good thing and they weren't expendable.  Stop her from killing Natalie in her personal quest.

[Navasha]

Nope.   In fact, Leliana prefers Briala to rule so that needs Gaspard

[Aaleel]

If you don't stop her from killing the agent everything else is irrelevant; and you must stop her, you can't even choose the remain silent option. I thought it was kind of stupid though. A choice in hour three in the game negates your entire relationship for the subsequent fifty, sixty, seventy hours or more.

[Spooky81]

All across the board, executing spies or those acting as double agents is a standard reaction and response to such actions(and even acceptable).  Her entire personality shouldn't hang on that one decision at the beginning of the game.

[Precursor Meta]

Make sure to stop her from killing the agent in the beginning. If you tell her to kill him, every chance to soften her after that will be in vain.

[MikeJW]

Got it. I just wasn't sure about letting Celene die since thats pretty cold blooded. I also agree letting her kill the double agent shouldnt count since killing a double agent thats already killed one of yours seems common sense to me.

[Navasha]

Its not so much that "one" decision.   Leliana is already heading down that hardened path because of her actions as the Left Hand of the Divine.   Encouraging it, or even letting her continue down that course ends the same way.    You MUST intervene and show her another way if you want to restore her back to 'normal' Leliana. 

[stonerbishop]

Its not so much that "one" decision.   Leliana is already heading down that hardened path because of her actions as the Left Hand of the Divine.   Encouraging it, or even letting her continue down that course ends the same way.    You MUST intervene and show her another way if you want to restore her back to 'normal' Leliana.

True, but if you do miss that ONE decision, it doesn't matter what else you do

[Aaleel]

Its not so much that "one" decision.   Leliana is already heading down that hardened path because of her actions as the Left Hand of the Divine.   Encouraging it, or even letting her continue down that course ends the same way.    You MUST intervene and show her another way if you want to restore her back to 'normal' Leliana.

You're not even in charge yet, who are you to be telling her what to do you barely knew her or anything about her operation. She didn't even ask you, you were eavesdropping on half a conversation.

The rest of the game people approve or disapprove of what you do and it ultimately is weighed against the totality of choices and them taking their que from you. But in this case, she's a done deal from that one instance, makes no sense, your leadership means nothing from that point on in regards to her. You can convince her she's good enough to be divine, but can't change this? Made absolutely no sense.

[Tinxa]

Yes, that first decision is pretty strange, especially since you don't actually witness any it or even know who the traitor person is. You just hear half of some random conversation. When she mentioned it hours and hours later with Natalie, the first time I played I didn't even remember what she was talking about.

[Veovim]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if it's possible to avoid having that first conversation with Leliana (i.e. will it disappear once you close the breach or reach Skyhold), and if so, what would happen?

[Bigdoser]

You're not even in charge yet, who are you to be telling her what to do you barely knew her or anything about her operation. She didn't even ask you, you were eavesdropping on half a conversation.

The rest of the game people approve or disapprove of what you do and it ultimately is weighed against the totality of choices and them taking their que from you. But in this case, she's a done deal from that one instance, makes no sense, your leadership means nothing from that point on in regards to her. You can convince her she's good enough to be divine, but can't change this? Made absolutely no sense.

You are part of the inner circle since there is no leader of the inquisition then so you can give your opinion on something that the inner circle is doing. If you character feels strongly that you co worker is doing something wrong you should speak up. 

 

There is the saying that sometimes evil succeeds because good men do nothing. 

[katerinafm]

I remained silent and now she didn't even listen to me and killed that woman on her personal quest. Pretty annoying. As others said it's pretty silly that not speaking out just once cancels everything else you say to her.

[Bigdoser]

I remained silent and now she didn't even listen to me and killed that woman on her personal quest. Pretty annoying. As others said it's pretty silly that not speaking out just once cancels everything else you say to her.

Yeah because she thinks murdering people is a fine way to solve issues since you did not speak up then. Considering the topic of not murdering people to fix issues never comes up again. 

 

Plus considering solas even states if you are friends with him that her faith is damaged and made her turn it into a game of tactics. This is how I see it if you did not speak up before when you feel she is clearly doing something wrong why would she listen now? Considering its fairly evident from her very first conversation that her faith is pretty much broken and she is mentally not "that" well either. 

 

Being a spymaster for someone who is pretty much the pope in a country that considers deadly politics a "game" and having your mother figure killed would take its toll on someone. 

[ThreeF]

You're not even in charge yet, who are you to be telling her what to do you barely knew her or anything about her operation. She didn't even ask you, you were eavesdropping on half a conversation.

The rest of the game people approve or disapprove of what you do and it ultimately is weighed against the totality of choices and them taking their que from you. But in this case, she's a done deal from that one instance, makes no sense, your leadership means nothing from that point on in regards to her. You can convince her she's good enough to be divine, but can't change this? Made absolutely no sense.

 

Has nothing to do with you being in charge, has everything to do with the fact that her whole life Leliana was struggling with this particular dilemma and a little push in either direction was all she needed at the point you meet her. (the whole inner circle is a bit touched in the head, come to think of it, except maybe Josephine???)

 

(Also I'm under the impression that you don't need to do all three act in order to harden her, one act is enough.)

[MikeJW]

Yeah because she thinks murdering people is a fine way to solve issues since you did not speak up then. Considering the topic of not murdering people to fix issues never comes up again. 

 

Plus considering solas even states if you are friends with him that her faith is damaged and made her turn it into a game of tactics, its more of if you did not speak up before when you feel she is clearly doing something wrong why would she listen now?

 

Because I don't think she did anything wrong. I don't think killing a double agent is wrong, especially after he has killed one of yours. You can argue that capturing him to turn him or learn what he knows would be better but killing him is no more wrong that killing the red templars.

 

It's stupid to make this the turning point. It should be a point system where the entirety of your actions count. You have to meta-game this one because it's so counter to both common sense and gaming mechanics. I mean, if leliana had said "oh, kill his mom while your at it to send a message" I could agree with you. But it's not. It's pretty much "kill this enemy that can harm us" and the game thinks you should speak out against it? Why?

[Bullets McDeath]

Sorry to butt in but I honestly don't even remember the choice at the beginning with Leliana killing or not killing an agent. Can someone give a little more info and maybe jog my memory? I have no recollection of how I handled that scenario.

[Aaleel]

You are part of the inner circle since there is no leader of the inquisition then so you can give your opinion on something that the inner circle is doing. If you character feels strongly that you co worker is doing something wrong you should speak up. 
 
There is the saying that sometimes evil succeeds because good men do nothing.

Yeah, but they're in charge of their own troops. Once you're inquisitor, they're under your command as well as their people. What if Leliana had said what if he escapes once we catch him he has info on all my men. Is it your place to say go ahead and take that risk with your men? That was the part where I remained silent after I heard that info.

That quote doesn't even apply, it's not like you were murdering some innocent civilian. It's war, people die. People serve punishments, sometimes death. Heck, the Inquisitor was taking heads at Skyhold for war crimes.

[ThreeF]

Sorry to butt in but I honestly don't even remember the choice at the beginning with Leliana killing or not killing an agent. Can someone give a little more info and maybe jog my memory? I have no recollection of how I handled that scenario.

You eavesdrop on a conversation about how one of her agents betrayed her which resulted in death of some other agents. This happens in her tent after you talk with her about the Maker's "game". You'll see an agent running up to her and they will start an ambient conversation.

 

You have an option to not do anything, to tell her go ahead kill the traitor or to stop her from killing him.

[Bullets McDeath]

Is it possible to miss the ambient conversation? I remember the conversation about the Maker's game, but I think I went straight inside the Chantry afterwards. I don't remember there being any follow up. If so, I guess that's the same as not doing anything, so that's a hardened Leliana, yeah?

[Bigdoser]

Yeah, but they're in charge of their own troops. Once you're inquisitor, they're under your command as well as their people. What if Leliana had said what if he escapes once we catch him he has info on all my men. Is it your place to say go ahead and take that risk with your men? That was the part where I remained silent after I heard that info.

That quote doesn't even apply, it's not like you were murdering some innocent civilian. It's war, people die. People serve punishments, sometimes death. Heck, the Inquisitor was taking heads at Skyhold for war crimes.

Problem is we don't know WHY he killed her agents, we don't know what his connections were, we don't know if it was misunderstanding etc. Who knows he may have even been connected to the conclave. Considering she even says that he was one of her best and trusted I considered that rather than killing him outright we bring him in to be judged get information out of him. 

 

Once a person is dead there is nothing left of them its better to get use out of people alive than cutting their life short in my opinion since we do not understand the full situation of why he killed said agent. If I let her kill him I would be a hypocrite in getting Alexius to study time magic yes we could kill him for his crimes but he has more use alive than dead and according to Dorian he was a good man so maybe we can still salvage that. 

 

I even state to her I am sure that most of her decisions are fine but I have a problem with "that" specific decision. I feel the quote does apply IN a sense considering if you FEEL she is doing something wrong why just stand there and let her do it if you can interject? 

 

Hell you can even argue with her that killing him is a waste instead of preaching to her about ideals and such. 

[ThreeF]

Is it possible to miss the ambient conversation? I remember the conversation about the Maker's game, but I think I went straight inside the Chantry afterwards. I don't remember there being any follow up. If so, I guess that's the same as not doing anything, so that's a hardened Leliana, yeah?

 

From my tests, as long as Haven exists, the agent will continue running up to her and initiating the conversation until you do something about it. The only reason to miss it would be talking to Leliana only once (or not at all) and not approaching her at all after that.

[Wulfram]

It would make more sense if letting Celene die hardened her than the current system.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

We are given less influence over the NPC's personalities in this game. Which is t nessicarilly bad or good. Just a decision they made.

It makes sense to me, actually. In origins Leli was in a vulnerable position. She left the cloister. And before that she left the Bards under very trying circumstances. It makes sense that she'd be so susceptible to influence.

In DAI she's very set in her ways. I wouldn't say there is a 'true' Lelianna. Lelianna is a tough cookie in DAI regardless. But I like that you have a small chance to reign her in a bit.