50 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

Problem is we don't know WHY he killed her agents, we don't know what his connections were, we don't know if it was misunderstanding etc. Who knows he may have even been connected to the conclave. Considering she even says that he was one of her best and trusted I considered that rather than killing him outright we bring him in to be judged get information out of him. 
 
Once a person is dead there is nothing left of them its better to get use out of people alive than cutting their life short in my opinion since we do not understand the full situation of why he killed said agent. If I let her kill him I would be a hypocrite in getting Alexius to study time magic yes we could kill him for his crimes but he has more use alive than dead and according to Dorian he was a good man so maybe we can still salvage that. 
 
I even state to her I am sure that most of her decisions are fine but I have a problem with "that" specific decision.

Which is exactly why you have no business giving a an opinion without knowing or finding out the facts. That's my point, to have the entire thing depend on a moment where you didn't have enough info to make an informed decision is stupid. They don't even have the conversation play out where you can gather the facts to make an informed decision. All I know is that he killed her men, and has information that could allow him to kill more. How can I justify saying go ahead and leave him alive putting your men at risk.

[Bullets McDeath]

 

Three F

 

I'll have to find the clip on Youtube or something... I'm drawing a total blank. I mostly play late at night after work and after my kids are asleep and the house is picked up and I'm exhausted and brain dead. I don't remember it at all. It might actually be possible I only talked to her that one time... man, weird.
 

[Bigdoser]

Which is exactly why you have no business giving a an opinion without knowing or finding out the facts. That's my point, to have the entire thing depend on a moment where you didn't have enough info to make an informed decision is stupid. They don't even have the conversation play out where you can gather the facts to make an informed decision. All I know is that he killed her men, and has information that could allow him to kill more. How can I justify saying go ahead and leave him alive putting your men at risk.

 

Well I personally feel she just cares that he betrayed her and and wants him dead. Through out the game Leliana thinks that killing people solves problems my character disagree's with that so I hopped into the conversation.

 

As my character being a part of the inner circle I felt that I also had some right in voicing my opinion on her decision hell in Haven they argue all the time over their decisions at the table. 

[MikeJW]

Well I personally feel she just cares that he betrayed her and and wants him dead. Through out the game Leliana thinks that killing people solves problems my character disagree's with that so I hopped into the conversation.

 

As my character being a part of the inner circle I felt that I also had some right in voicing my opinion on her decision hell in Haven they argue all the time over their decisions at the table. 

 

I never got that impression. I got the impression she is wishes she wasn't forced into killing him. You say "through out the game Leliana..." but that's not true at that point. That's knowledge from other play throughs. She didn't try to kill you when you was a prisoner.

 

I can agree that you may have had the right to voice your opinion but in my opinion with the evidence we're presented in game makes killing him a righteous decision. I have to go against my better judgment to keep Leliana from killing him if I don't want scary crazy Leliana later.

[Aaleel]

Well I personally feel she just cares that he betrayed her and and wants him dead. Through out the game Leliana thinks that killing people solves problems my character disagree's with that so I hopped into the conversation.
 
As my character being a part of the inner circle I felt that I also had some right in voicing my opinion on her decision hell in Haven they argue all the time over their decisions at the table.

So if he escapes and decimates her spies. If this happens not only have you caused the death of people you didn't even know but she did closely. But you've damaged your ability to collect intelligence in the larger world saving goal. Not only did you not have enough info to decide, there was way too much grey area, to make this an 'evil' decision on her part.

[ThreeF]

I'll have to find the clip on Youtube or something... I'm drawing a total blank. I mostly play late at night after work and after my kids are asleep and the house is picked up and I'm exhausted and brain dead. I don't remember it at all. It might actually be possible I only talked to her that one time... man, weird.
 

Yeah you absolutely must talk to everyone with a periodic consistency. I always do a run after visiting Haven or Skyhold and talk to all talk-able NPC. Aside from occasional quest, you learn quite many things about the characters and the things around you.

[Bigdoser]

Well at the end of the day I don't really have a problem with the harden or unharden leliana arc. 

[ThreeF]

I can agree that you may have had the right to voice your opinion but in my opinion with the evidence we're presented in game makes killing him a righteous decision. I have to go against my better judgment to keep Leliana from killing him if I don't want scary crazy Leliana later.

You can always opt for "don't kill him for information"

 

Thing is this action doesn't define only Leliana, it defines the IQ too.

 

The way I saw it was that I was not given enough evidence from the conversation that would make it a necessity to kill him. So the question "are you gong to kill him just like that" was very reasonable for me to make. I simply wanted more info. But after she said that she might not like doing it but must it was very clear to me that I should stop her.

 

You have this same thing happening to Cullen and to IB and you also get one chance there.

[Bigdoser]

You can always opt for "don't kill him for information"

 

Thing is this action doesn't define only Leliana, it defines the IQ too.

 

The way I saw it was that I was not given enough evidence from the conversation that would make it a necessity to kill him. So the question "are you gong to kill him just like that" was very reasonable for me to make. I simply wanted more info. But after she said that she might not like doing it but must it was very clear to me that I should stop her.

 

You have this same thing happening to Cullen and to IB and you also get one chance there.

Exactly you can preach to her or be pragmatic in saying that he is more useful alive than murdering him. 

[MikeJW]

You can always opt for "don't kill him for information"

 

Thing is this action doesn't define only Leliana, it defines the IQ too.

 

The way I saw it was that I was not given enough evidence from the conversation that would make it a necessity to kill him. So the question "are you gong to kill him just like that" was very reasonable for me to make. I simply wanted more info. But after she said that she might not like doing it but must it was very clear to me that I should stop her.

 

You have this same thing happening to Cullen and to IB and you also get one chance there.

 

Yeah and thats what I opt for but you only get that after you object. The way the scene plays out there is nothing to make me doubt that he deserves to die if Leliana says he needs to. Just before this I had talked to Varric and he made it clear that Leliana is a great spy master so theres no reason for me at this time to doubt her.

[Bullets McDeath]

Yeah, so I just watched the scene on Youtube and unless I blacked out drunk (always a possibility), I never triggered that conversation. I wonder what that means for me going forward...

[The Loyal Nub]

True, but if you do miss that ONE decision, it doesn't matter what else you do

 

I did tell her to spare the traitor but I also told her "war demands sacrifice" and she threw that back in my face after she killed the cleric later in the game. So it's not just sparing the traitor. You must do that but you must under no circumstances tell her that "war demands sacrifice." 

[ThreeF]

Yeah and thats what I opt for but you only get that after you object. The way the scene plays out there is nothing to make me doubt that he deserves to die if Leliana says he needs to. Just before this I had talked to Varric and he made it clear that Leliana is a great spy master so theres no reason for me at this time to doubt her.

I dunno, i'm always very wary when I'm given an option to kill or not to kill someone in games.

 

 

Yeah, so I just watched the scene on Youtube and unless I blacked out drunk (always a possibility), I never triggered that conversation. I wonder what that means for me going forward...

Probably a very bloody future. BUT you can avoid it by not making her a divine if you are not ok with it.

 

 

I did tell her to spare the traitor but I also told her "war demands sacrifice" and she threw that back in my face after she killed the cleric later in the game. So it's not just sparing the traitor. You must do that but you must under no circumstances tell her that "war demands sacrifice." 

Yeah it's not all three actions, one out of three is enough.

[Bigdoser]

Yeah had some people telling me that starts throwing what you say in previous conversations  back in your face if you failed to unharden her 

[sch1986]

Got it. I just wasn't sure about letting Celene die since thats pretty cold blooded. I also agree letting her kill the double agent shouldnt count since killing a double agent thats already killed one of yours seems common sense to me.

I don't think it's cold blooded. Celene isn't exactly a saint. Although I'm reasonably sure neither are either of the other options. That's why I like them all ruling together. Always living in fear, looking over their shoulders, and working for the Inquisitor.

To answer your question: this is not one of the things that hardens Leliana.

[katerinafm]

Yeah because she thinks murdering people is a fine way to solve issues since you did not speak up then. Considering the topic of not murdering people to fix issues never comes up again. 

 

 

There are two points where you try to soften Leliana after that, so since apparently the first time matters SO much, it's surprising that the two other times don't matter in the end.

[ThreeF]

There are two points where you try to soften Leliana after that, so since apparently the first time matters SO much, it's surprising that the two other times don't matter in the end.

I think it's not that they don't matter, the way it works is that you have to pick three "soft" options to soften her, but you need to pick only one "hard" to harden her, any of the three will do, you can choose "soft" for the first one, but if you choose even one "hard" you are done. You don't negate one hard with one soft. That's not how it works.

[Aaleel]

There are two points where you try to soften Leliana after that, so since apparently the first time matters SO much, it's surprising that the two other times don't matter in the end.

That's my problem with it. It's basically saying one moment early on in Haven is so irreversible that no matter what you say or how you conduct you Inquisition it has no affect on the people following you. Which is just bad all around for so many reasons.

That would be like someone disapproving something you did early so they disapprove of you in general after that regardless of what you do. Or some conversation about Templars and Lyrium early in the game deciding whether or not Cullen gets off it or not.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

 

^The second conversation with Leliana at Haven is the 1st of 3 conversations throughout the game you'll have with her and probably the most crucial.

 

The 2nd conversation is at Skyhold when you tell her it's okay she pulled her men back in light of the situation with Corypheus, and that our soldiers are not expendable.

 

The 3rd is telling her not to kill the sister in her personal quest.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

That's my problem with it. It's basically saying one moment early on in Haven is so irreversible that no matter what you say or how you conduct you Inquisition it has no affect on the people following you. Which is just bad all around for so many reasons.

That would be like someone disapproving something you did early so they disapprove of you in general after that regardless of what you do. Or some conversation about Templars and Lyrium early in the game deciding whether or not Cullen gets off it or not.

That's sorta how life works though. People are not logical or agreeable as a rule. And your first couple interactions with a person has a huge impact on how they treat you.

Often you really do only have 'one chance' to change someone.

Origins was not very realistic in that regard. Sten and Alistair and Leli and Morigan are ALL very susceptible to influence over the course of the game. And that strains credibility for me, a little. I mean it is just a game, and one geared toward making you feel powerful, but you shouldn't be able to alter people so much just by talking to them.

[Aaleel]

That's sorta how life works though. People are not logical or agreeable as a rule. And your first couple interactions with a person has a huge impact on how they treat you.
Often you really do only have 'one chance' to change someone.
Origins was not very realistic in that regard. Sten and Alistair and Leli and Morigan are ALL very susceptible to influence over the course of the game. And that strains credibility for me, a little. I mean it is just a game, and one geared toward making you feel powerful, but you shouldn't be able to alter people so much just by talking to them.

But that's what you're doing in the three conversations in the game, which is it. Either you can affect them or you can't. The game is basically saying you word carries more weight when she doesn't know you than it does when she knows you better and you're more in her trust. You butt into a conversation and your opinion carries more weight than when she actually asks for it like in the second conversation? The way the game handled it makes no sense whatsoever.

[Aaleel]

One thing I've also noticed is that when the dialogue wheel flashes orange it's an important decision. Didn't really notice it until my second Playthrough.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

But that's what you're doing in the three conversations in the game, which is it. Either you can affect them or you can't. The game is basically saying you word carries more weight when she doesn't know you than it does when she knows you better and you're more in her trust. You butt into a conversation and your opinion carries more weight than when she actually asks for it like in the second conversation? The way the game handled it makes no sense whatsoever.

It's not an 'either or' thing for me. And I actually think it makes perfect sense that the further in the game she is the less you have an effect on her 'use of force.' Because that is what it comes down to.

Earlier in the game she is used to doing things a certain way (having been the Left Hand) but the loss of Justinia shook her up. She was searching for guidance and relied heavily on the others in the in we circle.

But once the War really gets into the later stages, well, she's already spent so much time justifying all the murder and torture she has put people through. Having told herself it was nessicarilly and right. A couple words from the inquisitor are easily brushed aside.

But if you stopped her at that one moment and was there to guide her through her doubt AGAIN after Haven it makes sense that you'd be able to stop her on her personal quest.

It SHOULD be difficult. This isn't like Cullen's drug problem, where he wants you to make a decision for him. Leli can be a vulnerable and open person when she wants to be. But I wouldn't expect somebody who was told to be the 'Dick Cheyney of Dragon Age' to accept that maybe she didn't need to put people through all that misery EVER if at all.

The fact that it's possible is neat but it shouldn't be easy.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

One thing I've also noticed is that when the dialogue wheel flashes orange it's an important decision. Didn't really notice it until my second Playthrough.

Me either. But I do now lol

[Aaleel]

It's not an 'either or' thing for me. And I actually think it makes perfect sense that the further in the game she is the less you have an effect on her 'use of force.' Because that is what it comes down to.
Earlier in the game she is used to doing things a certain way (having been the Left Hand) but the loss of Justinia shook her up. She was searching for guidance and relied heavily on the others in the in we circle.
But once the War really gets into the later stages, well, she's already spent so much time justifying all the murder and torture she has put people through. Having told herself it was nessicarilly and right. A couple words from the inquisitor are easily brushed aside.
But if you stopped her at that one moment and was there to guide her through her doubt AGAIN after Haven it makes sense that you'd be able to stop her on her personal quest.
It SHOULD be difficult. This isn't like Cullen's drug problem, where he wants you to make a decision for him. Leli can be a vulnerable and open person when she wants to be. But I wouldn't expect somebody who was told to be the 'Dick Cheyney of Dragon Age' to accept that maybe she didn't need to put people through all that misery EVER if at all.
The fact that it's possible is neat but it shouldn't be easy.

But the next conversation you have it right after Haven, not the war in full stage. More importantly she actually asks for your opinion, she's vulnerable and looking to you, but then ignores your opinion. No way anyone is going to put that in any context that it makes sense to me.

Unrelated she asked I f the Maker can't step in and save the best of his servants what good is he. It would be like your words there decide whether or not she ultimately loses her faith or not, even though you're in her confidence and she asks your opinion later on,