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[EmissaryofLies]

 

No one's training shamans how to use their powers. Do a little research into that. 

I meant mages we actually interact with. The Keeper stands there and does nothing, so sure. Every other mage who actually does something is either summoning demons, warping mundanes, warping spirits into demons, or selling people into slavery. And no, mundanes don't have more freedom in Tevinter. Besides leaving Towers, mages have more freedom than almost anyone else in Thedas, and even then, that hurtle can be jumped. 

 

And what's that supposed to mean? Not every mage needs a circle, and they actually respect magic and by all appearances live peacefully.

 

Just like every other mundane, not every other mage is suitable to rule.

 

Mundanes in Tevinter can become merchants, own property, and serve in the military, and if a mage is born to them they advance in social status. Southern mages are not even allowed freedom of movement without Templar/Enchanter say so. They do not get to own property (except in very rare circumstances), they do not even own their blood thanks to phylacteries, and they have to get permission to go die in a war(most do not unless the Chantry is really desperate). This according to in game evidence and the testimony of many a mage versus the word of a Machiavellian loyalist who opened her legs to achieve her station...Vivienne.

[EmissaryofLies]

There is absolutely no need for sacrífices in order for society to biasedly steered or for independence to be taken.

One of foremost characteristics of Independence is the right to be ruled by members of your own group. How can normals be independent from mages if they are governed by them?

 

Ironically, independence and representations are precisely what the mages and Briala fight for in DAI.

 

Life is a cycle of conflict. It is just the way it is. And I don't even see how mages ruling normals is, somehow, supposed to be an alternative rather than simply a reversal of fortunes.

 

Why exactly does a mage in charge have to be a bad thing for mundanes?

[Steelcan]

Why exactly does a mage in charge have to be a bad thing for mundanes?

they aren't inherently worse than a mundane, but the potential for damage they can inflict far outstrips a mundane ruler

[Boost32]

they aren't inherently worse than a mundane, but the potential for damage they can inflict far outstrips a mundane ruler

Like unleashing the Blight into the world.

[MisterJB]

Why exactly does a mage in charge have to be a bad thing for mundanes?

For a great numbers of reasons.
For exemple, it removes their Independence as surely as if the Dales had been lead by human. I can't overstate this fact.

Normal people have a right to their own nations, ruled by normal people.

 

 

And then, societal bias also plays a part in keeping people safe. For instance, compare the security measures in Ferelden to those in Rivain.

In Ferelden, mages are isolated from population centres, taught to control their powers, watched over by anti-magic soldiers, hunted if they leave without authorization, etc.

In Rivain, mages can go anywhere, do anything and if na Abominations kills dozens, it is seen in the same manner as a natural disaster. Do you revolt against an earthquake? Demand a tidal wave take responsability for its actions?

 

Now, which nation do you believe keeps its normal citizens more protected?

And which nation is ruled by mages?

 

Also, Corypheus. Just, Corypheus.

[Eliastion]

(...)

 

Mundanes in Tevinter can become merchants, own property, and serve in the military, and if a mage is born to them they advance in social status. Southern mages are not even allowed freedom of movement without Templar/Enchanter say so. They do not get to own property (except in very rare circumstances), they do not even own their blood thanks to phylacteries, and they have to get permission to go die in a war(most do not unless the Chantry is really desperate). This according to in game evidence and the testimony of many a mage versus the word of a Machiavellian loyalist who opened her legs to achieve her station...Vivienne.

You forgot that mages in southern Thedas are also denied family - they're taken from home, all communication severed (this can be to some extent circumvented but that's against the intention of the system) and if they have a child, it is taken from them immidiately after birth and its whereabouts concealed from the parent. That's, in fact, more severe than what most slaves in tevinter suffer.

[EmissaryofLies]

@MisterJB

 

So you would be for the Isolationist train of thought rather than sub a mage in for a normally mundane run society? 

[Steelcan]

You forgot that mages in southern Thedas are also denied family - they're taken from home, all communication severed (this can be to some extent circumvented but that's against the intention of the system) and if they have a child, it is taken from them immidiately after birth and its whereabouts concealed from the parent. That's, in fact, more severe than what most slaves in tevinter suffer.

No they aren't, parents are allowed to visit the Circle and in some cases mages are allowed to leave to go home, do try harder to make stuff up next time

[EmissaryofLies]

No they aren't, parents are allowed to visit the Circle and in some cases mages are allowed to leave to go home, do try harder to make stuff up next time

 

In some circles they are.

[Hellion Rex]

 

In Rivain, mages can go anywhere, do anything and if na Abominations kills dozens, it is seen in the same manner as a natural disaster. Do you revolt against an earthquake? Demand a tidal wave take responsability for its actions?

I don't think we really have enough about Rivain's abomination levels to make any accurate conclusions about what happens there.

[MisterJB]

@MisterJB

 

So you would be for the Isolationist train of thought rather than sub a mage in for a normally mundane run society? 

Isolationism doesn't work because mages can be randomly born to normal couples.

Besides, I wouldn't trust the mages to remain isolated.

In the future, their numbers would grow and they would interfere with other nation as their resources grow scarce.

[MisterJB]

I don't think we really have enough about Rivain's abomination levels to make any accurate conclusions about what happens there.

We don't know enough about Rivain, true. But the number of Abominations does not affect the implications of treating them as if they are natural disasters.

[Br3admax]

In some circles they are.

It's supposed to be common practice. You can blame improper supervision all you like. Don't blame it on the Circle system itself. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Isolationism doesn't work because mages can be randomly born to normal couples.

Besides, I wouldn't trust the mages to remain isolated.

In the future, their numbers would grow and they would interfere with other nation as their resources grow scarce.

 

You would not trust......

 

The mages would interfere rather than trade or negotiate....

 

I better understand why to you and others, it has to end badly for the mundanes in a mage ruled society.

[Eliastion]

For a great numbers of reasons.
For exemple, it removes their Independence as surely as if the Dales had been lead by human. I can't overstate this fact.
Normal people have a right to their own nations, ruled by normal people.

 Existance of nobility removes independence of non-nobility - anything other than democracy divides society into rulers and those that will never rule, and even democracy removes this only in theory.
 

And then, societal bias also plays a part in keeping people safe. For instance, compare the security measures in Ferelden to those in Rivain.
In Ferelden, mages are isolated from population centres, taught to control their powers, watched over by anti-magic soldiers, hunted if they leave without authorization, etc.
In Rivain, mages can go anywhere, do anything and if na Abominations kills dozens, it is seen in the same manner as a natural disaster. Do you revolt against an earthquake? Demand a tidal wave take responsability for its actions?
 
Now, which nation do you believe keeps its normal citizens more protected?
And which nation is ruled by mages?
 
Also, Corypheus. Just, Corypheus.

Leadership isn't dangerous due to personal power - it's dangerous because of what it leads. Tevinter didn't conquer Thedas because of powerful mages that led them - it was their very mundane soldiers that actually did most of the conquering, with some magical support. Then there is Calehand who united Ferelden - and guess what, he also employed magical support. There is power in both steel and magic and whoever actually rules doesn't change the fact that both are being used. And it makes little difference whether people die to an abomination or to mad noble who orders cleansing of a village who he believes rebellious.

I don't say that Rivain has it right, or that demon possession is not a very real risk. But locking mages in towers and creating extensive slavery system is no solution - especially since it doesn't work: you still get apostates, often desperate ones, with little to no training (since there is hardly anyone they can go for training to without risking capture), vulnerable to possession. Connor Guerrin is a perfect example of danger that the old, flawed system actually created, since without the system his mother would just hire a proper tutor for him. Or send him to some magical academy - but there were no magical academies, there were only slave camps and mothers tend to be reluctant about selling their children to slavery...

[EmissaryofLies]

It's supposed to be common practice. You can blame improper supervision all you like. Don't blame it on the Circle system itself. 

 

The system only works as well as the men and women running it.

[Eliastion]

In some circles they are.

That was the Rivain Circle. It got annuled for that.

[Steelcan]

That was the Rivain Circle. It got annuled for that.

and in Ostwick, Trevelyan can say they went home for extended periods of time

 

Rivain has their whole deal with abominations so mages being less strictly observed there is more concerning than in other places

[actionhero112]

It's safer for the majority of thedas to have mages isolated and watched over by templars. Considering that possession is a very real threat, and blood magic seems to be everywhere, I don't see the point of letting the mages have freedom.

 

I'll compromise, if a century goes by and there isn't an abomination crazed outbreak, we'll do a trial period. 

It's all very poetic and noble, giving mages freedom, but that noble fairness means nothing to the children of those slaughtered by abominations or enslaved by blood magic. 

[MisterJB]

The slave camps where they live in luxurious accomodations (hell, Orlais' White Spire was housed in Emperor Drakon's former palace), receive education unlike the majority of Thedas, are clothed, fed and not required to do anything beyond study and remain in there.

Let us be done with the claim that it is slavery. It's not slavery, they are not treated like objects, they have rights and freedoms and thus it's not slavery. Even David Gaider himself has said it is not slavery.

[EmissaryofLies]

It's safer for the majority of thedas to have mages isolated and watched over by templars. Considering that possession is a very real threat, and blood magic seems to be everywhere, I don't see the point of letting the mages have freedom.

 

I'll compromise, if a century goes by and there isn't an abomination crazed outbreak, we'll do a trial period. 

It's all very poetic and noble, giving mages freedom, but that noble fairness means nothing to the children of those slaughtered by abominations or enslaved by blood magic. 

 

 

And this is exactly why you and everyone of this mindset will get another Tevinter in the South. 

[MisterJB]

That was the Rivain Circle. It got annuled for that.

The fact that the entire female population of that Circle was possessed and ruling over normal people probably had something to do with that Annulment.

Just a guess.

[MisterJB]

And this is exactly why you and everyone of this mindset will get another Tevinter in the South. 

 

I absolutely despise this naive notion that all we have to do is give out friendship and love and we will be returned in kind when it is far more likely people will just take advantage of you. Would you invite a complete stranger armed with a weapon into your home?
 

It is important to not unnecessarily antagonize mages but it is even more important to have a system in place that prevents them from harming people, regardless if they wish to or not. Offer one hand but arm the other.
 

[Hellion Rex]

The fact that the entire female population of that Circle was possessed and ruling over normal people probably had something to do with that Annulment.

Just a guess.

False. You don't know the numbers that were training under the Seers. You have no evidence to the actual amounts that were even possessed.

[EmissaryofLies]

I absolutely despise this naive notion that all we have to do is give out friendship and love and we will be returned in kind when it is far more likely people will just take advantage of you. Would you invite a complete stranger armed with a weapon into your home?
 

It is important to not unnecessarily antagonize mages but it is even more important to have a system in place that prevents them from harming people, regardless if they wish to or not. Offer one hand but arm the other.
 

 

That's never been my message. You said it yourself, "not unnecessarily antagonize" mages. Besides we've tried it the foot to throat way and what has that yielded? Rebellions, Resolutionists and blown up Chantries. It was good for the mundanes for a very long time and now it's time for something else.

 

And the South has just barely offered that hand in the form of Vivienne's Divinity. What happens from here is anyone's game, but I bet it's better than locking them away and feeding their resentment, creating more of the abominations that mundanes fear.