False. You don't know the numbers that were training under the Seers. You have no evidence to the actual amounts that were even possessed.
To be a Seer is to be possessed.
Let us say that you are right and it wasn't the entire female population. We're still faced with a Circle where the First Enchanter sanctions the deliberate possession of a percentage of its population.
Still worthy of an Annulment.
To be a Seer is to be possessed.
Let us say that you are right and it wasn't the entire female population. We're still faced with a Circle where the First Enchanter sanctions the deliberate possession of a percentage of its population.
Still worthy of an Annulment.
Bigger question though - how the hell did the Dairsmuid Grand Cleric not notice? Why did it take Seekers from Ayesleigh to figure it out?
That's never been my message. You said it yourself, "not unnecessarily antagonize" mages. Besides we've tried it the foot to throat way and what has that yielded? Rebellions, Resolutionists and blown up Chantries. It was good for the mundanes for a very long time and now it's time for something else.
And the South has just barely offered that hand in the form of Vivienne's Divinity. What happens from here is anyone's game, but I bet it's better than locking them away and feeding their resentment, creating more of the abominations that mundanes fear.
And why should it be time for something else? The Circles produced one rebellion in a thousand years of peace where non-magical society flourished. Why not another thousands years just like it? This rebellion requires Ferelden's monarchy and the Inquisition and an extremely pro-mage Divine in order to be successful. Otherwise, they are crushed.
If future rebellions prove just as effective, there is no reason to remove the Circle at all.
As for the claim the Circles are the ones creating Abominations, the logic is faulty.
Let us say that the Circle does breed resentment in a certain portion of the mage population. Let us also say concealing mages such as Connor leads to Abominations.
However, there are other factors to take into account.
For instance, fear beats resentment. This last vote only succeeded in dissolving the Circle because the mages were afraid of what the Templars would do if they surrendered.
Let the few resent and lash out. Most mages will be too afraid of the Templars and more common soldiers to do anything of the like.
Finally, the if 1 mage in 10 is concealed from the Circle and becomes an Abomination, that is still preferable than 10 out of 10 mages being amidst the normal population with nothing but training and their morals preventing a massacre.
Bigger question though - how the hell did the Dairsmuid Grand Cleric not notice? Why did it take Seekers from Ayesleigh to figure it out?
It's strange. Compromise keeps Rivain together but It is one thing for the Andrastian monarchy to ignore traditional Rivain communities and their Seers to keep national cohesion and another thing entirely for them, who are supposedly Andrastian, allowing the Circle of the capital, which should be the center of Andrastianism in Rivain, to freely train Seers.
It's not slavery, they are not treated like objects, they have rights and freedoms and thus it's not slavery. Even David Gaider himself has said it is not slavery.
David Gaider might be an authority when it comes to some facts that are not known, but with fact already on the table he can't do much unless he introduces some severe retcon.
Mages can't leave the circles without permission, under threat of capital punishment.
Mages can't have a family, their children are taken away from them to avoid forming any magical dynasties.
Mages can't hold titles or own land.
What exactly rights and freedoms they have? That they are allowed to choose what their favourite field of study it? That they may ask to get lobotomized?
How exactly is it not slavery?
Believe it or not, slaves don't need to go hungry to be slaves. Depending on what is the purpose of a slave they can live pretty luxuriously. As long as someone else decides their lives for them - they're slaves.
I absolutely despise this naive notion that all we have to do is give out friendship and love and we will be returned in kind when it is far more likely people will just take advantage of you. Would you invite a complete stranger armed with a weapon into your home?
It is important to not unnecessarily antagonize mages but it is even more important to have a system in place that prevents them from harming people, regardless if they wish to or not. Offer one hand but arm the other.
The problem with mages is that there are no easy solutions. Insisting that they're not slaves under the old system is playing with words, really, but that doesn't make the problem magically (
) disappear if you just dissolve the Circles. There are a couple things to consider:
1. A mage is pretty much armed, always, wherever he goes - by definition. You can't disarm a mage without... well. Cutting his arms off, I guess. Or lobotomizing him.
2. Threat of demonic possession might be exagerated by the Chantry, but it's very real nonetheless. Especially for undertrained mages, so...
3. It's important to have every gifted child receive proper education, as untrained mage possibly endangers himself and his surroundings
4. Even properly trained mage that wants more power than he can handle can become a demon-possessed abomination and endanger everyone he encounters until treated or slain (most likely the latter)
Obviously, those are valid concerns and Circles were created to address those problems. The area where old circles failed was in fact the implementation - and the fact that beside dangers of magic they tried to address the problems of "dangers of mages". Forceful seperation of families, heavy restrictions of freedom even after training, some basic unfairness of punishing people for things they MIGHT do though (if trained properly) most likely never will... This creates resistance both within circles and among possible candidates/their families. The side effect of this being proliferation of untrained or undertrained apostates. The answer: more repressions, phylacteria, apostate hunting. Which, obviously leads to desperate mages reaching for desperate measures.
If anything, it's absolutely amazing that this system actually worked to any extent for any period of time - it's a testament to Chantry's proficiency in indoctrination, really.
But the system as it was was inherently flawed, and that's from practical point of view rather than ethical. Circles really had to go. It's possible that College of Enchanters could take their place, I'd also say that existance of both Templars and some order of mages dedicated to fighting supernatural threats (including rogue mages) would be necessary in the long run... But then again, we've seen in Inquisition what happened with Templars and Seekers - any new/revived orders have a good chance of getting corrupted somewhere along the way too...
Either way, it's by no means an easy problem.
If it were, I guess we wouldn't have this discussion that derailed Leliana-as-Divine-centered post.
And why should it be time for something else? The Circles produced one rebellion in a thousand years of peace where non-magical society flourished. Why not another thousands years just like it? This rebellion requires Ferelden's monarchy and the Inquisition and an extremely pro-mage Divine in order to be successful. Otherwise, they are crushed.
If future rebellions prove just as effective, there is no reason to remove the Circle at all.
And why would there be another thousand years of the status quo? The mages just saw that it was indeed possible to defy the Chantry and the templars. That their nemesis does indeed bleed. Who's to say that future rebellions won't be even more effective, that they will not eventually take what is rightfully theirs? Stupid as they may be, they have the capacity to learn and adapt. Vivienne is a prime example of that, now what happens when you get a Libertarian Vivienne and her followers? Another Anders? A smarter Fiona? Another Pro-Mage Divine(which they all seem to be in one way or the other)? As for the circles, Tevinter has the right idea.
As for the claim the Circles are the ones creating Abominations, the logic is faulty.
Let us say that the Circle does breed resentment in a certain portion of the mage population. Let us also say concealing mages such as Connor leads to Abominations.
However, there are other factors to take into account.
For instance, fear beats resentment. This last vote only succeeded in dissolving the Circle because the mages were afraid of what the Templars would do if they surrendered.
Let the few resent and lash out. Most mages will be too afraid of the Templars and more common soldiers to do anything of the like.
For the sure the circles are not the only ones creating abominations but it can be argued that they haven't helped as much as the Chantry would love to believe. Rivain has possessed mages yet the only massacre that we hear about is the Chantry destroying them for being with their families. Hell, the "Annulment of Dairsmuid" in Inquisition does not even mention abominations as a cause: "they denounced us as apostates". The mages of Kirkwall's circle(where the veil was thin)seemed to be doing just fine until their Templars pushed them too hard and some became abominations. The Chasind and the Dalish seem to deal as well.
Eventually people get tired of being scared and create groups like The Resolutionists and other underground cells. They will adapt and they will find a way. Maybe in the manner of a reverse Andraste.
Finally, the if 1 mage in 10 is concealed from the Circle and becomes an Abomination, that is still preferable than 10 out of 10 mages being amidst the normal population with nothing but training and their morals preventing a massacre.
Even though Abominations are rare? Could be with or without the Southern circle. And I've never heard of Abomination problems in Tevinter and their circle is an academy rather than a prison.
And why would there be another thousand years of the status quo? The mages just saw that it was indeed possible to defy the Chantry and the templars. That their nemesis does indeed bleed. Who's to say that future rebellions won't be even more effective, that they will not eventually take what is rightfully theirs? Stupid as they may be, they have the capacity to learn and adapt. Vivienne is a prime example of that, now what happens when you get a Libertarian Vivienne and her followers? Another Anders? A smarter Fiona? Another Pro-Mage Divine(which they all seem to be in one way or the other)? As for the circles, Tevinter has the right idea.
For the sure the circles are not the only ones creating abominations but it can be argued that they haven't helped as much as the Chantry would love to believe. Rivain has possessed mages yet the only massacre that we hear about is the Chantry destroying them for being with their families. Hell, the "Annulment of Dairsmuid" in Inquisition does not even mention abominations as a cause: "they denounced us as apostates". The mages of Kirkwall's circle(where the veil was thin)seemed to be doing just fine until their Templars pushed them too hard and some became abominations. The Chasind and the Dalish seem to deal as well.
Eventually people get tired of being scared and create groups like The Resolutionists and other underground cells. They will adapt and they will find a way. Maybe in the manner of a reverse Andraste.
Even though Abominations are rare? Could be with or without the Southern circle. And I've never heard of Abomination problems in Tevinter and their circle is an academy rather than a prison.
Yes, let's emulate the nation where mages rule over everyone else sacrificing people in blood magic rituals to perpetuate their own infighting. Brilliant idea. Tevinter is in its sorry state because its templars are toothless and its Circles jokes. We saw what happened when they rebelled, they were forced to go to others for help because they were losing the war, and that's not likely to change in the future, as long as templars can negate magic they will always be disadvantaged.
Because Rivain considers abominations going rampant a natural disaster like a flood. Saying "oh yeah that village got wiped out by a flood" is the same to them as "og yeah an abomination took over and wiped out a village" We don't know enough about the Chascind, and the Dalisha re one magical disaster after another, when they aren't throwing mages into the wilderness.
It's strange. Compromise keeps Rivain together but It is one thing for the Andrastian monarchy to ignore traditional Rivain communities and their Seers to keep national cohesion and another thing entirely for them, who are supposedly Andrastian, allowing the Circle of the capital, which should be the center of Andrastianism in Rivain, to freely train Seers.
Well, that Circle was a facade to begin with - it's not that they were hiding their activities well, it's that everyone was ok with them.
The Seekers and Templars that actually discovered what was going on and took action came there from Ayesleigh - that seems to imply that any local Templars the circle had were actually in on everything that was going on.
We know little about political and religious distribution of power in Rivain, but it seems likely that the capital itself has relatively weak Chantry presence, with the country being so deep in its own traditions and with big Qunari presence. And I think we can assume that "discovery" of practices there by Chantry isn't what actually happened: they just stopped turning blind eye on what was obviously going on. It's likely that it was supposed to be the fear-inducing action, they annuled a small, unimportant circle that existed pretty much only for show to threaten the real Circles in the South... This, as we know, backfired badly. But when you think about it this way, it makes a lot more sense than assuming that nobody knew how the Circle actually operated.
Basically, I think that it was not so much actual blindness and deafness of supervision that protected the circle, but politic: to not push Rivain away from the Chantry, to not acknowledge how far Rivain is from Chantry ortodoxy, to not weaken the mages in Rivain (remember what is the stance on magic Qunari have - if you want to stop the Qun, it might be a good idea to leave mages alone, especially respected mages people tend to listen to). Then, however, hostilities between Templars and Mages escalated, some idiots decided to make an example and... there we go.
According to Codex, though, twice a year there is a big festival in the capital where the Seers gather in council, forge trade agreements and publically pledge loyalty to the monarch. Let me repeat: Seers hold a council, apparently meet with the queen and all this is all celebrated in a big festival.
http://dragonage.wik...and_the_Allsmet
That hardly sounds like a place where local Circle training Seers would be considered a problem...
According to the note, and the very end of Asunder IIRC, the annulment came after the conflict at the White Spire, so it was probably rogue Seekers with Templars in tow.
Of course, that doesn't answer for sure whether or not the Rivaini Chantry was involved (the author of the note could have just assumed so, by mistake). I could see it going either way.
Eh, as long as the circles are gone, I'm happy. The mages are happy. Everyone not happy can stick a nug up their arses for all I care. You all can do what you want, my mages are FREE.
I am glad that it seems that disbanding the circles seems to be the unpopular choice on BSN.
Like choosing Ashley and Synthesis.
I should clarify, I mean Ashley as a love interest.
Also it took me a while to realize who you meant with "Elvis"... Good one, I chuckled.
And your chart looks good. Personally, I thought:
Cassandra - Destroy
Leliana - Synthesis
Vivienne - B*tch
But to each his/her own.
Eh, as long as the circles are gone, I'm happy. The mages are happy. Everyone not happy can stick a nug up their arses for all I care. (...)
Ok, now putting aside the problem of Circles and mages...
WHAT THE HELL DID THE POOR NUG DO TO YOU!?
Yes, let's emulate the nation where mages rule over everyone else sacrificing people in blood magic rituals to perpetuate their own infighting. Brilliant idea. Tevinter is in its sorry state because its templars are toothless and its Circles jokes.
Completely irrelevant to its efficiency. They could sacrifice a thousand crippled children and their circles would still work as well if not better than the South's. Tevinter is holding off the Qunari and some factions still found time to f!ck with White Thedas; the South can bow to its better.
We saw what happened when they rebelled, they were forced to go to others for help because they were losing the war, and that's not likely to change in the future, as long as templars can negate magic they will always be disadvantaged.
Fiona spearheaded that faction and Bioware saw fit to drug her with stupid pills. Bet a mil that if it were Vivienne or someone like her, things would have turned out very differently.
Because Rivain considers abominations going rampant a natural disaster like a flood. Saying "oh yeah that village got wiped out by a flood" is the same to them as "og yeah an abomination took over and wiped out a village" We don't know enough about the Chascind, and the Dalisha re one magical disaster after another, when they aren't throwing mages into the wilderness.
Yet the people in Rivain do not cry out for the Chantry or its thugs. They do not scream oppression, they enjoy their way of life just fine. Isabela, the person we meet from that area is for mage freedom. So this idea that Rivain is being routinely destroyed by abominations and the people are "ruled" over (in the negative way that these words are used) is weak at its very best.
We do not know enough of the Chasind besides the fact that they exist and they have mages in positions of authority, true.
Like always, the best that I can say atm about the Dalish is "they're not all like that".
Completely irrelevant to its efficiency. They could sacrifice a thousand crippled children and their circles would still work as well if not better than the South's. Tevinter is holding off the Qunari and some factions still found time to f!ck with White Thedas; the South can bow to its better.
Fiona spearheaded that faction and Bioware saw fit to drug her with stupid pills. Bet a mil that if it were Vivienne or someone like her, things would have turned out very differently.
Yet the people in Rivain do not cry out for the Chantry or its thugs. They do not scream oppression, they enjoy their way of life just fine. Isabela, the person we meet from that area is for mage freedom. So this idea that Rivain is being routinely destroyed by abominations and the people are "ruled" over (in the negative way that these words are used) is weak at its very best.
If the goal of the Circle is to prevent the abuses of the masses by mages, then no, Tevinter's Circles have failed horribly.
I doubt it since mages were outnumbered, underpowered, and outgunned. There was only one way for the mage rebellion to go logically given the strength, efficiency, and martial prowess of the Templar Order.
Isabela is pro-Isabela and that's about the extent of her moral compass. Besides, live in a system long enough and many people will tolerate it, even if its abysmal
If the goal of the Circle is to prevent the abuses of the masses by mages, then no, Tevinter's Circles have failed horribly.
I doubt it since mages were outnumbered, underpowered, and outgunned. There was only one way for the mage rebellion to go logically given the strength, efficiency, and martial prowess of the Templar Order.
Isabela is pro-Isabela and that's about the extent of her moral compass. Besides, live in a system long enough and many people will tolerate it, even if its abysmal
No, they have not. Tevinter is a magocracy that allots more freedom to mundanes than mundanes to mages of the south. And I thought the goal of the Southern Circles was to protect the mundanes and the mages? They seem to be doing a sh*tty/half-assed job of the latter part. They could learn from the society that's fighting the Qunari that they are so afraid of.
There is never 'only one way' and Fiona is an idiot. The Templars are idiotic drug addicts who aren't keen enough to recognize a demon within their own ranks.
Yet we get no indication that it is abysmal.
Isabela returned the Tome of Koslun in my playthrough, essentially delivering herself into the hands of people who have about a thousand reasons to gut her...That doesn't seem very "Pro-Isabela" to me.
Please, do. I fear I might never hear it otherwise.
Aside from the basics, if you harden Leliana, she has a particularly colorful way of handling with people who resist her reforms or call them heresies: "Her response is as swift as it is deadly; unity is maintained, but blood runs through thee halls of the Grand Cathedral."
I can't see how anyone heard that line and thought what she does didn't come with a cost.
Ok, now putting aside the problem of Circles and mages...
WHAT THE HELL DID THE POOR NUG DO TO YOU!?
That nug knows...
It knows...
No, they have not. Tevinter is a magocracy that allots more freedom to mundanes than mundanes to mages of the south. And I thought the goal of the Southern Circles was to protect the mundanes and the mages? They seem to be doing a sh*tty/half-assed job of the latter part. They could learn from the society that's fighting the Qunari that they are so afraid of.
There is never 'only one way' and Fiona is an idiot. The Templars are idiotic drug addicts who aren't keen enough to recognize a demon within their own ranks.
Yet we get no indication that it is abysmal.
Isabela returned the Tome of Koslun in my playthrough, essentially delivering herself into the hands of people who have about a thousand reasons to gut her...That doesn't seem very "Pro-Isabela" to me.
Mages are allowed to raise dissent, enjoy free access to education, shelter, and food, in addition to sanctioned travel, don't pretend they are forced into cells. They have a standard of life far above most mundanes in the South. Powerful mages can even gain roles in Court life, serve in the army/wardens.
Mages aren't being lynched in the streets like they used to be, we hear numerous examples, Minaeve and Wynne being the foremost of mages who openly embrace the Circle system because they were too scared of life outside of them.
The Envy demon did cloister itself away from the rank and file and relayed orders through subordinates in the know. On top of that, the Seeker Order was betrayed by its own leader who was insane, I do not blame the individual knights for the failings of their leadership, especially since its a military order.
If abominations are considered the same as floods and just a part of life then I will say it is an abysmal state. "Oh another seer truend all nasty and burned a village, oh well"
After allowing the Qunari to stay in Kirkwall for years because she didn't want to take responsibility, she only spoke up AFTER they started rampaging throughout the whole damn city. That is not selfless action
Mages are allowed to raise dissent, enjoy free access to education, shelter, and food, in addition to sanctioned travel, don't pretend they are forced into cells. They have a standard of life far above most mundanes in the South. Powerful mages can even gain roles in Court life, serve in the army/wardens.
Mages aren't being lynched in the streets like they used to be, we hear numerous examples, Minaeve and Wynne being the foremost of mages who openly embrace the Circle system because they were too scared of life outside of them.
The Envy demon did cloister itself away from the rank and file and relayed orders through subordinates in the know. On top of that, the Seeker Order was betrayed by its own leader who was insane, I do not blame the individual knights for the failings of their leadership, especially since its a military order.
If abominations are considered the same as floods and just a part of life then I will say it is an abysmal state. "Oh another seer truend all nasty and burned a village, oh well"
After allowing the Qunari to stay in Kirkwall for years because she didn't want to take responsibility, she only spoke up AFTER they started rampaging throughout the whole damn city. That is not selfless action
Templars failed in Fereldan, failed in the Freemarches/Kirkwall, failed at the White Spire, and they failed when their Divine needed them most. Mages who raise dissent are mostly ignored at best and punished at worst. It's been so bad that the f!cking Divine sympathized with them. Sacrificing her reputation amongst her own. And the ones after her make things better for mages, because most Southerners (especially the ones we meet) have less rights than mundanes in Tevinter. It is only the ones who adhere to magic being a curse and being the Chantry's and whoever else's play things that ever benefit from the system. Not unlike Danarius' relationship with Fenris' sister in principle.
The Envy Demon and the Seekers are just other failings of their "Holy Orders". Though sympathetic, I blame them because they are lapdogs who do what they are told no matter how stupid. Like the mages that they think they are so much better than.
Not according to the people of Rivain.
It's selfless in the end because she owned up to it, instead of running away as is her character.
About Rivain, I'd like to say two more things.
First of all, considering abominations a natural disaster seems pretty reasonable, when you think of it. Basically, you can't punish a mage that became an abomination - he's in the middle of suffering fate worse than death. A mage that actually gets possessed by a demon and fails to defend himself is the first victim of the incident. Responsibility for f*cking up this way is already built-in. So the question isn't about "making mages responsible for their actions" - they already are, more than anyone else. You can, however, think about minimizing risks and damage... which is pretty much what you can do when it comes to natural disasters.
So, with that covered, let's move to practicalities. In Rivain mages are everywhere. They are trained, regardless of what some people here would like to say (their knowledge is passed from generation to generation and the annuled Circle even specialized in more organized teaching of this particular brand of magic; Seers are not self-taught, "hedge mages" once again end up meaning in their case nothing more than "outside our obviously-only-true magical tradition").
Training, however, doesn't completely prevent demonic possession, that much is pretty obvious. It's not unreasonable that someone may say "a mage living among people is dangerous since she can get possessed and kill people before anyone capable of stopping her (Templars/trained soldiers/other mages) interfers". Fair enough. The people, however, still want their witches, they're protected and celebrated - why would that be? The answer is pretty simple, really: their presence is beneficial to the communities. If almost every village has its witch working for the community, it means broad access to magical healing, most likely also to some practical weather-controlling magic, to insight concerning things magical and spiritual, to knowledge the Fade and spirits have to offer... If your people and animals are healthy, your ground fertile and you can count on your seer's magic to mitigate effects of what would otherwise be a draught claiming lives - how can we say it's not worth risk of magically-born natural disaster that is an abomination? It's true that living with a seer you risk your life, but it's her that risks her life the most... and I'd say famine and plague are more dangerous in the long run than a mage.
Obviously, we can't make a judgement about how harmful or beneficial the system is since we have little knowledge concerning both actual benefits from having a seer and actual frequency of demon possession incidents (as well as their actual deadliness). What we know is that Rivaini have access to magic and pay the price for it - how can we call the system "abysmal" if we don't know exactly how big the benefit of said magic is nor how high the price?
About Rivain, I'd like to say two more things.
First of all, considering abominations a natural disaster seems pretty reasonable, when you think of it. Basically, you can't punish a mage that became an abomination - he's in the middle of suffering fate worse than death. A mage that actually gets possessed by a demon and fails to defend himself is the first victim of the incident. Responsibility for f*cking up this way is already built-in. So the question isn't about "making mages responsible for their actions" - they already are, more than anyone else. You can, however, think about minimizing risks and damage... which is pretty much what you can do when it comes to natural disasters.
you absolutely can, he's either too weak to fend one off, or he willingly let it posses him
Retour en haut