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[Steelcan]

Templars failed in Fereldan, failed in the Freemarches/Kirkwall, failed at the White Spire, and they failed when their Divine needed them most. Mages who raise dissent are mostly ignored at best and punished at worst. It's been so bad that the f!cking Divine sympathized with them. Sacrificing her reputation amongst her own.  And the ones after her make things better for mages, because most Southerners (especially the ones we meet) have less rights than mundanes in Tevinter. It is only the ones who adhere to magic being a curse and being the Chantry's and whoever else's play things that ever benefit from the system. Not unlike Danarius' relationship with Fenris' sister in principle.

 

The Envy Demon and the Seekers are just other failings of their "Holy Orders". Though sympathetic, I blame them because they are lapdogs who do what they are told no matter how stupid. Like the mages that they think they are so much better than.

Not according to the people of Rivain.

It's selfless in the end because she owned up to it, instead of running away as is her character.
 

Correction, they CAN fail in Ferelden and Kirkwall.  Or the PC can help them, or int he case of Ferelden reveal than an Annulment is unnecessary.  Wynne never really came off with "magic is a curse" and she obviously did pretty well being granted extended leave from the Circle, even staying on in Denerim, and she wasn't even first encahnter at the time.

 

It is no failing to be tricked and try to make up for it afterwards.

 

Congrats, the people who are ok with abominations going on the occasionally rampage shouldn't be trusted to manage their own affairs then

 

She ran away, then came back, she is not off the hook

[dragonflight288]

Fascinating debate I've been reading the past few pages.

 

Long story short as I see it, the Circle before Asunder is a broken system. It failed miserably in its appointed task. Giving the mages a place to freely practice magic and be protected, keeping the mundanes safe from the dangers of magic and demons, and allowing the mages to live in insular societies governed by a council of enchanters and advised and guarded by templars. 

 

If you have fourteen circles and 17 annulments over the course of 700 years, and the system allows blatant and atrocious abuses by the caretakers, and the very rites meant to be last resorts (tranquility and annulment) being used as bludgeoning tools and punishments (particularly tranquility) then the system itself is wrong or flawed. 

 

I'm all for reforming the Circle, and luckily my playthroughs in Inquisition allow me influence the direction of those reforms, but the status quo is a system that is broken and not worth saving. 

[Steelcan]

We'd need more info on the Annulments, of all the ones invoked, we can only say for certain whether they were justified or not in a few cases, in Ferelden during the 5th Blight, very much so, Kirkwall, no, and in Rivain, debateable whether it was even Chnatry called or just rogue Seekers and Templars

[Master Warder Z_]

We'd need more info on the Annulments, of all the ones invoked, we can only say for certain whether they were justified or not in a few cases, in Ferelden during the 5th Blight, very much so, Kirkwall, no, and in Rivain, debateable whether it was even Chnatry called or just rogue Seekers and Templars

 

o_o All anulluments are justified.

 

Everything is permitted in the service of the Faith when it comes to protecting normal people from the lunacy of mages.

 

And that includes excising the taint from a circle too far gone to be saved.

.

[Br3admax]

Meredith's Annulment wasn't justified because she did not have evidence to justify it as of yet, so while it would have been perfectly acceptable after the fact, it wasn't before. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Meredith's Annulment wasn't justified because she did not have evidence to justify it as of yet, so while it would have been perfectly acceptable after the fact, it wasn't before. 

 

A fair point; but you also admit it would have been acceptable once it was done, so i really don't see the problem here.

 

Sure the initial justification didn't cover it, but what it uncovered certainly did.

[Barquiel]

We'd need more info on the Annulments, of all the ones invoked, we can only say for certain whether they were justified or not in a few cases, in Ferelden during the 5th Blight, very much so, Kirkwall, no, and in Rivain, debateable whether it was even Chnatry called or just rogue Seekers and Templars

I can't think of a scenario where the right of annulment would be necessary. Take for example those children Wynne defends in Ferelden's circle. They are obviously no abominations, but the templars would still kill (or tranquilize) them. Why not spare these mages and examine them after the battle is over? Then the templars could still execute the mages who are possessed, but the lifes of innocents would be saved.

[The Baconer]

you absolutely can,

 

How?

[Steelcan]

I can't think of a scenario where the right of annulment would be necessary. Take for example those children Wynne defends in Ferelden's circle. They are obviously no abominations, but the templars would still kill (or tranquilize) them. Why not spare these mages and examine them after the battle is over? Then the templars could still execute the mages who are possessed, but the lifes of innocents would be saved.

I mean justified in calling it, the templars at the time they sent for the Rite's approval had no reason to believe any mages were still alive

[Steelcan]

How?

Possession is either the result of being too weak to resist in which case tranquility is necessary, or willingly accepting the demon in.

 

The only known exception is Envy who doesn't possess so much as imitate

[Eliastion]

you absolutely can, he's either too weak to fend one off, or he willingly let it posses him

You misunderstood me, you can't punish him as in: you are not able to punish him. He's possessed by a demon, stripped of control of his own body, the latter possibly twisted into something awful... You can't do anything worse to him. If you kill him, you're doing him a favor... especially if he still retains some measure of consciousness.

 

Ok, technically speaking, if you're really determined, you could perhaps capture the abomination alive, exorcise the demon and then enact some form of punishment. But that seems like an awful lot of extra work (and risk) compared to just killing the monster.

[The Baconer]

Possession is either the result of being too weak to resist in which case tranquility is necessary, or willingly accepting the demon in.

 

How do you punish a mage that has already become an abomination?

 

Also, Tranquility isn't a punishment. At least, it's not meant to be.

[Steelcan]

How do you punish a mage that has already become an abomination?

 

Also, Tranquility isn't a punishment. At least, it's not meant to be.

it is possible, as seen with Connor, to exorcise the demon

 

Obviously this is a hilariously inefficient way to deal with abominations, but the option does exist

[Master Warder Z_]

it is possible, as seen with Connor, to exorcise the demon

 

Obviously this is a hilariously inefficient way to deal with abominations, but the option does exist

 

o.o 

 

Its much better to simply ram a sword into their gullet and be done with it.

[EmissaryofLies]

Correction, they CAN fail in Ferelden and Kirkwall.  Or the PC can help them, or int he case of Ferelden reveal than an Annulment is unnecessary.  Wynne never really came off with "magic is a curse" and she obviously did pretty well being granted extended leave from the Circle, even staying on in Denerim, and she wasn't even first encahnter at the time.

 

It is no failing to be tricked and try to make up for it afterwards.

 

Congrats, the people who are ok with abominations going on the occasionally rampage shouldn't be trusted to manage their own affairs then

 

She ran away, then came back, she is not off the hook

 

Oh they fail. The PC just so happens to clean up their collective mess. Wynne did well for herself and was a champion of the Chantry/Templar Circle of Magi. She fell in line, did what she was told, and asked for permission like a good girl. A few steps above Keili, but she shares the same collar all the same.

 

Ah, so by that token Fiona did not fail. She was tricked (time magic, led to believe that Tevinter was the only way out and that the main force of the Templars was bearing down on her) and makes up for it by helping the Inquisition.

 

Yes, better to send thugs to slaughter them because you do not like the way they tend to their own backyard.

 

But she's so pretty and the PC is able to fix her and redeem her, kind of. 

[Steelcan]

Oh they fail. The PC just so happens to clean up their collective mess. Wynne did well for herself and was a champion of the Chantry/Templar Circle of Magi. She fell in line, did what she was told, and asked for permission like a good girl. A few steps above Keili, but she shares the same collar all the same.

 

Ah, so by that token Fiona did not fail. She was tricked (time magic, led to believe that Tevinter was the only way out and that the main force of the Templars was bearing down on her) and makes up for it by helping the Inquisition.

 

Yes, better to send thugs to slaughter them because you do not like the way they tend to their own backyard.

had the Hero of Ferelden not shown up, reinforcements would have arrived from Denerim and the Circle annulled, so its not a failure at all, even if Hawke saves some of the mages the Circle is still razed.  Who would have guessed, following the rules and behaving reasonably leads to rewards.....

 

Fiona was also tricked, i don't blame her for that.  I blame her for stupid reasoning that let her be tricked, selling people into slavery, starting a war she couldn't win, etc....

 

If they way they tend their garden means lots of people dying as a side affect you can be damn sure I'll tell them whats what

[Hellion Rex]

How do you punish a mage that has already become an abomination?

 

Also, Tranquility isn't a punishment. At least, it's not meant to be.

Kill them, I would say. It would take too much lyrium to try and exorcize the demon every time it occurs. And that's assuming that the Enchanter who goes into exorcize the demon would even be able to win the fight against the demon.

[Steelcan]

Kill them, I would say. It would take too much lyrium to try and exorcize the demon every time it occurs. And that's assuming that the Enchanter who goes into exorcize the demon would even be able to win the fight against the demon.

and that's just one mage, if Annulments are being considered its gone well past the point of one

[Eliastion]

 

 

If they way they tend their garden means lots of people dying as a side affect you can be damn sure I'll tell them whats what

And how many people die to starvations, wounds and ilnesses that could be treated by magic but are not because not every village has a mage? How many natural disasters can be predicted (if not prevented) thanks to mistical insight? 

The thing is, we know very little about Rivaini magic and it's not only possible but very likely that the Rivaini system actually saves a lot more people than the occasional abomination rampage manages to kill.

[Hellion Rex]

and that's just one mage, if Annulments are being considered its gone well past the point of one

Oh yeah. If an Annulment is well being considered, unless there were some very, very special extenuating circumstances (i.e. we have a PC able to intervene), I would say that it's best to kill them all. I would not be proud of such action, but I would rather one Circle burn than let those demons outside of that one tiny area.

[Eliastion]

Kill them, I would say. It would take too much lyrium to try and exorcize the demon every time it occurs. And that's assuming that the Enchanter who goes into exorcize the demon would even be able to win the fight against the demon.

But killing an abomination isn't a punishment - being dead is highly preferable to looking (in brief moments of awareness) at your demon-controlled, twisted into a monster body rampaging around.

[Steelcan]

But killing an abomination isn't a punishment - being dead is highly preferable to looking (in brief moments of awareness) at your demon-controlled, twisted into a monster body rampaging around.

unless you are Anders, then you roll with it for a few years

[Eliastion]

had the Hero of Ferelden not shown up, reinforcements would have arrived from Denerim and the Circle annulled, so its not a failure at all, even if Hawke saves some of the mages the Circle is still razed.  Who would have guessed, following the rules and behaving reasonably leads to rewards.....

 

(...)

Rewards like getting slaughtered along with blood mages and abominations they created? That's what most surviving rule-following, reasonable mages from the Circle in Ferelden could count on without HoF intervention.

[Steelcan]

Rewards like getting slaughtered along with blood mages and abominations they created? That's what most surviving rule-following, reasonable mages from the Circle in Ferelden could count on without HoF intervention.

we meet a grand total of what, six mages who aren't possessed in Ferelden's Circle?  (Assuming Irving survives) from a Circle of hundreds?  The odds of them dying in an Annulment are pretty slim

[Eliastion]

unless you are Anders, then you roll with it for a few years

Well, he pretty much possessed the spirit and twisted it into something unnatural after a couple years, not the other way around... That's quite a special case.

And then there are the Seekers who also are technically speaking abominations (if you lump spirit and demon possession into one category) and MOSTLY don't turn into monsters...