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So I guess Leliana with conscripted mages is the best ending for most.


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#551
Br3admax

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What the Inquisitor says when you conscript them is completely different of what you wrote.
He said there is no time to wait the order rebuild and advise them to disband the Order and join the Inquisition, all Templars agreed with this decision. You can say my reasons are shitty, but they are supported by the game.

Good thing I wasn't talking about conscripting the Templars, so what you wrote isn't even relevant. And obviously the Inquisitor's opinion changes, but as far as outside of the game, where the only real differences exist, these are really the only reasons to make either choice. Especially since what is said makes no sense. 

 

I allied with the mages because I think they deserve the chance to prove they can watch themselves. Now that the templar threat is removed there are also no more excuses.

There were no excuses before. You're obviously just able to look past that. Takes a serious leap in logic to think either factions were actually threats by the time we get to them alone. 


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#552
dragonflight288

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But can they be free and not be rulers?

Rivain, regardless of how it is ruled, because no it isn't "obvious" one way or another, indicates otherwise.

 

Sure they can. And even if some mages end up in a position of influence, why would that automatically necessitate disaster?

 

Sure, one or two Seers may end up in a position of influence that may or may not direct the local villages, larger settlements or even possibly the country itself, but the very nature of being a mage or a Seer is not an immediate disqualifier about their capacity to rule. What does or does not, or more realistically, what should and should not qualify a person for a position of power is not their abilities but their willingness to use that power at various levels. A person in any level of authority has the potential to abuse their power. Howe being a prime example. He purged an alienage, slaughtered an entire family to claim a teyrnir, embezzled silver from the treasury during wartime, hired miscreants and criminals to be part of the city watch, tortured fellow nobles and political opponents and so on and he didn't have an ounce of magic in his veins.

 

Does that mean that every Howe is going to be the same by virtue of being a Howe? If Nathanial is ever in a position of power or authority, what's to stop him from becoming another Rendon Howe? The answer is simple. Himself.

 

Sure, you can make an argument using the lore that the Rivaini's aren't ruled by mages, but to a certain extent are governed by them, but this does not have to be a bad thing because the ones who are doing the advising or making decisions may or may not have magic. 

 

It only becomes a bad thing when the person in charge starts making decisions that affects the country, its citizens and people negatively. You don't have to be a mage for that to happen.

 

 

Like yourself?

Expect the norm or don't either way it's conjecture.

 

Hence why I said my theory was based on all the lore established. And what is established is straightforward.

 

1. Rivain is an exception to the Circle systems because of the widespread support of mages and the Seers, who have a respected place in society.

2. The Seers allow themselves to be possessed by Spirits (not necessarily demons.)

3. Abominations are rare in Rivain, and when they do happen, it's treated as a natural disaster and not the fault of the mage itself.

4. Mage freely associate with their families.

5. Mages associating with their families and that some mages are trained as seers is why the Circle, the one with the most exceptions, was annulled, and it was not popular with the people.

6. There is no confirmed widescale blood magic or slavery.

 

"It is a mistake to form theories before we have the facts. Inevitably we try to twist the fact to fit our theories rather than twist our theories to fit the facts." (Sherlock Holmes.)

 

As such, based on the evidence we have of Rivain, it is logical to come to the conclusion that Rivain is not the same as Tevinter, does not have many abominations despite mages willingly allowing themselves to be possessed, had a Circle in name only, and some paranoid zealots in the Seekers and Templars didn't like it.

 

If Rivain was having more problems, it would be established. Like Tevinter and its hypocrisy on blood magic and it being a slaving nation, the Anderfels and how the Wardens practically run things, Orlais and its issues with "the game" and the huge disconnect between the rights of the nobility and military (chevaliers) compared to the commoners, or the Free Marches being a city of City States and isn't an actual country. 

 

You're right in saying that my conclusion is ultimately conjecture, but my conjecture is based on established facts and lore, and nothing in any of it does anything to contradict my argument, as such my opinion about Rivain's society and how I see it holds a lot of water and doesn't have any holes beyond "it's just conjecture." If more evidence comes out later about how Rivain works, then I'll once again have to adjust my theory to fit the facts.

 

 

Not at all because Seekers only had their minds touched by spirits, they were never possessed. Seers are posses which is dangerous regardless of how benevolent one might consider spirits to be. Anders proved as much.

 

Also, just because people feel attached to a culture, it doesn't mean it is even beneficial for them. Of course, whether we will consider to be beneficial will be influenced by our own culture.

At any rate, popularity doesn't equal being right.

 

Anders proved how corrupting an influence can be on a spirit, and Solas proves that if you remove such corrupting influences then you can have rare and powerful spirits as great friends with his personal quest and the spirit of wisdom.

 

I'm not saying Anders is right or wrong, especially since I usually execute him, but what I am saying is that there is no "one-size-fits-all" definition of spirit possession. Anders and Wynne both prove this, heck Flemeth/Mythal alone is an extremely unique situation. 

 

And I didn't say that Seekers were possessed, I said that if you denounce affiliation with spirits or thinking you can control them, then you ought to denounce the Seekers because of their long-term use of Fade Spirits being used to cure tranquility. How is that particular spirit called? How is it convinced to touch the mind of the tranquilized seeker-to-be? How is it controlled if it is not persuaded? These are questions that the Seekers under Cassandra must answer. The implications of such are quite staggering to be honest. Because it shows us that the Seekers, even if they aren't possessed, are summoning spirits. 

 

If your response is that Seekers have a long tradition with few disasters as proof of their capability, then I would respond by saying so do the Seers according to the lore. 

 

Without more information on how Rivaini Seers actually are, and the nature of their possession, it is impossible to write them all off as abominations, and that is my argument. 

 

And you're right that popular doesn't mean right, but there is no evidence that even suggests that the Rivaini's are wrong beyond what we expect of possessed mages. But since mages being possessed has so many varieties and even that may change based on the nature of a spirit, then it is impossible to judge the Seers based on the information we have now. 


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#553
TK514

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3. Abominations are rare in Rivain, and when they do happen, it's treated as a natural disaster and not the fault of the mage itself.


And I didn't say that Seekers were possessed, I said that if you denounce affiliation with spirits or thinking you can control them, then you ought to denounce the Seekers because of their long-term use of Fade Spirits being used to cure tranquility. How is that particular spirit called? How is it convinced to touch the mind of the tranquilized seeker-to-be? How is it controlled if it is not persuaded? These are questions that the Seekers under Cassandra must answer. The implications of such are quite staggering to be honest. Because it shows us that the Seekers, even if they aren't possessed, are summoning spirits.

 

I need to be reminded where Abomination frequency in Rivain is discussed.  I honestly don't remember.  Absent that, treating them like natural disasters does not, in and of itself, indicate rarity or severity.  Take Earthquakes.  If you have a minor quake in California (Rivain), people shrug and go on with life.  Happens all the time.  The same quake in New York (Val Royeaux) might be treated like the end of the world.

 

And, some speculation on my part, the Seekers probably summon and control spirits the exact same way the Circles do for a Mage's Harrowing.  Spirit summoning is not unusual, or particularly noteworthy, in the White Chantry.  Making a non-Mage Tranquil, and then curing them, is the dark secret here. 

 

Though I must be forgetting something, because I don't understand why that particular bit of information was enough to drive the Lord Seeker to lose his mind and join an insane doomsday cult.



#554
Kinsz

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Is that a true rune as your avi ?


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#555
The Baconer

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Though I must be forgetting something, because I don't understand why that particular bit of information was enough to drive the Lord Seeker to lose his mind and join an insane doomsday cult.

 

I have a feeling the ritual goes beyond being simply "touched" by a spirit.



#556
NotTheDarkKnightReturns

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Leliana sucks, tbh. Cassandra is the best only Divine.



#557
MisterJB

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Sure they can. And even if some mages end up in a position of influence, why would that automatically necessitate disaster?

 

Sure, one or two Seers may end up in a position of influence that may or may not direct the local villages, larger settlements or even possibly the country itself, but the very nature of being a mage or a Seer is not an immediate disqualifier about their capacity to rule. What does or does not, or more realistically, what should and should not qualify a person for a position of power is not their abilities but their willingness to use that power at various levels. A person in any level of authority has the potential to abuse their power. Howe being a prime example. He purged an alienage, slaughtered an entire family to claim a teyrnir, embezzled silver from the treasury during wartime, hired miscreants and criminals to be part of the city watch, tortured fellow nobles and political opponents and so on and he didn't have an ounce of magic in his veins.

 

Does that mean that every Howe is going to be the same by virtue of being a Howe? If Nathanial is ever in a position of power or authority, what's to stop him from becoming another Rendon Howe? The answer is simple. Himself.

 

Sure, you can make an argument using the lore that the Rivaini's aren't ruled by mages, but to a certain extent are governed by them, but this does not have to be a bad thing because the ones who are doing the advising or making decisions may or may not have magic. 

 

It only becomes a bad thing when the person in charge starts making decisions that affects the country, its citizens and people negatively. You don't have to be a mage for that to happen.

It's not a matter of bad or good governance but of autonomy.

Being ruled by one's own people should be a basic right of any group, do you deny this?
Even if you do, the mages seemingly don't because they went to war so they could rule themselves.

 

Therefore, the question is not whether mages make good or bad rules but whether they, by virtue of being powerful, will always end up dominating society if not kept in check as powerful creatures are wanton to do.

The fact remains that every society where mages aren't shackled is ruled by mages. Tevinter, the Dalish, Rivain, the Chasind.

 

 

Anders proved how corrupting an influence can be on a spirit, and Solas proves that if you remove such corrupting influences then you can have rare and powerful spirits as great friends with his personal quest and the spirit of wisdom.

 

I'm not saying Anders is right or wrong, especially since I usually execute him, but what I am saying is that there is no "one-size-fits-all" definition of spirit possession. Anders and Wynne both prove this, heck Flemeth/Mythal alone is an extremely unique situation. 

 

But it is, undeniably, extremely dangerous. And unless there is some equally extreme reason as to why it is necessary, spirit possession means the Seers are placing the people at risk for no reason.

 

And I didn't say that Seekers were possessed, I said that if you denounce affiliation with spirits or thinking you can control them, then you ought to denounce the Seekers because of their long-term use of Fade Spirits being used to cure tranquility. How is that particular spirit called? How is it convinced to touch the mind of the tranquilized seeker-to-be? How is it controlled if it is not persuaded? These are questions that the Seekers under Cassandra must answer. The implications of such are quite staggering to be honest. Because it shows us that the Seekers, even if they aren't possessed, are summoning spirits. 

 

If your response is that Seekers have a long tradition with few disasters as proof of their capability, then I would respond by saying so do the Seers 

If there is no possession, there is no threat.

Heck, Seekers can't be possessed. Period.



#558
Hellion Rex

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If there is no possession, there is no threat.

Heck, Seekers can't be possessed. Period.

 

Question, then. What the living hell happened to Daniel? That was one thing that I thought was never made clear.



#559
AresKeith

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Question, then. What the living hell happened to Daniel? That was one thing that I thought was never made clear.

 

My guess is that it tried to possess him, which caused a lot of damage 



#560
Vit246

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Seers are posses which is dangerous regardless of how benevolent one might consider spirits to be. Anders proved as much.

 

Anders is an emotionally unstable and psychologically damaged mage. He twisted the spirit. He would never be a suitable human host or candidate for seers.



#561
raging_monkey

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Yes I am since I'm not banned. Man, helping to get thedarkknightreturns banned will forever be one of my achievements. Guess pro-templars showed their true colors. As much as you like to insult me, the fact that he got banned and not be clearly shows who the bad guy is.

he was a pro mage moderate like me and to a extent you. So just partly alienated one of ours... think about that
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#562
The Baconer

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It's not a matter of bad or good governance but of autonomy.
Being ruled by one's own people should be a basic right of any group, do you deny this?


Define "one's own people".

#563
MisterJB

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Anders is an emotionally unstable and psychologically damaged mage. He twisted the spirit. He would never be a suitable human host or candidate for seers.

As far as I know, the lore has never said that Seers have a screening process.

 

Besides, we are talking about alien entities completely focused on the pursuit of an impossible ideal who can't even understand the concept of time and can corrupted by something as simple as a strong belief.

 Regardless of candidates, that is ridiculously dangerous.



#564
MisterJB

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Define "one's own people".

"one's own people" can be as broad as the person you ask.

However, the people of Thedas have divided themselves into clear groups and subgroups. humans vs elves, nations vs nations, normals vs mages.

 



#565
thesuperdarkone2

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I got the story just wondering if it was worth reporting or not :P

There's a rule against false reporting. If the mods find it to be just reporting for the sake of reporting, you might be the one to get the warning/ban. Care to take the risk? JB tried the same thing and nothing happened to me. I doubt this stuff will cause anything.



#566
Hellion Rex

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"one's own people" can be as broad as the person you ask.

However, the people of Thedas have divided themselves into clear groups and subgroups. humans vs elves, nations vs nations, normals vs mages.

I wouldn't say that necessarily. I don't quite agree with your assumption of the divisions between people.



#567
thesuperdarkone2

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I wouldn't say that necessarily. I don't quite agree with your assumption of the divisions between people.

If people immediately assume that there will always be divisions, how can there be peace? 

 

P.S. Didn't even get a warning. What were all you people expecting?



#568
TheTurtle

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There's a rule against false reporting. If the mods find it to be just reporting for the sake of reporting, you might be the one to get the warning/ban. Care to take the risk? JB tried the same thing and nothing happened to me. I doubt this stuff will cause anything.

You're behaving like an immature child and gloating about getting another member banned despite not knowing what they were banned for, so yeah that's grounds enough to report you.


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#569
NotTheDarkKnightReturns

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Just drop it folks, it's not worth it.


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#570
thesuperdarkone2

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You're behaving like an immature child and gloating about getting another member banned despite not knowing what they were banned for, so yeah that's grounds enough to report you.

Last time regarding this: Other posters have implied that he got banned due to his comments in the Leliana topics. Considering his average comments, I consider that just desserts.

 

I wasn't punished. The worst that happened now was the removal of my posts, nothing more. What did you think was going to happen?

 

 

On-topic: Do you even know how many abominations occur in Rivain? If they occur only every several years, that is no different than a natural disaster. And do we even know how destructive they are?



#571
Hellion Rex

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Last time regarding this: Other posters have implied that he got banned due to his comments in the Leliana topics. Considering his average comments, I consider that just desserts.

 

I wasn't punished. The worst that happened now was the removal of my posts, nothing more. What did you think was going to happen?

 

Good Lord, can you not?



#572
MisterJB

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Question, then. What the living hell happened to Daniel? That was one thing that I thought was never made clear.

It wasn't. He claims he wasn't possessed but rather was fed things and a demon was growing inside him.

Hell if I know. Demons can be grown? That sounds ridiculous.



#573
thesuperdarkone2

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It wasn't. He claims he wasn't possessed but rather was fed things and a demon was growing inside him.

Hell if I know. Demons can be grown? That sounds ridiculous.

Maybe fed red lyrium.



#574
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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I always assumed he was fed red lyrium and, unlike our companions in the alternative future, couldn't stomach it as well.

 

"edit"

 

Ninja'd



#575
MisterJB

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The letter penned by Calpernia reads that the Seekers delivered to the Promisers precisely because they are resistant to Red Lyrium.