636 réponses à ce sujet

[Eliastion]

That's just it.  Spirits are sentient.  Why would a Spirit of Faith attempt to hide the fact that it was hanging around in someone's body?

 

Because Cole was so big on getting noticed, right? 

[TK514]

Cole isn't a Spirit of Faith, nor was he inhabiting someone else's body.

[The Baconer]

Tranquility isn't a sentient being sharing your body.

 

Spirits have emulated or "embodied" people before, without even being aware themselves. The details of the ritual and its results as described, when compared to our current firsthand knowledge of spirit-merging, along with the infliction of Tranquility and its cure, do not add up. Until we get a more in-depth explanation of the Seeker's ritual, I'm going to assume it's more than Cassandra's extremely brief and vague summary.

[Eliastion]

Cole would know. Solas would know. She also visits the Fade and nothing happens. 

That's much stronger reasoning than "Cassandra would notice", but I'm not completely convinced. Cole is being... Cole. He even talks to Cass (telling her that it was her faith that resultet in Spirit coming to her, not the other way 'round) but that's inconclusive. And we all know how forthcoming Solas tends to be with things people would freak out about...

And as for Fade - Wynne also visits Fade with you in DA:O and nothing happens. And her spirit is in fact a Faith too...

 

All in all, the best argument against Seekers being actually possessed is lack of comment from Solas. And lack of comment, especially from Solas... well. That's definitely not enough to rid me of my doubts concerning the idea of being only briefly "touched" by Spirit with lasting effects in form of special abilities. And don't get me wrong - I do acknowledge possibility that the Touching is just a brief contact with the Spirt, but I just don't see enough evidence to consider it the only possibility - permanent possession simply does better job at explaining a couple things. Plus I'm a sucker for delicious irony of Templars being policed by a bunch of abominations, but that's kinda besides the point

I assume we will know more at some time point when Tranquility and cure for it are explored further - and I bet we're not completely finished with the topic.

[thesuperdarkone2]

That's much stronger reasoning than "Cassandra would notice", but I'm not completely convinced. Cole is being... Cole. He even talks to Cass (telling her that it was her faith that resultet in Spirit coming to her, not the other way 'round) but that's inconclusive. And we all know how forthcoming Solas tends to be with things people would freak out about...

And as for Fade - Wynne also visits Fade with you in DA:O and nothing happens. And her spirit is in fact a Faith too...

 

All in all, the best argument against Seekers being actually possessed is lack of comment from Solas. And lack of comment, especially from Solas... well. That's definitely not enough to rid me of my doubts concerning the idea of being only briefly "touched" by Spirit with lasting effects in form of special abilities. And don't get me wrong - I do acknowledge possibility that the Touching is just a brief contact with the Spirt, but I just don't see enough evidence to consider it the only possibility - permanent possession simply does better job at explaining a couple things. Plus I'm a sucker for delicious irony of Templars being policed by a bunch of abominations, but that's kinda besides the point

I assume we will know more at some time point when Tranquility and cure for it are explored further - and I bet we're not completely finished with the topic.

Considering that there are no mage seekers, it's likely that the Seekers do in fact have some way to summon a spirit without magic. Wonder what other secrets the Seekers have. Probably something that makes them even bigger douchebags.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ritual invoking doesn't require magic as we saw in DA2

[MisterJB]

1. The apparent difference between you and me is that I don't differentiate mages by virtue of them being mages. They are people, same as anyone else, born with more power and thus are subject to more accountability to their self-control and need for training, but a human mage is still a human, an elven mage is still elven, and even then they may grow up in a culture where neither their magic or their race matters. If they are born and grow up in the Qun, they are Qunari regardless of their race because that is their belief, and a Circle Mage would be very different from a mage who is trained to be an Avaar Shaman or a Rivaini Seer, regardless of race based entirely on the culture they grew up in.

 

I don't deny any group should have the right to rule themselves, but mages have long since lost that right based entirely on the disposition of the Knight-Commander in charge of each individual circle.

 

But if we go by the Circles, the mages were promised a level of autonomy when the Nevarran Accord was first signed. They were promised a place where they could freely practice magic and be governed by a council of their own enchanters because the alternative was being glorified janitors for the Chantry or being killed in an exalted march because they peacefully refused to light candles. The Right of Tranquility was meant to be used as a last resort for mages too weak to handle demons and nothing else, and there was no Right of Annulment. Fast forward to Thedas pre-Asunder and you have a system that is far different in all but technicality in form, where mages don't have autonomy because tranquility is used as a bludgeoning instrument of punishment, Annulment used without justification in Kirkwall and Rivain.

Ignoring the question of the Circles, let us focus instead on the fact you're being contradictory here.

You recognize the mage's rights to govern themselves and yet, when the topic is mages governing normals, then suddenly they're just the same. Which is it?

 

Well, regardless of which it is, the fact remains that the people of Thedas have divided themselves into distinct groups, two of them being normal people and mages and that this has been going on since ancient Tevinter, at least. And the fact also is that the South was founded by men fighting to free themselves from magic.

 

As for the war, the mages as a whole didn't go to war. A very small council after the college was attacked by Lambert before any vote of any kind was made, and even then it won by only one vote. Most mages wanted nothing to do with it. And it wasn't even a vote for war, it was a vote to separate from the Chantry because its templars had abandoned their sworn role and duty in guarding mages as well as mundanes. It was the templars who separated from the chantry so they could wipe out the mages or force them back into circles, while the chantry's position was to let the mages be, so in that point of view it was the templars and the seekers, not the mages, who wanted the war.

The mages knowingly provoked the Templars into war with that vote. Both knew the consequences and both are equally guilty in this matter.

 

Of course, some will see the mages ruling themselves as harmless and believe the Templars were in the wrong. Others will see pile of corpses mage freedom leads to and believe the Templars were in the right.

 

 

The Dalish have mages as guides and leaders, but even they are subject to the will of the hahren, the elders of their clans. The Dalish Warden's parents went behind their clans back to bond and one of the parents was a Keeper. 

This is decidedly untrue.

The Dalish Warden's parents were from different clans; his/her father was not keeper of his/her mother meaning he had no authority over her. However, that doesn't mean he didn't have absolute authority over his own clan.

If Alistair can't command Celene's servants, does that mean he is not King of Ferelden?

 

In DA2, Marethari was able to mantain a decision that was unquestionably bad for the clan for seven years. It reached the point where one of the elders you claim has any authority simply packed up and left.

Where is the option for decisions by Keepers to be overturned by members of their clans? If they don't exist, the Dalish live in an authoritarian magocracy.

 

We have no evidence on the Chasind whatosever so you have no ground to make the claim that they are ruled by mages. In fact, there's evidence to the contrary in Mark of the Assassin with that one bodyguard of Prosper's who is a Chasind who breaks the minds of mages, 

http://dragonage.wik...ry:_The_Chasind

 

"They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans like those amongst the Avvars. There are many tales of these shamans having learned their magic."

 

Rivain has mages as spiritual guides and honored advisors, in positions of influence but don't seem to be rulers at all. 

World of Thedas,page 80

"All decisions involving the wellfare of most Rivaini communities rest solely with the eldest women. The most senior of these women are called seers, who freely practice magic."

 

And on your topic of spirit possession of the seers, if you want to make the case that it is irresponsible and dangerous, you'll need to come up with specific examples in the lore or history of thedas that shows the traditions and the very nature of the magic they practice is such that it is what you claim, 

Anders and logic is all I require.

Logic dictates that uniting the mind of an alien entity that pursues an impossible ideal with a single mindlessness focus and who lacks the concept of guilt or time necessary evils and that can be corrupted by powerful emotions to the mind of a person is extremely dangerous. Anders has proved as much.

 

all the existing lore shows the exact opposite because they seem to have far better results in their system than the Circle system, and a better standard of living for its people than Tevinter, which shows they have a system in place that works and it doesn't need the Chantry or the Circles in order to function. 

Only if you accept mages having all the authority. If you do not, as the Circles do not, Rivain is an abject failure.

Also, we don't know anything about their standards of living.

If there is a good reason for this practice, present it. Otherwise, it's irresponsible and capricious. Mages having contact with their families is defensible. Spirit possession for the sake of it is not. 

 

all the existing lore shows the exact opposite because they seem to have far better results in their system than the Circle system, and a better standard of living for its people than Tevinter, which shows they have a system in place that works and it doesn't need the Chantry or the Circles in order to function. 

Only if you accept mages having all the authority. If you do not, as the Circles do not, Rivain is an abject failure.

Also, we don't know anything about their standards of living. 

 

As for the Seekers, they can't be possessed, because they are already touched by a Fade Spirit. And that doesn't eliminate the danger of willingly working with demons like Lucius and the Envy Demon, alongside all his top lieutenants and the entirety of the the templar leadership.

 

Also, Cassandra's apprentice apparently had a demon in him, although it wasn't controlling him, if I remember that bit of dialogue correctly. Immune to mind control and possession, but most certainly not immune to corruption. Apparently that BOOK of Secrets we get from Lucius tells that the Seekers had been corrupt for a great period of time. Cassandra briefly mentions that the Seekers deliberately kept information from the Divine, the one person they answer to, in order to increase their own power and influence alongside them hiding the cure for tranquility. 

No one is immune to corruption but they, at least, don't have a second voice in their heads influencing their actions.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Spirits have emulated or "embodied" people before, without even being aware themselves. The details of the ritual and its results as described, when compared to our current firsthand knowledge of spirit-merging, along with the infliction of Tranquility and its cure, do not add up. Until we get a more in-depth explanation of the Seeker's ritual, I'm going to assume it's more than Cassandra's extremely brief and vague summary.

Who knows what else the Seekers are hiding. I wouldn't be surprised if the Seekers are also rotten in other ways.

[TK514]

Spirits have emulated or "embodied" people before, without even being aware themselves. The details of the ritual and its results as described, when compared to our current firsthand knowledge of spirit-merging, along with the infliction of Tranquility and its cure, do not add up. Until we get a more in-depth explanation of the Seeker's ritual, I'm going to assume it's more than Cassandra's extremely brief and vague summary.

Remind me of someone who has been possessed and not known it.

[dragonflight288]

Remind me of someone who has been possessed and not known it.

 

I don't think he said people were possessed and didn't know it. He said that spirits have emulated people before and didn't realize it, and I think that's a reference to Cole who forgot he was a spirit as he was so caught up in the life of cole, and to such a degree that his very nature was changing into something completely unique. 

[Eliastion]

If there is a good reason for this practice, present it. Otherwise, it's irresponsible and capricious. Mages having contact with their families is defensible. Spirit possession for the sake of it is not.

There is an important thing I noticed. Most of your arguments against practices of Seers treat the as if they were walking around possessed by spirits all the time - but we have no source that would actually confirm that it's the case. The whole Rivaini possession thing seems to stem from this writing of Brother Genitivi:

 
(...)seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to be possessed.

 

Even discarding the possibility of Genitivi misinterpreting something, we don't know how long such possession lasts in these cases nor what exactly is it used for. Though I'd say we have a pretty good idea what benefits can be achieved by contacting spirits embodied in Spirit Healer specialization... And even though those mages don't explicitly get possessed by spirits (though one has to wonder why it's THEM who keep casting those powered-up healing spells if it's not a spirit working through them), we get this description:

 

It should also be noted that the calling of a spirit healer is a dangerous one. Contacting anything beyond the Veil inevitably draws the notice of demons, sometimes very powerful ones. More than one tale exists of a spirit healer being fooled by a demon masquerading as a benevolent spirit, and inadvertently bringing them across the Veil... or being tricked into letting down their guard, and possessed. As such, once a mage becomes a Spirit Healer they must especially heighten their vigilance for the remainder of their lives. It is a calling that not all will gladly suffer

 

Which implies that standard SH practice at least isn't far from actual spirit possession...

Also, from other end of Thedas, we have a different tale of mages allowing spirit possession, this time explicitly only for the duration of ritual where the spirit is required:

 

Neither the Chantry nor the Prophetess means anything to the Avvarians, and Templars are not welcome in the Frostbacks. This is wise, as many of the shamans' rituals would horrify the Chantry. Even mild rites invite spirits to speak through the casters for a time, to say nothing of some of their more powerful ceremonies. The Avvars are well aware that some spirits are reluctant to depart human hosts willingly, but they have means of dealing with such recalcitrant entities. After all, they have no more desire to become abominations than other mages, and so their rituals are specifically designed to force the spirits back out as well.

 

It stands to reason that Seers are relatively similar in this aspect of their practice - after all being one of the oldest magical traditions in Thedas, one centered around spirits, they most definitely are well aware of the danger of the spirit being corrupted after long exposure to a person's more complicated nature. And I think we can agree that finding yourself possessed by spirit-turned-demon isn't a prospect someone would gladly welcome.

 

On the final note, I wanted to address is

 

 

Only if you accept mages having all the authority. If you do not, as the Circles do not, Rivain is an abject failure.

Two things here: if we're talking about system working or not, we can't use the system being not what we expect as argument. You can't say that Democracy works better than absolute monarchy because there is no democracy in monarchy - that's circular reasoning since system being democratic can't be a property proving that democracy is better. When you want to compare systems, you need to find some common ground, some criteria that can be agreed on. Which is also why different enough systems rooted in different cultures are so hard to compare - because it gets tricky to find anything you can compare them by when "system X has no <something>" ceases to be argument because the <something> being a value is itself questioned... Saying that the system isn't working because the mages are in power is about as valid as saying that the system is "an object failure" due to it being a matriarchy.

Second thing I wanted to say is a bit less philosophical. It's not true that in Rivain mages hold all the authority, since the final authority lies with the queen. Therefore the Seers govern - but they do not rule. Also...

All decisions involving the wellfare of most Rivaini communities rest solely with the eldest women. The most senior of these women are called seers, who freely practice magic.

The decisions rest with eldest women, the most senior being the Seer. Apparently the others have a say too - the fact that village elders treat the Seer as the first of them doesn't automatically give the latter full power, as the chairman doesn't have all the authority of the whole board.

[Eliastion]

Remind me of someone who has been possessed and not known it.

Admittedly, I did not read the novel, but didn't Imshael possess Mihris so that the latter were unaware of that for quite some time (despite being a trained mage)?

Though I can be wrong here, since I don't have access to source material...

[TK514]

I don't think he said people were possessed and didn't know it. He said that spirits have emulated people before and didn't realize it, and I think that's a reference to Cole who forgot he was a spirit as he was so caught up in the life of cole, and to such a degree that his very nature was changing into something completely unique.

  

The topic is Seekers being possessed and not knowing it.
 

Admittedly, I did not read the novel, but didn't Imshael possess Mihris so that the latter were unaware of that for quite some time (despite being a trained mage)?
Though I can be wrong here, since I don't have access to source material...

Nope. The 'choice spirit' gave her a choice to either be killed, or to seek vengeance against Michel by letting him ride around in her head. She chose vengeance, and she knew exactly what was going on.

[Helios969]

The "best" is whatever we the player think is best. Period.  For me that varies dependent on the type of character I am roleplaying.  Too bad Mother Giselle isn't an option; some of my characters would have supported her.

 

Also, people shouldn't interpret epilogue slides as "happily ever after."  No choice is static; no matter how good or bad you may think a particular outcome is, it only creates a temporary condition.  In the case of the Divine I'd say as soon as that person passes on everything they implemented will be undermined in a few short years.

[keesio74]

The "best" is whatever we the player think is best. Period.  For me that varies dependent on the type of character I am roleplaying.  Too bad Mother Giselle isn't an option; some of my characters would have supported her.

 

Also, people shouldn't interpret epilogue slides as "happily ever after."  No choice is static; no matter how good or bad you may think a particular outcome is, it only creates a temporary condition.  In the case of the Divine I'd say as soon as that person passes on everything they implemented will be undermined in a few short years.

 

How true! "best" choice/ending depends on what fit the character's best interest

[The Baconer]

Remind me of someone who has been possessed and not known it.

 

It's likely that "possessed" would not even be an accurate term for the phenomenon. On the other hand, of the cured (and temporarily cured) Tranquil we've personally seen, which ones developed permanent, extrinsic powers? Anders and Wynne did gain new powers after taking spirits within their bodies, and on top of that these spirits also made them immune to possession from other entities.

[TK514]

It's likely that "possessed" would not even be an accurate term for the phenomenon. On the other hand, of the cured (and temporarily cured) Tranquil we've personally seen, which ones developed permanent, extrinsic powers? Anders and Wynne did gain new powers after taking spirits within their bodies, and on top of that these spirits also made them immune to possession from other entities.

 

It's an impossible to answer question.  Both of them were mages, while Seeker candidates are not, and neither was in any condition to even consider what changes the process made to them in the long term, what with the being driven almost insane by the cure and begging for death.

[dragonflight288]

It's likely that "possessed" would not even be an accurate term for the phenomenon. On the other hand, of the cured (and temporarily cured) Tranquil we've personally seen, which ones developed permanent, extrinsic powers? Anders and Wynne did gain new powers after taking spirits within their bodies, and on top of that these spirits also made them immune to possession from other entities.

 

Let's not forget the spirit warriors, the warriors who are not mages but form symbiotic relations with spirits, possibly even being possessed themselves, and fighting with the aid of said spirit. 

[TK514]

Let's not forget the spirit warriors, the warriors who are not mages but form symbiotic relations with spirits, possibly even being possessed themselves, and fighting with the aid of said spirit. 

 

And what exactly do Spirit Warriors, or Spirit Healers, have to do with a subject knowing if they are possed by a Spirit of Faith?

[dragonflight288]

And what exactly do Spirit Warriors, or Spirit Healers, have to do with a subject knowing if they are possed by a Spirit of Faith?

 

Because according to the Spirit Healers own spec description, demons sometimes try and pose as benevolent spirits to accept those who sought them, and then force a possession that way. 

 

Spirit Warriors aren't even mages at all, yet their spec description in Awakening makes it clear that they are often mistaken as such by the Chantry or templars. 

 

Seekers are made tranquil, and they are either possessed or a Spirit of Faith is called to touch their mind and give that Seeker extraordinary powers, like immunity to possession and mind control, ability to affect lyrium in someone's blood to varying degrees based on the Seeker, somehow. Yet the Seekers apparently don't get any flak at all for their summoning of spirits or the possibility of allowing themselves to be possessed. And based on the lore we know, that leads to a few questions.

 

1. How do the Seekers summon the specific spirit they want?

2. How do they control it to create the exact circumstances to be what they want it to be?

3. Is the Seeker possessed or not?

4. How do we know that it is, in fact, a Spirit of Faith given the knowledge that demons will sometimes pose as a more benevolent spirit?

[The Baconer]

It's an impossible to answer question.  Both of them were mages, while Seeker candidates are not, and neither was in any condition to even consider what changes the process made to them in the long term, what with the being driven almost insane by the cure and begging for death.

 

It's impossible to answer because the Seekers don't want to come clean on the process, which is also why I will not believe the ritual is as simple as Cassandra describes it, at least until the event that it is confirmed by other sources, like WoT vol. 2.

[Eliastion]

1. How do the Seekers summon the specific spirit they want?

2. How do they control it to create the exact circumstances to be what they want it to be?

3. Is the Seeker possessed or not?

4. How do we know that it is, in fact, a Spirit of Faith given the knowledge that demons will sometimes pose as a more benevolent spirit?

4. At least here I think I can answer - I'd say that this also has a lot to do with tranquility. More specifically, it supposedly requires faith that will withstand emotional deprivation to actually draw the Spirit to the Tranquil - and that's not an easy thing, since we know how Tranquil are mostly invisible to demons. Faith is probably by its very nature (looking outside, seeking the divine) emotion/feeling exceptionally suited to reaching through the veil, apparently allowing even a tranquil to actually draw in the spirit - but, seeing as the participant is tranquil and focused - as only tranquil can be - on his faith, it would be extremely unlikely that anything but a true spirit of Faith could actually find him. I speculate that it's the main point of making him tranquil first - it's a safeguard ensuring that no stray emotions will draw in something nastier.

Though I'm pretty sure that the Seeker really would need extra help to get the spirit really close to let it sense the Vigilant. We are talking a Tranquil trying to call out to a spirit, after all.

 

Either way, back to the subject of being aware - or not - of being possessed. We know that there are mages (true hedge mages with no training whatsoever rather than participants of unacknowledged traditions) who aren't even aware of being mages. As for possession, the moment where possession is apparent is the moment of possession - and for Seekers that moment would be the moment when Vigil is complete, that great single moment of pure faith Cassandra described. What then?

Someone asked here for a single example of someone possessed by a demon and unaware of it, but I couldn't remember one. Then it struck me - there is one example: Connor. It seems that - beyond letting himself be possessed - the child had no idea about what was going on, "losing time" when the demon was taking over. Then, if the Warden makes a deal with the demon, the latter apparently... hides? It seems that Connor is, in fact, still as possessed as ever, with demon just not taking any actions, since - obviously - were he really out, the Connor wouldn't let him back in.

So, as I see it, we have a short period of Connor being possessed and completely unaware of it (with demon finally taking over at some point before being sent to Circle).

Of course, this isn't very strong evidence, seeing that it concerns a child and a demon possibly actively hiding itself while the Faith spirits in case of Seekers would probably lay low but most likely wouldn't try and actively avoid detection.

 

So, in the end, Connor or not, our question still lacks an answer until we get some more info on Tranquility and/or possession...

[thesuperdarkone2]

It's impossible to answer because the Seekers don't want to come clean on the process, which is also why I will not believe the ritual is as simple as Cassandra describes it, at least until the event that it is confirmed by other sources, like WoT vol. 2.

I'm interested to see what WoT vol.2 will give us regarding the Seekers, given that new things are going to be shown such as lands outside of Thedas.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

How does one get this ending with Leliana + Bright Hand ?

[SmilesJA]

There is no "best" ending, it really depends on how your views on the mages and templars. Do you feel that the Circles should remain intact then elect Vivene. Do you like the Templars? Then support Cassandra. Do you want mage freedom? Then Leliana is your girl. Personally each candidate has their strengths and drawbacks, but what's best for the chantry is really up to you.