50 réponses à ce sujet

[CptFalconPunch]

I have no idea what this means.

 

You may wanna reconsider the diamond you posted above is all. I wanted to cutely insult you but I fear you're gonna take it the wrong way.

[cap and gown]

You may wanna reconsider the diamond you posted above is all. I wanted to cutely insult you but I fear you're gonna take it the wrong way.

 

You might want to show where I was wrong.

[egervari]

Garrus and some other teammates tell shepard that the outer colonies won't be enough and they are gonna target Earth (collector ship ""trap"" mission) .

 

The collectors are going to target Earth. Alone. Against the entire galactic fleet or Alliance fleet. When they couldn't even handle a single small ship or AA guns...

Yes, I would have to agree. It's a real shame the whole main plot is a giant mess. I don't know for sure if they would have had to go to earth exactly... maybe just closer into alliance space. But, the game does indicate the collectors could not take on earth. Again, it just reinforces the contradiction of the reapers wanting to invade earth while building this human reaper in the shadows at the same time. Both can't be right, and yet, they exist at the same time in contradiction of each other.

[Vazgen]

Liara tells Aethyta (her father) before the coup that every Cerberus soldier is a reaper slave.

True, but does she mention that Cerberus uses civilians as shock troops? For all we know, they have trained military that is further enhanced with Reaper upgrades. Until EDI explains it on Cronos. When squadmates express shock, it's not about Reaper augmentations, it's about civilians. At least that's how I always perceived that line.

[CptFalconPunch]

I can't abide Drew worship (not saying you do) because I find the plot of ME1 to be non-sensical. Consider: throughout the game we are told the Conduit is the key to bringing the Reapers back. But its not. The Citadel is the key to bringing the Reapers back. The Conduit was merely a way to get to the Citadel. Saren could have gone to the Citadel without ever attacking Eden Prime and finding the Prothean beacon. Why would Sovereign tell him to go find a Prothean beacon in the first place? Sovereign wants to open the Citadel relay. How did the Citadel end of the Conduit show up on the Citadel? Was it there before the invasion? Then why didn't the Reapers/Keepers notice it before they left? Was it taken there after the invasion by a space ship? Why? If they had a space ship to take it there, why bother, since the real point of going to the Citadel was to alter the Keeper control signal? Why did the Protheans send out a signal letting other Protheans know about Ilos? What's important is not Ilos, or the Conduit, but the Citadel. The signal they sent out didn't need to talk about the Conduit, it needed to talk about the Keeper control signal and the fact that the Citadel was a mass relay. Why did every organic civilization set up the seat of their government on a space station they had no idea how to operate? Does the CIA now contract out to North Korea to build its maximum security facilities?

 

I think it is fairly clear that the ME1 story started out with the idea of the ancient alien artifact, the Conduit, and only later was it nailed down what the Conduit was. Or else no one ever bothered to point out the massive plot holes and inconsistencies in the story. Just consider: if Shepard had never gone to Ilos, but remained on the Citadel, she could have stopped him cold before he ever got near the Council chamber. Ilos turns out to be just an exposition dump, a totally illogical exposition dump.

 

Why would the enemy tell shepard the Citadel is a relay which the Reapers come through? Shepard knows about the conduit because that is all he knows. And that is all the viewer knows. The conduit has brought us one step closer to the return of the reapers.

Had Saren told Shepard for any reason, that the Citadel is what it is, then obviously Shepard would have acted differently. But Saren DIDN'T WANT HIM TO KNOW THAT OR ANYONE ELSE.

 

Saren could go on the Citadel, but can't take on the whole Citadel security by himself. Neither he can by bringing some fighters there , because, they won't let him bring them with him. That is why he needed an army to conquer it, and a back door to let the gates open and don't forget, to close them again to deny reinforcements. It's a pretty damn good tactic.

 

Vigil talks about the Relay on the Citadel, the prothean scientists made it by uncovering the secrets of Dark energy manipulation, something that organics of this cycle haven't even done yet. We have no more info than that here, so we can't make further comments on how it was not found. Perhaps it was burried in the lake after the fighting had ended? Who knows.

 

The message at the Beacons was sent to give other survivors hope, and to reach other member of their species. Kind of like how that dude in interstellar did, just to see other humans once again. It's fair  to assume they weren't that phychologically stable after that whole destruction of their entire species thing. 

The messsage was for the Protheans, not us.

 

I have no idea why the Citadel is the center of each galactic goverment, or how Vigil knows that is the case for EVERY civilization before them. Perhaps due to Citadel being Reaper Tech slightly indoctrinates people? That wouldl explain the calmness in Mass effect 2 and 3 for the Reaper threat.

[CptFalconPunch]

Yes, I would have to agree. It's a real shame the whole main plot is a giant mess. I don't know for sure if they would have had to go to earth exactly... maybe just closer into alliance space. But, the game does indicate the collectors could not take on earth. Again, it just reinforces the contradiction of the reapers wanting to invade earth while building this human reaper in the shadows at the same time. Both can't be right, and yet, they exist at the same time in contradiction of each other.

 

Closer to alliance space means having to fight with alliance fleet. They only reason they can do what they do is because there is no protection in the Traverse.

[cap and gown]

Why would the enemy tell shepard the Citadel is a relay which the Reapers come through? Shepard knows about the conduit because that is all he knows. And that is all the viewer knows. The conduit has brought us one step closer to the return of the reapers.

Had Saren told Shepard for any reason, that the Citadel is what it is, then obviously Shepard would have acted differently. But Saren DIDN'T WANT HIM TO KNOW THAT OR ANYONE ELSE.

 

Saren could go on the Citadel, but can't take on the whole Citadel security by himself. Neither he can by bringing some fighters there , because, they won't let him bring them with him. That is why he needed an army to conquer it, and a back door to let the gates open and don't forget, to close them again to deny reinforcements. It's a pretty damn good tactic.

 

Vigil talks about the Relay on the Citadel, the prothean scientists made it by uncovering the secrets of Dark energy manipulation, something that organics of this cycle haven't even done yet. We have no more info than that here, so we can't make further comments on how it was not found. Perhaps it was burried in the lake after the fighting had ended? Who knows.

 

The message at the Beacons was sent to give other survivors hope, and to reach other member of their species. Kind of like how that dude in interstellar did, just to see other humans once again. It's fair  to assume they weren't that phychologically stable after that whole destruction of their entire species thing. 

The messsage was for the Protheans, not us.

 

I have no idea why the Citadel is the center of each galactic goverment, or how Vigil knows that is the case for EVERY civilization before them. Perhaps due to Citadel being Reaper Tech slightly indoctrinates people? That wouldl explain the calmness in Mass effect 2 and 3 for the Reaper threat.

 

You almost completely avoided the points I made.

 

I never said Saren should have told him about the Conduit. I said why did the the Protheans send out a message about the Conduit? The Conduit is just a means of getting to the Citadel. The Citadel is the key. Why didn't their message talk about that?

 

How did the researchers on Ilos get the Cittadel end of the Conduit onto the Citadel? Was it already there before the invasion? Then why didn't the Reapers and/or Keepers notice it? If it was brought there after the invasion it makes even less sense. If the researchers had to fly to the Citadel to install it, then they never needed it at all.

 

Why didn't they destroy this back door onto the Citadel after they arrived there? Did Saren even need a back door? Matriarch Benezia smuggled an entire army of Geth onto Noveria without anyone noticing. If he had simply gone to the Citadel before Eden Prime he wouldn't need an army to back him up because no one would have suspected him of anything. He was a Spectre with the highest level clearances.

 

How does Sovereign know about this Conduit? Why does he care?

 

When I found out the ancient alien artifact we were searching for the entire game simply allowed us to do something that we could have done at the very beginning I face palmed. Surely, the Conduit could have been something more important than a simple transportation device.

[CptFalconPunch]

You almost completely avoided the points I made.

 

I never said Saren should have told him about the Conduit. I said why did the the Protheans send out a message about the Conduit? The Conduit is just a means of getting to the Citadel. The Citadel is the key. Why didn't their message talk about that?

 

How did the researchers on Ilos get the Cittadel end of the Conduit onto the Citadel? Was it already there before the invasion? Then why didn't the Reapers and/or Keepers notice it? If it was brought there after the invasion it makes even less sense. If the researchers had to fly to the Citadel to install it, then they never needed it at all.

 

Why didn't they destroy this back door onto the Citadel after they arrived there? Did Saren even need a back door? Matriarch Benezia smuggled an entire army of Geth onto Noveria without anyone noticing. If he had simply gone to the Citadel before Eden Prime he wouldn't need an army to back him up because no one would have suspected him of anything. He was a Spectre with the highest level clearances.

 

How does Sovereign know about this Conduit? Why does he care?

 

When I found out the ancient alien artifact we were searching for the entire game simply allowed us to do something that we could have done at the very beginning I face palmed. Surely, the Conduit could have been something more important than a simple transportation device.

 

I didn't avoid anything, you just didn't understand.

 

Firstly, the message of the Protheans wasn't about warning the next civilizations, it was a way to communicate to what was left of their species and to give them hope. The Protheans at the citadel, couldn't get back, so they ones on Illos had no idea if they succeded or not. Since Vigil realized they were successful he probably assumed it worked. Even when he gave the programm to Shepard he wasn't sure of its use though. 

 

They worked on it when they started unlocking the secrets of Dark energy manipulation. The reapers probably though it was some monument, as did we when I first saw it in the Presidium. The protheans then used it to transport themselves, by making another on Illos. Research yo.

 

Why would they want to destroy it? Had it been me, I would have worked on it till I died in case I could make it work. 

 

Matriarch Benezia smuggled cargo in Noveria, not the Citadel. The game goes through great lengths to see the corruption going on there, and noone checking anything. Not the case with the Citadel. You can't compare the two.

Having high level clearance doesn't allow you to bring your own personal army. That won't work in the Citadel and it won't work in real life. Just imagine going  in the pentagon with a small army. They.won't.let.you. That is how security works, you're not allowed private armies.

 

How? You have to ask the writers I don't know how he acquired knowledge for sure. The game never tells us. The only thing I can extract is from Vigil, as he said, Sovereign was planning for years upon years.

 

He cares, because it can make his plan work. Obviously.

 

No the conduit was what it was. A backdoor to the citadel. Shepard didn't know, Saren kept him in the dark to stall him. There is nothing wrong about this here. I don't know why you facepalmed but it sounds like a personal issue with the game rather than an objective problem with it

[egervari]

Closer to alliance space means having to fight with alliance fleet. They only reason they can do what they do is because there is no protection in the Traverse.

Yeah. Like I was saying, I really don't even understand the motivation for making a human reaper, especially one that couldn't be completed without an invasion from the reapers, yet the reapers claim they just want to annihilate them. And I dunno... why not just start making the human reaper to preserve the species at the point of annihilation... why bother giving the humans a chance to stop its construction before you arrive. None of it makes any sense. It could have, but it doesn't after the arrival dlc onwards.

[CptFalconPunch]

Yeah. Like I was saying, I really don't even understand the motivation for making a human reaper, especially one that couldn't be completed without an invasion from the reapers, yet the reapers claim they just want to annihilate them. And I dunno... why not just start making the human reaper to preserve the species at the point of annihilation... why bother giving the humans a chance to stop its construction before you arrive. None of it makes any sense. It could have, but it doesn't after the arrival dlc onwards.

 

Hmm, theories that fit evidence...

 

Nope, none. I never even thought about it tbh. Couldn't realize the human reaper plot could get more broken.

 

I don't know, Harbinger does his very best to appear intimidating, how cute. Maybe like the Reapers before wanted to destroy the civilizations but also gather the DNAs? The species fall but their essence is preserved? But yeah, annihilation =/= DNA gathering.

[Autoola]

When I went to the galaxy map to trigger the "joker saves the ship plot development", I had no other missions to do. The only mission left after the IFF mission was the suicide mission - that's it. So, this looks more like the game designers didn't consider the case where the player did all of their missions. When you aggressively finish the missions, this scene makes zero sense.
 

I'm still not sure why (like in the context of ME2 only) the reapers both wanted to destroy and harvest humans. In arrival, there is no talk of harvesting at all - it is all about invasion and the destruction of everything. And in ME3, it just follows the attitude of the reapers from the Arrival dlc.

 

The human reaper was only supposed to require a few million humans. This may seem like a lot, but I would have to imagine that the earth - at this time - they would have a population of 50 or 100 billion humans. To harvest the species, I don't think they would have to go to earth. Surely there's humans elsewhere in the galaxy. And as was stated, the collectors couldn't take on earth anyway.

 

Still, there is this major contradiction in ME2 that both wants to make a human reaper - because humans/Sherpard are special - and also destroy humanity. I believe the contradiction can't really exist. I don't buy the reasoning that they want to destroy everything but make reapers to preserve the civilizations without cause.

If you go to the galaxy map, you want to go somewhere. Ok, not necessary to a mission, but perhaps to the Citadel/Omega/etc. I don´t think that you just want to sit on your Ship waiting for the IFF to be installed and tested. But if you don´t like the JSTSP, it´s okay.

Why is it a contradiction to build a Reaper and to destroy humanity? Let´s say they just want to have a giant human statue (with 3 eyes ) as a souvenir (which isn´t the case). They don´t need the others and just kill them. And in ME3 is an explanation (syn-org-conflict), even if this reason isn´t very good.

 

Yeah. Like I was saying, 1. I really don't even understand the motivation for making a human reaper, 2. especially one that couldn't be completed without an invasion from the reapers, 3. yet the reapers claim they just want to annihilate them. And I dunno... 4. why not just start making the human reaper to preserve the species at the point of annihilation... 5. why bother giving the humans a chance to stop its construction before you arrive. None of it makes any sense. It could have, but it doesn't after the arrival dlc onwards.

1. Humans are the choosen species. They always make a Reaper in each cycle. And the human Reaper is "work in progress". Perhaps it will look like the other Reapers when it is finished.

2. The invasion is a fact. They always invade. Why should they act in this cycle not the same way as ever?

3. What´s the problem?

4. Good question. Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today.   They are already late. The cycle should start two years ago, so perhaps they are in a hurry.

5. Well. You have to use the Omega 4 Relay to get to the human Reaper. No ship ever could pass the relay. So I guess the Reapers/Collectors have thought it would be a safe place.

Maybe like the Reapers before wanted to destroy the civilizations but also gather the DNAs? The species fall but their essence is preserved?

That´s it.

 

I have more problems with Collectors being Protheans. Vigil says on Ilos that the Reaper slaves are left behind starving to death. And as far as we know Reaper slaves are brainless death machines or something like that. But the Collectors are intelligent and still alive. How did they manage to survive 50.000 years? Reapers can´t reproduce. And Harbinger assumes direct control of the Collector General which assumes direct control of individual Collectors?

[CptFalconPunch]

 

I have more problems with Collectors being Protheans. Vigil says on Ilos that the Reaper slaves are left behind starving to death. And as far as we know Reaper slaves are brainless death machines or something like that. But the Collectors are intelligent and still alive. How did they manage to survive 50.000 years? Reapers can´t reproduce. And Harbinger assumes direct control of the Collector General which assumes direct control of individual Collectors?

 

I guess the reapers decided to save some of the Protheans for their collection and repurpose their DNA as they saw fit. They then used space magic to control them from afar and create Scions, Praetorians oh god I can't do this anymore...

[Vazgen]

Isn't it stated that the Collectors are cloned?

[CptFalconPunch]

Isn't it stated that the Collectors are cloned?

 

According to the wikia the only thing "clone" search gives is that the collectors are a bit more than clones. Not actual clones. Get thorian'd.

[capn233]

A lot going on in this thread, but I will just start by saying ME2 is still my favorite of the 3 games.

 

***

 

"Isn't it stated that the Collectors are cloned?"

 

I don't think so.  Mordin's rant on the Collectors would be a good place to start though.  They are basically advanced husks.

 

Vigil also isn't omniscient, so predicting that mindless Prothean husks would have starved to death isn't necessarily inconsistent with the Reapers taking a population of them for their own uses.

 

***

 

Conduit was covered already, and although not explicitly stated, it is more than probable that the "relay monument" was on the Citadel before the invasion.  As for whether the Reapers knew about it, at some point they obviously did.  Which is why Sovereign is looking for the other end of it in the first game.  They do not spell out when the Reapers first learn about its function.  It is plausible that when they took the Citadel they knew exactly what it was, but did not know where the other side was.  Vigil makes it clear that the project was not in their records on the Citadel, which is why the Illos facility was unknown to the Reapers during that cycle.  They may have looked for it as they wiped out the Protheans, and when they didn't find it, tasked Sovereign to look for it.

 

If you believe the Reapers did not know that the mini relay was functional when they took the Citadel, then the alternative plausible hypothesis is that they learned about it when an agent (probably Saren) interfaced with a Prothean beacon.

 

In any case, we know that the beacons were for Prothean minds, and most beacons were damaged with time, which is why you needed the information from several beacons, along with with the Thorian's "prothean memories" to be able to decipher the actual location of the Conduit.

 

***

 

Cerberus isn't retconned by much in the second game.  Other than mislabeling them as terrorists of course.  They were indeed a ruthless organization in the first game, and are more or less the same in the second game.  Of course in the first game they are really still characterized part of the Alliance, just slightly "rogue."  They aren't particularly more ruthless than the Citadel's own little black ops group, the Spectres.

 

Cerberus's misdeeds still are present in ME2.  Jack's story, Overlord, the references to "Ascension" in Tali's mission.

 

***

 

Whether or not ME2 advances the "Reaper plot" is of course in the eye of the beholder.  I find it interesting when people complain about how ME2 invalidated the plot of ME1, and at the same time wish that ME2 focused more on "stopping the Reapers."  If anything could weaken the plot of ME1, it would be allowing the Reapers a quick way into the MWG bypassing the Citadel relay... aka the plot of ME3 and its bridging DLC (Arrival).

 

In the ME2 story that was actually presented, you end up fighting Reaper proxies who are killing more humans than Saren and the Geth did in the first game.  But because people didn't like the Collectors as much as the Geth and Saren as proxies, it wasn't a mission worth doing apparently.

 

As far as why they are building a human reaper, that is not explained in the second game.  EDI speculates.  Who knows?  ME3 did a poor job of explaining the reasoning, but that is an ME3 problem.  As far as its shape goes, that was purely a gameplay conceit.  They wanted a weird boss fight at the end.  That is one of the few areas where I agree criticism is actually warranted.

 

Usually critics of the Collector plot think that ME2 should have been spent running around the galaxy finding tech or evidence of the Reapers or some other nebulous busy work sort of manner.  I have no idea if that would work out.  That outline could work, or it could be terrible since it is all in the execution.  The first issue to iron out is whether or not you would have the Council and the Alliance actually take the threat seriously.  If they don't, then you wouldn't get that mission unless you use a plot device to get Shepard to work for someone who cares about the Reapers... like TIM.

[Frostmourne86]

Didn't Dean_the_Young make a thread a long time ago where he(?) figured out a way to switch the second game with the first, making it where the newly instated Spectre Shepard joins up with the SA Spec/Black Ops group Cerberus to find out why human colonies are vanishing, uncovering the Collectors and the shadowy puppet masters, ending with the Collector Base and continuing in the second with stopping Saren?

[KrrKs]

Isn't it stated that the Collectors are cloned?

I believe so, too.

Even if it isn't stated directly; the found of a dead collector on the DCS, whose DNA comes from a 'colony in the Styx-Theta cluster' (as said by EDI) but is heavily genetically modified, with e.g, 3 less chromosomes, etc., is a pretty strong indicator that the entire race consists only of modified clones.

[CptFalconPunch]

 

Whether or not ME2 advances the "Reaper plot" is of course in the eye of the beholder.

 

  I find it interesting when people complain about how ME2 invalidated the plot of ME1, and at the same time wish that ME2 focused more on "stopping the Reapers."  If anything could weaken the plot of ME1, it would be allowing the Reapers a quick way into the MWG bypassing the Citadel relay... aka the plot of ME3 and its bridging DLC (Arrival).

 

In the ME2 story that was actually presented, you end up fighting Reaper proxies who are killing more humans than Saren and the Geth did in the first game.  But because people didn't like the Collectors as much as the Geth and Saren as proxies, it wasn't a mission worth doing apparently.

 

As far as why they are building a human reaper, that is not explained in the second game.  EDI speculates.  Who knows?  ME3 did a poor job of explaining the reasoning, but that is an ME3 problem.  As far as its shape goes, that was purely a gameplay conceit.  They wanted a weird boss fight at the end.  That is one of the few areas where I agree criticism is actually warranted.

 

Usually critics of the Collector plot think that ME2 should have been spent running around the galaxy finding tech or evidence of the Reapers or some other nebulous busy work sort of manner.  I have no idea if that would work out.  That outline could work, or it could be terrible since it is all in the execution.  The first issue to iron out is whether or not you would have the Council and the Alliance actually take the threat seriously.  If they don't, then you wouldn't get that mission unless you use a plot device to get Shepard to work for someone who cares about the Reapers... like TIM.

 

 

Objectively, everything is in the eyes of the beholder. As scientists say, each person sees a "different colour" when pointed at the same one. That doesn't however mean that one should say stupid stuff without being called out. 

 

1st mistake.

 

Mass effect 2, without the Arrival DLC shows the reapers bypassing the Citadel relay plot, by showing them outside of our galaxy, closing in.

 

2nd mistake.

 

The collector mission wasn't worth doing because, putting it next to the annihilation of all advanced organic life means absolutely nothing. The handling of the reaper threat in ME1 is something that doesn't leave time for huge extra side quests.

 

3rd mistake

 

The collector mission wasn't worth doing because you can destroy the collector base, effectively excluding it as a way stop the reapers, and the inability to acquire it for the alliance/good guys and improve technology, as we did with javelin cannons. You remember? Those that destroyed the collector ship no sweat in 2 shots in the most climactic moment in the game? Greatest threat in the galaxy yo.

 

4th mistake

 

A game's story should be complete on its own. Just because you like mass effect 2 but it did a poor job in the plot/story, doesn't mean you should point out fingers at the next game for not salvaging it somehow. Nothing like that in ME1 happened and it shouldn't have happened here.

Even if the human reaper was relevant, the handling of the plot makes it so that it won't be completed without striking earth. I shouldn't explain why this is retarded.

 

Its always in the execution. And ME2 was as worse as it could get. As it stands, ME2 holds the most irrelevant, nonexistent plot in the trilogy. In order for it to work everyone becomes an idiot. The council, the squadmates, shepard, TIM, the collectors, the alliance, council fleets, etc

 

Don't let emotion get in front of logical thinking. I also like mass effect 2, it has always been installed on my PC and still play it today, but pretending isn't gonna do anything good.

[sjsharp2011]

tbh I just think of it the same way EDI explains it in that it's the Reapers way of reproduction. They take organic beings and turn them into reapers

[Autoola]

I believe so, too.

Even if it isn't stated directly; the found of a dead collector on the DCS, whose DNA comes from a 'colony in the Styx-Theta cluster' (as said by EDI) but is heavily genetically modified, with e.g, 3 less chromosomes, etc., is a pretty strong indicator that the entire race consists only of modified clones.

Interesting. Thought they changed them in the same way like they turned humans into husks, turians into marauders etc. Made the protheans to something useful to them. Is cloning even a theme in MEU (not regarding Citadel DLC)?

 

*edit*

Have forgotten the kakliosaur = clone. So, cloning is a theme. But I still don´t get it why the Reapers would clone thousands of collectors over 50.000 years to have some slaves (concerning the life span of a collector). Why not simply indoctrinate some organics in this cycle?

Modifié par Autoola, 29 janvier 2015 - 08:28 .

[capn233]

Objectively, everything is in the eyes of the beholder. As scientists say, each person sees a "different colour" when pointed at the same one. That doesn't however mean that one should say stupid stuff without being called out.

 

Your whole post was incorrect, but the fact that it was prefaced by this bit did make it more amusing.

[CptFalconPunch]

Your whole post was incorrect, but the fact that it was prefaced by this bit did make it more amusing.

 

Oh yeah, burn, sad me, how will I ever live through it.

 

 As long as your don't post anything constructive, or at least a counter argument, your opinion is of absolutely no value. Sorry that you felt insulted, I wanted to talk constructively not receive immature responses.

 

At least cap and gown responded with silence. 

[capn233]

Oh yeah, burn, sad me, how will I ever live through it.
 
 As long as your don't post anything constructive, or at least a counter argument, your opinion is of absolutely no value. Sorry that you felt insulted, I wanted to talk constructively not receive immature responses.
 
At least cap and gown responded with silence.

 
I don't know what "posting anything constructive" has to do with anything in this context, nevermind that it is disingenuous for you to claim that you are interested in a discussion instead of "immature responses" when your posts are filled with them (eg. "head cannon [sic] to the max," "cutely insult," "post stupid stuff and not get called out").
 
There is largely little value in getting into an argument with the "ME2's plot was stupid!" crowd.  But if you want me to deconstruct your previous post, I suppose I will oblige you this once.

 
"Objectively, everything is in the eyes of the beholder."
 
You start off with this statement, which is interesting until you consider the definition of objective and subjective.

 
"As scientists say, each person sees a "different colour" when pointed at the same one."

Scientists don't actually say this.  And it would not be a particularly meaningful statement if they did.  Whether or not one person perceives a color exactly the same as another person may be interesting to think about physiologically, but is not a lesson in objectivity whatsoever.  It is even less material considering the fact that one person can never experience another person's consciousness to see a different shade of blue, for example.  In any case, this did end the amusing part of your previous post.

 
"That doesn't however mean that one should say stupid stuff without being called out."

So this must be the part where you go with an immature response, despite the fact that you do not want to receive them.

 

"1st mistake... etc"

Posting in this form makes your reply appear condescending.  Although I am of course not naive enough to believe that this was not the tone you wanted to present.  But it does hurt the credibility of future claims that you are interested in "talking constructively."

 

"Mass effect 2, without the Arrival DLC shows the reapers bypassing the Citadel relay plot, by showing them outside of our galaxy, closing in."
 
You are of course referring to the final couple of seconds showing Reapers outside of the Milky Way.

That's actually all it shows, Reapers at a significant distance from the Milky Way.  Considering that Harbinger is 2km long and the Milky Way is 9.46x10^17 km across who knows if they would make it into the MWG in any current character's lifetime.

Of course if you want to criticize the scene for taking too much dramatic license with relative sizes or distances than I am sure you could do so.
 
Any invalidation of ME1's plot occurred when they planned to make the Reaper's present in the galaxy in ME3, which was a plan they hatched before Arrival came out, and perhaps during ME2's development.  Although I would imagine it would have been extremely late in development of ME2 since the main game has nothing to do with the Reapers attempting to bypass the Citadel relay plot by flying into the MWG.
 
Where there was a failing was elucidating the purpose of the human reaper, and kicking the can down the road to ME3.  That is a valid criticism, but this is actually a small part of the narrative.  However, it could be explained in many different ways, some of which may have been more satisfying than the explanations we got in ME3, or EDI's speculations in ME2.

 
"The collector mission wasn't worth doing because, putting it next to the annihilation of all advanced organic life means absolutely nothing. The handling of the reaper threat in ME1 is something that doesn't leave time for huge extra side quests."
 
All advanced organic life is not at risk for imminent annihilation in the time frame of ME2, unless you are criticizing with knowledge you gained from Arrival to ME3.  if they are then the plot of ME1, by and large, is immediately invalidated.  At least using the same logic as most ME2 critics use.
 
In any case, I fail to see how you can draw the conclusion from ME1 that there wasn't time for huge extra sidequests.  In that game or afterwards.  For all you know in ME1 the Reapers are trapped in dark-space, and they are still trapped in dark-space in the time of ME2... except that they had different proxies (the Collectors) who were not known to the player in ME1.
 
This is usually the part of the discussion where the "vague outline for a grand fetch quest plot" is introduced by those that did not like ME2's plot.  Nevermind that the grand fetch quest plot would have even lower in game stakes than the actual Collector plot.  It would come down to the Reaper menace in the background.
 
These proposals did get a lot of bandwagon support from other players who did not like the plot of ME2, despite the fact that they aren't fleshed out and are the barest of outlines.  This is likely because people imagine whatever scenarios to fill in the blanks that would fit their own personal rule of cool, and so obviously that sort of story would have been superior to the shipped game.

 
"The collector mission wasn't worth doing because you can destroy the collector base, effectively excluding it as a way stop the reapers, and the inability to acquire it for the alliance/good guys and improve technology, as we did with javelin cannons. You remember? Those that destroyed the collector ship no sweat in 2 shots in the most climactic moment in the game? Greatest threat in the galaxy yo."

You can choose to save the base.  Saying it wasn't worth doing because you have the choice to destroy the base is an odd way of looking at it.  In either case, the Collectors will cease to be a threat, which is why you can do either and complete the game.
 
I don't remember the javelin cannons because there is no such thing in Mass Effect 1, 2 or 3.  The Thanix upgrade was largely a game mechanic rather than a plot point in ME2.

 

"A game's story should be complete on its own. Just because you like mass effect 2 but it did a poor job in the plot/story, doesn't mean you should point out fingers at the next game for not salvaging it somehow. Nothing like that in ME1 happened and it shouldn't have happened here."

The first statement is accurate, the game should be able to stand on its own. ME2 does stand on its own, but you were really responding to a section about the motivation for constructing a human reaper, which isn't fully explained in ME2.  Of course, many things were not remotely explained in ME1, and critics like yourself seem to conveniently ignore this fact when making statements of this kind.
 
You also seem to be confusing a response about one thing that was unexplained in ME2 and not satisfactorily explained in ME3 as me making a statement that ME2 needed ME3 to fix it.  I never made any statement of the kind.

 

"Even if the human reaper was relevant, the handling of the plot makes it so that it won't be completed without striking earth. I shouldn't explain why this is retarded."

This is essentially head canon on your part, taking speculation of random crew members as fact.  I agree that the notion of attacking Earth by themselves seems silly.  Unfortunately we do not actually have any real information on how many people it will actually take to complete the reaper, nor do we have information on the total population of the Alliance, or more specifically the number of colonists in lightly defended areas.  The codex only indirectly makes a comment about total population in the entry about the low percentage that serve in the military.  They may not have needed to "target Earth," and in any case this is not a central plot point to ME2.
 
"Its always in the execution. And ME2 was as worse as it could get. As it stands, ME2 holds the most irrelevant, nonexistent plot in the trilogy."
 
Part opinion, then statement that is demonstrably false.  ME2's plot isn't any more irrelevant than ME1's.  If they could have flown to the galaxy by the time of ME3, there was little point in risking failure and discovery with the Saren and Geth plot.

"In order for it to work everyone becomes an idiot. The council, the squadmates, shepard, TIM, the collectors, the alliance, council fleets, etc"

I hesitate to even label this bit as a criticism, but whatever it happens to be, it is invalid.

For all the ire the council draws in ME2, it is more logically consistent with the council from ME1 that they do not believe in the Reaper threat given the extreme lack of evidence.  The "Reaper trap" only works because there is basically no evidence to find.

[sjsharp2011]

Isn't it stated that the Collectors are cloned?

Yes I believe Mordin mentions this during one of your conversations in the lab

[sjsharp2011]

I think the whole bit about the conduit was intentionally vague, to throw the audience off track. And, to be honest, there's 50,000 years of lost history... and the game makes several mentions that not a lot of proof of what happened 50,000 years ago exists. So, things are bound to be misunderstood. Yes, it was confusing, and it's technically wrong - but there's no reason to believe that characters - like Saren - are telling the truth about such things. They may think they understand and are telling the truth, but it doesn't mean it *is* the truth.
 
As for why Saren couldn't bring the reapers back from the citadel before eden prime - the game actually explained this. The keepers evolved and stopped obeying the reapers, so they wouldn't let it happen. That is why they had to find another way. Maybe it's not the best reason, but at least the game was aware of it and addressed it. That's more than can be said about some of the stuff in ME2 and ME3

Actually that's not strictly true about the keepers they were reprogrammed by the Protheans before they were wiped out. They did this by changing the signals that the Citadel sends out. That's why Sovereign couldn't activate the Citadel relay to start the next invasion. This is why he turned to Saren as he needed to figure out what the Protheans did in order to try to reverse it. as Sovereign was clearly as much in the dark as Shepard was when it came to what was going on that was why Shepard had to go to those various places to try to put the pieces together before Sovereign did.