510 réponses à ce sujet

[Terodil]

He had no real "I'll give you the power of a blood mage" in exchange for the soul of a child. "let me live and you'll never deal with me again!". Your reward for letting him off the hook? Not killing him and taking all the things he would have given you if you did kill him.

 

Very much spot-on, Vargh.

 

 

What I would have liked would be a better reward for doing something terrible. I like that Michel can die, but I want something that would actually tempt the player beyond simply having whatever drama comes with the death. Give me a special power or a unique class-specific weapon, maybe lots of gold, like that demon in the Asunder quest.

 

Also, this.

 

In fact, the reason why I'm so sad desire demons are gone is that they are the most insidious and the only thought-provoking demons (if written well, that is). Rage, Terror, Despair, etc. are all the 'hit it with a stick until it dies' type of enemy. They're okay for a while as a loot pinata, but they get boring very, very fast.

 

Desire demons... now we're talking. They (should) tempt, make you doubt, agonise over your choice. That is their power. The (almost complete) removal of the desire demon is probably the strongest indicator for how little Bioware cared about their writing, if they even still have the ability to create such scenarios to begin with.

 

Also @Emperor Shepard: Well, the Asunder demon was great; but others were at least on par. The demon in Redcliffe, tempting the mage protagonist with the promise of blood magic; the demon possessing Feynriel (okay, that was Torpor, but IMO that is almost a misnomer), promising power (if memory serves, that was a permanent attribute increase); or Kitty in Honnleath with a whole slew of possible outcomes (the Shale DLC had 'awesome' written all over it anyway).

 

Edit: And eh... while I agree that the presence or absence of boobs, whether fully clad, umbrella-'clad' or unclad, is not an issue in the make-or-break-a-desire-demon sense, I do think that fusing an otherworldly beauty with distinct demonic features is a brilliant and interesting element. Since it stands to reason that desire demons would assume whatever form they sense the protagonist would be most attracted to, maybe we do need a 'romantic interest switch' at the start of the game: Straight, bi, gay, and the desire demons would then assume either male or female forms. <--- Yes please.

 

Edit: Typos.

[TheOgre]

I don't really care what he looks like, I would have just liked better options. Personally I never really cared much about the desire demons in the past games. I don't recall any of them ever really offering the PC anything worthwhile. The most interesting instance, to me, was when the desire demon made Isabela attack Hawke in the Fade. There was that Templar in the Circle in DA:O, but all's I can say is "meh", it was just some creepy thing that turned him into a mini boss.

 

What I would have liked would be a better reward for doing something terrible. I like that Michel can die, but I want something that would actually tempt the player beyond simply having whatever drama comes with the death. Give me a special power or a unique class-specific weapon, maybe lots of gold, like that demon in the Asunder quest.

 

You could become a bloodmage if you sacrificed the child in the fade. The other one was more of a moral choice likened to, "Would you hit your mother or have.." well you get where that's going. She tells you essentially, "kill me and you rob him of his illusion made family, let me go" and he stays as a mind controlled templar for the rest of the days. I'm not disagreeing with you but those were far darker options than what we got with Imshael.

[TheOgre]

Very much spot-on, Vargh.

 

 

 

Also, this.

 

In fact, the reason why I'm so sad desire demons are gone is that they are the most insidious and the only throught-provoking demons (if written well, that is). Rage, Terror, Despair, etc. are all the 'hit it with a stick until it dies' type of enemy. They're okay for a while as a loot pinata, but they get boring very, very fast.

 

Desire demons... now we're talking. They (should) tempt, make you doubt, agonise over your choice. That is their power. The (almost complete) removal of the desire demon is probably the strongest indicator for how little Bioware cared about their writing, if they even still have the ability to create such scenarios to begin with.

 

Also @Emperor Shepard: well, the Asunder demon was great; but others were at least on par. The demon in Redcliffe, tempting the mage protagonist with the promise of blood magic; the demon possessing Feynriel (okay, that was Torpor, but IMO that is almost a misnomer), promising power (if memory serves, that was a permanent attribute increase); or Kitty in Honnleath with a whole slew of possible outcomes (the Shale DLC had 'awesome' written all over it anyway).

 

Edit: And eh... while I agree that the presence or absence of boobs, whether fully clad, umbrella-'clad' or unclad, is not necessary in the make-or-break-a-desire-demon sense, I do think that fusing an otherworldly beauty with distinct demonic features is a brilliant and interesting element. Since it stands to reason that desire demons would assume whatever form they sense the protagonist would be most attracted to, maybe we do need a 'romantic interest switch' at the start of the game: Straight, bi, gay, and the desire demons would then assume either a male or a female form. <--- Yes please.

 

This right here, it's too true. I don't need the "boobies". There are other ways to make a demon "desirable" for the character. Something desirable to the CHARACTER. It'd be hard, and possibly never happening, but I'd like it so much more if I had that option. We already have our amazing compassion spirit.The golem from first game. Before the naysayers jump on this. It's just ONE option I'd like.

[Terodil]

I suddenly thought of Morinth again. Now obviously that is an entirely different universe, but the game practically descibes her with the same attributes DA gives to the desire demons. That character was brilliant, and the temptation was awesome. Not everybody may have experienced this, but if you helped Morinth (kill her mother Samara), and later continued romancing her (which was a bit stunted, I admit), then post-suicide mission you could take her up on her promise. It was glorious to see the 'Critical mission failure' screen come up.

[papercut_ninja]

It's about  "holy crap, most rpgs don't have stuff this messed up" which, when origins came out, sort of set it apart... a gritty kind of world with awesome characterization and story.

Dark, but amazing.

 

Name one that doesn't...

 

Fallout, Vampire, Planescape, Darklands all did dark and gritty long before Dragon Age...add to that all sorts of fps, science fiction, action, horror and adventure games that also incorporate dark elements and I can't really see where you get any sort of "shock" factor from DA:O, unless it was one of the first games you ever played after Mario Kart...

[Terodil]

It's not (just) shock, more importantly it's variety and interest (at least for me). Variety requires light and dark. DA:I has an overwhelming amount of (light) grey. It tastes like potato mush. Lots of potato mush.

 

Edit: Just because you mentioned Vampires:

 

 

"No, you stop!"

[papercut_ninja]

It's not shock, it's variety and interest (at least for me). Variety requires light and dark. DA:I has an overwhelming amount of (light) grey. It tastes like potato mush. Lots of potato mush.

 

 

...but if they re-use the same plot patterns, choices and characterization from DA:O...that's not really variety is it?

[Terodil]

...but if they re-use the same plot patterns, choices and characterization from DA:O...that's not really variety is it?

Eh? Apples and oranges. I was talking about variety in the game we are currently discussing. Not cross-games.
 
Unless, of course, you want to open a debate on innovative story telling as a whole. I would welcome such discussion, but I'm not sure that it'd belong in this thread.

Edit/PS: BTW, who ever said something about simply copying previous encounters with desire demons? My whole point above was quite clearly about them provoking thought and adding an element beyond the simplistic hack-and-slay to the game. Simple copies would evidently not be able to do that, and tbh, despite how much I feel BW failed with DA:I, I'd still expect them to go beyond mere copies. How you could think otherwise is beyond me atm.

[TheOgre]

Name one that doesn't...

 

Fallout, Vampire, Planescape, Darklands all did dark and gritty long before Dragon Age...add to that all sorts of fps, science fiction, action, horror and adventure games that also incorporate dark elements and I can't really see where you get any sort of "shock" factor from DA:O, unless it was one of the first games you ever played after Mario Kart...

 

True, very true...

 

But cmon, do you really like the  position of DAI? We just made an argument about our decisions being more varied and mental hoops. I've seen some of your ideas and they were unique at least to the dragon age universe. I would have liked some of them, even if you were joking about them. 

 

What I saw in DAI? There were some unique choices, but, not.. You can argue it's nostalgia but I felt my decisions were a lot more hard in DA:O or a lot more detailed. One example came from the desire demons. I can name even more if I went to actually replay them. Just looking at the dragon age keep, deep roads is one with the golem army. Yeah, morally terrible choice, but you could use that power for fighting the the archdemon. 

[Rawgrim]

Name one that doesn't...

 

Fallout, Vampire, Planescape, Darklands all did dark and gritty long before Dragon Age...add to that all sorts of fps, science fiction, action, horror and adventure games that also incorporate dark elements and I can't really see where you get any sort of "shock" factor from DA:O, unless it was one of the first games you ever played after Mario Kart...

 

I felt the Hespith's poem and the reveal of the Brood-mother had some damn eerie "shock-value" to it. That bit stands out, anyway.

[Deadaimhavock]

i agree about desire demons needing to return the are like the crossroads demons of dragon age and are a perfect rep for temptation, but as far as brood mothers go, there is no reason for them unless they make a deep roads dlc or something.

[papercut_ninja]

True, very true...

 

But cmon, do you really like the  position of DAI? We just made an argument about our decisions being more varied and mental hoops. I've seen some of your ideas and they were unique at least to the dragon age universe. I would have liked some of them, even if you were joking about them. 

 

What I saw in DAI? There were some unique choices, but, not.. You can argue it's nostalgia but I felt my decisions were a lot more hard in DA:O or a lot more detailed. One example came from the desire demons. I can name even more if I went to actually replay them. Just looking at the dragon age keep, deep roads is one with the golem army. Yeah, morally terrible choice, but you could use that power for fighting the the archdemon. 

 

I am not really looking for horror, film noir or erotica in Dragon Age, so even though I do enjoy all those genres on their own, I am not overly concerned about their omittance in DAI.

 

As far as interesting choices go, there were good examples and there were bad ones in DA:O and I don't think it was entirely down to the moral polarity of the choices, but personal connection and investment played a big part in that too. Some moral choices were good, others were more or less like choosing between being a complete a**hole in front of everyone or use half your brain to at least pretend to have some common sense. Of course some of the good approaches and writing from DA:O certainly wouldn't hurt DAI...
 

[papercut_ninja]

I felt the Hespith's poem and the reveal of the Brood-mother had some damn eerie "shock-value" to it. That bit stands out, anyway.

 

It was a bit of hit and miss though...it starts off eerie, but just turned into beat the crap out of big blob monster...

 

The orphanage had the same issue...builds up atmosphere and mystery...and then just turns into slaying mobs of monsters...

 

Ideas were good, but not well executed in the end.

[TheOgre]

I am not really looking for horror, film noir or erotica in Dragon Age, so even though I do enjoy all those genres on their own, I am not overly concerned about their omittance in DAI.

 

As far as interesting choices go, there were good examples and there were bad ones in DA:O and I don't think it was entirely down to the moral polarity of the choices, but personal connection and investment played a big part in that too. Some moral choices were good, others were more or less like choosing between being a complete a**hole in front of everyone or use half your brain to at least pretend to have some common sense. Of course some of the good approaches and writing from DA:O certainly wouldn't hurt DAI...
 

 

Fair enough honestly, it's just something I came to expect with the Dragon Age so I indeed did want that in my game. Different strokes I guess..

 

I think I said this already too -- I felt connected to my Grey Warden because of the prologue, and what happened at Ostagar. It did impact his decisions (for my character) I chose to spare the desire demon. I also executed Loghain for his betrayal (although, rightfully so many might think that he's a hero for his call at Ostagar). I wanted more questionable enemies, Samson was not hero, Calpernia was a blind fool tricked (still a better character than Samson..)

 

That's just for me though, and I'm possibly in the minority so I can't ever speak for the masses.

[berelinde]

You do realise the Spirit of Choice in DAI is part of the forbidden ones yes?

 

Regardless of ****** or not, it's still rather badass.

Good point.

 

Lemme see. In DAO, we killed Kagnax Gaxkang. In DA2, we killed that X thing with too many consonants, most of which were K. Now, Imshael. Are there any Forbidden Ones left?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Good point.

 

Lemme see. In DAO, we killed Kagnax Gaxkang. In DA2, we killed that X thing with too many consonants, most of which were K. Now, Imshael. Are there any Forbidden Ones left?

Yes, there is one left. The Formless One. I believe it is the most powerful of the Forbidden Ones. 

[Terodil]

Yes, there is one left. The Formless One. I believe it is the most powerful of the Forbidden Ones.

 
Oh him.
 

[Monica83]

When rpg falls from dark themed to Politically correct is always a shame....

 

I always loved the concept of desire demon it was tempting, seductive and that was the most dangerous part about it... It appears as a naked female figure? What is the problem? 

Prude person complain about it?... well i am certain most of this persons have not problem to watch series like game of thrones where they shovel unnecessary sex and breast scene so much....

But hey game of thrones is a tv show... is not a videogame... In videogame no one complain about blood,gore,mutilation,evisceration people buried alive and exploding corpses but if they see a pair of breast: OMG scandal!!!!!!!!!

 

That is the weird mentality i dislike... As i dislike unnecessary censorship and force things to become politically correct... 

 

I am much more offended when a character in game tend to have a Iconic homosexual look... and of course i have nothing aganist homosexuality (i am bisexual) but i dislike how some characters are handled in this game.. Not going to give example simple because there is who like those characters and i am not taking the risk to upset the ones who liked them...

 

Maturity is not about breast is about develop something and don't be scared about show off strong contents,, It can be nudity.. It can be violence.. It can be even deep phylosofic  storytelling or scary one...

 

I had impression Inquisition handled this in the bad way... Seems too much politically correct in some things...

 

Do inquisition feels mature? No not at all...

 

On my opinion even some romances are handled like teens love story....

 

So instead of the dangerous desire demon we have a human like one tempting and charming at the point when i meet him i just rolled my eyes...

[TheOgre]

-snip-

 

So instead of the dangerous desire demon we have a human like one tempting and charming at the point when i meet him i just rolled my eyes...

 

I share your sentiments on how, generic, I thought Imshael was in design. The only redeeming quality i'd have for him is the brief, "Choice, spirit". correcting you even before battle. I did not like his design at all in both combat and in "choices" as again, you could negate all the choices just by killing him and reaping the moral victory / rewards all the same. 

 

With that said.. If we had a unique design for him, I wouldn't mind so much, a unique battle too or something of that sort. 

[DanteYoda]

I miss Desire Demons too, they were you know ...Desirable and they reminded me of Slaanesh Demons from Warhammer.

 

http://fc05.devianta...ias-d4klttz.jpg

 

 

I really think they should bring back Desire demons in their female forms. The game needs them.

I'd like one as a companion in the party, maybe as DLC, imagine the dialogs and dramas i'd love that.

 

And the romance opportunity...

[papercut_ninja]

When rpg falls from dark themed to Politically correct is always a shame....

 

I always loved the concept of desire demon it was tempting, seductive and that was the most dangerous part about it... It appears as a naked female figure? What is the problem? 

Prude person complain about it?... well i am certain most of this persons have not problem to watch series like game of thrones where they shovel unnecessary sex and breast scene so much....

But hey game of thrones is a tv show... is not a videogame... In videogame no one complain about blood,gore,mutilation,evisceration people buried alive and exploding corpses but if they see a pair of breast: OMG scandal!!!!!!!!!

 

Name one "politically correct" outlet or source that has ever complained or cried scandal about nudity or breasts in videogames...

 

Btw...DAI has more nudity than the previous DA titles so if prude is "politically correct", then it has certainly not moved in that direction...

 

The only people who seem overly concerned about boobs and breasts are those that, despite repeatedly stating that it is not about the breasts, constantly keep bringing up the only two components which happen to involve breasts in DA:O as the most important aspect of the game setting...

[Paul E Dangerously]

Name one that doesn't...

 

Fallout, Vampire, Planescape, Darklands all did dark and gritty long before Dragon Age...add to that all sorts of fps, science fiction, action, horror and adventure games that also incorporate dark elements and I can't really see where you get any sort of "shock" factor from DA:O, unless it was one of the first games you ever played after Mario Kart...

 

You. You get the like just for being someone else that remembers Darklands. That game was so ahead of it's time it isn't even funny.

 

As far as the topic goes, Bioware's pretty mercurial. Once the mood shifts from "let's be an inoffensive tumblr hugbox" to "marketing says we need to appeal to males from 15-25", you'll probably see 'em back. Hell, I'm amazed they didn't try to make DAI darker and more sexual to try and appeal to the crowd that's flocking to Game of Thrones in droves. Or do we need to wait for DA4 for them to shift from "Elder Scrolls" to "GoT"?

[Monica83]

Name one "politically correct" outlet or source that has ever complained or cried scandal about nudity or breasts in videogames...

 

Btw...DAI has more nudity than the previous DA titles so if prude is "politically correct", then it has certainly not moved in that direction...

 

The only people who seem overly concerned about boobs and breasts are those that, despite repeatedly stating that it is not about the breasts, constantly keep bringing up the only two components which happen to involve breasts in DA:O as the most important aspect of the game setting...

Do you remember mass effect the first? It have a scene of total nudity american tv yelled scandal about it... Then the later games those content been utterly censored...

 

And we got laughtable things like ash making a shower in underwear....(if you can't render a shower scene because you are not comfortable and you fear scandals why adding a scene like that?

Same happened at the romance scenes between dragon age origin and dragon age 2... In origin character had underwear in those scenes while in dragon age 2 were always dressed or in the case of merryl.. a corset from nowhere.... 

 

At the same time we had a pirate girl "isabela" traveling in corset long boots and perizoma in our party....

 

Do i feel inquisition more mature? no.. not at all.... The mainquest was ok... "even if felt like already seen as a situation and sometimes i had the impression was inspired by mass effect triology..." 

 

But romances was not handled at all in a mature manner....or even certain situations..And then.. we had the "choice demon" dressed like a random dude... such a shame...

 

See this game had a lot of opportunity.but honestly i had seen much more mature and controversial characters in other games.....

 

 

I disliked how homosexuality of some character yelled to me clichè..... When you can create far more interesting character avoiding to fall in the "ah....so... is that kind of character again..."

 

 

Examples?:

 

Vivec from morrowind..... A living god with dual nature....

[Terodil]

The only people who seem overly concerned about boobs and breasts are those that, despite repeatedly stating that it is not about the breasts, constantly keep bringing up the only two components which happen to involve breasts in DA:O as the most important aspect of the game setting...

 

Brilliant argument.

 

"The only people who seem overly concerned about traffic lights are those that, despite repeatedly stating that it is not about the traffic lights, constantly keep bringing up the components 'streets' and 'crossings' which happen to involve traffic lights in daily life..."

 

Surprise: Women have breasts. This game has women. Therefore, this game has breasts. Shocker! Does this mean we're not allowed to talk about the game at all any more, for fear of being labelled "pervs" as implied in your statement ("overly concerned about boobs and breasts")?

 

Seriously, I think you need to tone down on this kind of dismissive and diffamatory jibe, because it does not contribute to the discussion at all beyond making your 'moral' standpoint abundantly clear. Thanks for that, I think I've understood it by now.