510 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica83]

Heh. I don't disagree with you at all, Monica... but your post just drives home (again) how subjective this discussion is. I personally found The Witcher's 'grittiness' too tacked-on for my tastes, too artificial. It didn't help that sex in that game was absolutely gratuitous and buried the idea of romance altogether (I mean, TW professes his 'undying love' ™ for that one mysterious woman, but casually bangs every other female being that hasn't managed to flee onto a tree by the count of three... and amasses a room full of "I f*cked this girl" 'score' cards... wtf). I have no qualms about casual sex if you want to drive your protagonist's character that way, but eh... the option to have some more complexity would be very welcome, thank you. (That is why I generally prefer(red) Bioware games to competitors', because they used to thrive on complex relationships. *cough*)

 

And of course i can see and i respect your opinion but you also have to consider how the setting is... The witcher is a series with a gritty medieval feel on it...Dragon age after origins is more like make people in love then make love with them.... The witcher 2 pretty much imported how was the medieval society in the setting... For example prostitute in taverns or prostitute tents in army camps.. Also more mature themes like execution.betrayal torture... But the witcher is not only that... There are beautiful things like:

 

The lady of the lake on the witcher 1

The driad on the witcher 1

The amazing quest of the missing girl that turns out she work in a brothel where a group of vampires work hidden in the human society...

The elven ruins part...

 

The witcher 2 had amazing moments too

 

The quest Rose of Remembrance 

The succubus quest

The arrival at the dwarven city...

 

Is a mix and match of dark even cruel themes and fantasy beautiful things...

 But people seems to be to focus too much to criticize the sexual scene in the game....

 

Geralt can go with prostitutes...ok

 

Do you have to fall in love with someone to go in bed with him?....of course not... Maybe the witcher 2 had prostitute sex themed things but to me is far more believable..

 

At least Dragon age origins had a brothel....also dragon age 2 even if it was meh...

[dfstone]

So this is the 2nd thread I've read so far where people are complaining that some female characters don't look sexy enough or are missing from the game.  I mean seriously?  Yall need to get laid or something. This is a frikken game.

[Monica83]

is not about how sexy female character is... is about how contents are handled... Indeed DAO had more deep dark themes on it..

[Terodil]

So this is the 2nd thread I've read so far where people are complaining that some female characters don't look sexy enough or are missing from the game.  I mean seriously?  Yall need to get laid or something. This is a frikken game.

 

 
Thank you Mario! I'm rich!

[Abyss108]

About half the posts here are about whether the game is actually mature. Which is a legitimate topic (though one I disagree with). The other half is just crying about the lack of boobs, prostitutes and sex. Which is just kinda sad.

[In Exile]

Value statements such as "good", "mature", etc. cannot be proven; we can only reveal and debate the reasons why we make them. Why do you keep asking for proof when you know (or should know) that such proof cannot be provided? What point are you trying to make?

If it makes you feel better, substitute the word "demonstrated" or "convinced". The point that I am making - quite often - is that people make arguments that do not support the conclusion that they advance. The word "proof" is often used in that way (e.g. as math or logic proof).

[Lord Surinen]

I wonder, what if blood magic is not in the game because people would want to use it on Dorian or Sera to change them from non straight to straight?

 

I miss the blood magic, it is far 'darker' than necromancy. There is no lore reason to keep it out, it is not as if your closest followers would rush against you and even if they would, the more power to us, that is choices: kill, persuade or mind control. Not tomention pools of blood, raining blood, blood!

[Terodil]

If it makes you feel better, substitute the word "demonstrated" or "convinced". The point that I am making - quite often - is that people make arguments that do not support the conclusion that they advance. The word "proof" is often used in that way (e.g. as math or logic proof).

No, what you are doing is splitting hairs. There has been plenty of demonstration given in this thread, but you are not convinced. That's fine, nobody is forcing you to change your opinion. Then say so, but do not demand proof in what seems to me the hope of intimidating people out of doing just what you are doing -- voicing their opinions.

Just for the record, proofs can be wrong. Value statements can be disagreed with. That's an important distinction, and no attempt to redefine the concept of "proof" can distract from it.

[wicked cool]

Was there a edict to reduce mature themes and horror or was one of the former writers from origins/da2 responsible and no longer influencing those themes?

[Innsmouth Dweller]

(...) proofs can be wrong (...)

actually... no. proof itself cannot be wrong, that's like... impossible and contradicts the basic idea. the theory used to formulate a proof can be wrong tho 

 

sorry! carry on!

[In Exile]

No, what you are doing is splitting hairs. There has been plenty of demonstration given in this thread, but you are not convinced. That's fine, nobody is forcing you to change your opinion. Then say so, but do not demand proof in what seems to me the hope of intimidating people out of doing just what you are doing -- voicing their opinions.

Just for the record, proofs can be wrong. Value statements can be disagreed with. That's an important distinction, and no attempt to redefine the concept of "proof" can distract from it.

No. I'm calling people out on their nonsense argument. Saying DAI isn't mature because - despite having an "M" rating it doesn't fit what I think the strict definition of an "M" rated game is - doesn't even amount as an argument for maturity. It's a red herring and should be called out as such.

As to participating in the thread proper, I have. When there was a proper argument to be had. But giving red herrings weight as an actual argument is part of what makes the BSN toxic. I'm not "demanding" proof; I'm pointing out the argument doesn't follow or make sense. I can use different words if this offends you so fundamentally but the only attempt at "intimidation" here is your own by using the very tactics you're accusing me of using.

Sure, proofs can be wrong. But the word has a colloquial use and the only person splliting hairs here is you by arguing that I'm not using the technically proper definition of the word when my meaning is quite clear.

[atlantico]

No. I'm calling people out on their nonsense argument. Saying DAI isn't mature because - despite having an "M" rating it doesn't fit what I think the strict definition of an "M" rated game is - doesn't even amount as an argument for maturity. It's a red herring and should be called out as such.

 

Actually, it's the other way around. People claiming it must be mature, because of a mature rating. That's the point, that instead of making an effort to prove their argument either way, some people just point to the M rating and conclude, therefore, that it must be a mature game. 

 

You twisting that point around, is fun, but pointless to this discussion.

[TheOgre]

About half the posts here are about whether the game is actually mature. Which is a legitimate topic (though one I disagree with). The other half is just crying about the lack of boobs, prostitutes and sex. Which is just kinda sad.

I don't see why breasts are so scary, I mean cassandra shows them! Why fear the breast demons!

[Terodil]

actually... no. proof itself cannot be wrong, that's like... impossible and contradicts the basic idea. the theory used to formulate a proof can be wrong tho 

 

sorry! carry on!

 

Mmmh. Dunno. Linguistically you are probably right, an error immediately strips an attempted "proof" of its designation as "proof", though I'd argue that *that* is actually within an acceptable grey range (as in: "You made a mistake in your proof.", even if it stops being a proof at that point.)

 

@In Exile: You calling opinions "nonsense" because you simply do not find the underlying argument "proper" / arbitrarily call it a "red herring"... *drumroll*... proves my point (actually, it doesn't, but it illustrates it beautifully). If you disagreed with them -- fine, no complaint from me. But since you insist on summarily labeling views you don't share as intellectually unsound, I think I'm done discussing this with you. Personally I couldn't really care less, except I can tell you will go on trying to pull this trick with others who will fall for it. Sigh. Have fun. Maybe you want to carve a notch in the frame of your screen for every argument you manage to shoot down that way.

[Abyss108]

I don't see why breasts are so scary, I mean cassandra shows them! Why fear the breast demons!

 

Nobody has said they're scary... Just the people who think its vitally important to have them included in a game for "maturity" are kinda weird. I don't see people shouting for graphic penises to be included for "mature" reasons. 

 

If either need to be included for a scene, fair enough, but just arguing they should be included for no reason is pretty sad. It also distracts from the people who are trying to discuss whether the game actually is mature in terms of themes/plot. 

[TheOgre]

Nobody has said they're scary... Just the people who think its vitally important to have them included in a game for "maturity" are kinda weird. I don't see people shouting for graphic penises to be included for "mature" reasons. 

 

If either need to be included for a scene, fair enough, but just arguing they should be included for no reason is pretty sad. It also distracts from the people who are trying to discuss whether the game actually is mature in terms of themes/plot. 

 

I'm going to be honest about that part too. I was indeed looking forward to female desire demons. Michel told me that he let out a male desire demon, I was like "maybe we will see a recurring theme but this time in the opposite format" ergo naked demon with his thing out. 

 

He was just a robed guy! I felt like they missed out on an opportunity there! It's like they didn't want to take that stand! This isn't for the sake of maturity for me, but come now.. Can you honestly blame a cave ogre that likes seeing naughty things in games?

 

AND NO i'm not going to go buy TW1-3 just because it has sex in it. I agreed with terodil. Getting amazing points for nailing random girls on the way despite having a true lover.. BAH

[Winged Silver]

I'm going to be honest about that part too. I was indeed looking forward to female desire demons. Michel told me that he let out a male desire demon, I was like "maybe we will see a recurring theme but this time in the opposite format" ergo naked demon with his thing out. 

 

He was just a robed guy! I felt like they missed out on an opportunity there! It's like they didn't want to take that stand! This isn't for the sake of maturity for me, but come now.. Can you honestly blame a cave ogre that likes seeing naughty things in games?

 

AND NO i'm not going to go buy TW1-3 just because it has sex in it. I agreed with terodil. Getting amazing points for nailing random girls on the way despite having a true lover.. BAH

 

Not going to lie...I was hoping for a male desire demon too the female desire demons are very pretty (and do offer some interesting character development choices - I've been toying with the idea of making Jowan betray my warden by taking the desire demon's deal in Conor's dream ^.^) and I would've loved to see how Bioware portrayed the male ones 

[In Exile]

Mmmh. Dunno. Linguistically you are probably right, an error immediately strips an attempted "proof" of its designation as "proof", though I'd argue that *that* is actually within an acceptable grey range (as in: "You made a mistake in your proof.", even if it stops being a proof at that point.)

@In Exile: You calling opinions "nonsense" because you simply do not find the underlying argument "proper" / arbitrarily call it a "red herring"... *drumroll*... proves my point (actually, it doesn't, but it illustrates it beautifully). If you disagreed with them -- fine, no complaint from me. But since you insist on summarily labeling views you don't share as intellectually unsound, I think I'm done discussing this with you. Personally I couldn't really care less, except I can tell you will go on trying to pull this trick with others who will fall for it. Sigh. Have fun. Maybe you want to carve a notch in the frame of your screen for every argument you manage to shoot down that way.

Your post is almost an exemplar of the pot calling the kettle black. So let's agree to diagree and not further detail the thread.

[TevinterSupremacist]

 The other half is just crying about the lack of boobs, prostitutes and sex. Which is just kinda sad.

Don't underestimate how fun people can find boobs, prostitutes and sex in their games.

[TheOgre]

Not going to lie...I was hoping for a male desire demon too the female desire demons are very pretty (and do offer some interesting character development choices - I've been toying with the idea of making Jowan betray my warden by taking the desire demon's deal in Conor's dream ^.^) and I would've loved to see how Bioware portrayed the male ones

For curiosity's sake I would have liked to see a reverse of the female desire demon. It just didn't feel like a real desire demon. Not in choice or, even an attempt for an iconic look. Critics can say female desire demons aren't iconic but a bunch of us cave ogre males can be seen desiring one!

[In Exile]

Actually, it's the other way around. People claiming it must be mature, because of a mature rating. That's the point, that instead of making an effort to prove their argument either way, some people just point to the M rating and conclude, therefore, that it must be a mature game.

You twisting that point around, is fun, but pointless to this discussion.

You may well be right about others - I can't say I read every page. In your post, however, you were talking about how in your view DAI is more like a PG13 or teen rates game than a mature one.

Let's say I agree with you completely. That doesn't mean it's less dark. You're assuming that the maturity of a game is tied to how explicit it is in showing its dark content. But I don't see that as true. FFIX is an insanely dark game - it has multiple genocides, some of which you see on-screen. Yet it has an art style at odds with that and isn't rated M. But it is, IMO, as dark or darker than DAO in subject matter. Another example is the Tactics Ogre series of games. Again if is rated "T" but it is a series that has a more mature take on faith than even arguably DAO. Let us Cling Together has as dark a take on racial politics and human nature as TW2.

[Winged Silver]

For curiosity's sake I would have liked to see a reverse of the female desire demon. It just didn't feel like a real desire demon. Not in choice or, even an attempt for an iconic look. Critics can say female desire demons aren't iconic but a bunch of us cave ogre males can be seen desiring one!

 

Hmm....I haven't read all the DA books yet, but I thought I heard somewhere that Ishmael was a "Forgotten One" (in a similar vein as Gaxkang the Unbound from Origins and, Xsomethingsomething from DA2), so that may account for the discrepancy of appearances (him being something else). If that is the case, I don't think it would've been bad if they'd made that a little more clear in game - it seems like a lot of people don't really know what to make of him. I just want to see a male desire demon...I'm curious too! (and have high expectations, having seen the ladies ). Maybe Bioware is upgrading them to 'major plot monster' status - we'll only see them for really really important points. I suppose we shall see!

[Monica83]

No. I'm calling people out on their nonsense argument. Saying DAI isn't mature because - despite having an "M" rating it doesn't fit what I think the strict definition of an "M" rated game is - doesn't even amount as an argument for maturity. It's a red herring and should be called out as such.

As to participating in the thread proper, I have. When there was a proper argument to be had. But giving red herrings weight as an actual argument is part of what makes the BSN toxic. I'm not "demanding" proof; I'm pointing out the argument doesn't follow or make sense. I can use different words if this offends you so fundamentally but the only attempt at "intimidation" here is your own by using the very tactics you're accusing me of using.

Sure, proofs can be wrong. But the word has a colloquial use and the only person splliting hairs here is you by arguing that I'm not using the technically proper definition of the word when my meaning is quite clear.

 

Nonsense argument for you.. I am one of the people that provide examples about how in my opinion DA:I is not mature at all... You seem just not open to other argumentation dismissing and not discussing....

[In Exile]

Nonsense argument for you.. I am one of the people that provide examples about how in my opinion DA:I is not mature at all... You seem just not open to other argumentation dismissing and not discussing....

You may well have provided examples. Restricted my comments solely to trying to rely on ratings board comparisons. If that was your argument I think it's nonsense. If you made some other argument I am happy to dig through the thread and respond.