266 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

My brother is gay and he HATED mshep/Kaidan.    He said if they wanted to do it right they should have not recycled most of the femSHEP scenes.   He prefers Cortez.

My brother is gay and he HATED mshep/Kaidan.    He said if they wanted to do it right they should have not recycled most of the femSHEP scenes.   He prefers Cortez.

I though the same thing with Kaidan's lines, in the male romance. I liked Cortez but still would not romance him as a charcter since it all happened within six months. See they should at least do them right.

[pinkjellybeans]

No, that means they are potentially any sexuality, bisexual included. Heterosexuality isn't default that everyone who doesn't state otherwise is.

 

Yes Bioware changed him straight in the game which is sad.

 

They didn't change anything, since he was never confirmed to be bi in the first place. The fact that you could flirt with him as female warden and not as a male would be more of an indication that he has always been straight.

 

And I was referring to that person's post which was basically saying that it doesn't matter that Cullen flat out rejects the male Inquisitors, he could still be bi because he never said at any point the words "I'm straight", which is ridiculous in my opinion.

 

He says to the male Inquisitor "I would value your friendship. I'm afraid I cannot offer more." I think that's pretty straightforward (no pun intended). Cullen is shy and polite, he wouldn't say something like Sera who makes a disgusted face to the male Inquisitor and says "Your thing is not my thing". He was trying to tell the Inquisitor in a nice way that he's not interested in men. The dialogue with female qunari and dwarf is actually different. The tone of voice is way more gentle and before saying that line he says "I... If I've made you think otherwise... (sighs) I have so many responsibilities....". So he's obviously saying that because he's not attracted to the race and he's trying to come up with an excuse.

[daveliam]

Speaking from personal experience, I found the mshep/Kaidan romance arc across the three games to be one of the most natural character developments in Mass Effect.

In retrospect I'm actually content they did not make him a romance option in ME1. It made the ME3 climax all the better.

 

Agreed.  The Kaidan/mShep romance is incredibly well written and believable.  It's by far, hands-down, my favorite romance in any Bioware game.  The three game arc over which Kaidan discovers his feelings for Shep is an awesome slow-burn and I seriously cannot like it any more than I do.  I can understand people being disappointed because it's similar to the FemShep romance, but that does nothing personally to make me dislike it at all.  It's really top-notch in my opinion.

[Owlfruit Potion]

Let’s see:

• Non-joking accusation of heterophobia / straight erasure
• “Just because someone is attracted to every possible PC of one gender regardless of appearance / personality and no possible PC of the other gender regardless of appearance / personality doesn’t mean they’re exclusively attracted to the first gender!” (EDIT: *)
• Multi-fonted and/or multi-colored large-text shrieking
• Equating was-always-written-as-Bi Anders with retconned-but-for-very-good-reasons Kaidan and retcon-considered-but-abandoned Cullen
• Straight people willfully ignoring that BW considered making Cullen bisexual in DA:I (EDIT: OK, Melca is correct, this particular thread did not actually have anyone going "those sound files were just cut together from other conversations!" LATE EDIT: Well, until p. 9, anyway.)
• Equating the presence of four bi people in DA2 with “everyone in the world wants into Hawke’s pants” fanservice
• Equating the morality of wanting straight characters changed to bi with the morality of wanting gay characters changed to bi

Add a free space for "Just roll a female!!" and surely that’s enough for someone to have “Another Make Cullen Bi Thread” BINGO by now?

 

I'm really glad Scout Harding is interested in everyone and no other characters people are hoping will return have expressed any interest in any gender; since DA doesn't do repeat romances, and since as far as I know Harding is the last remaining mini-romance, hopefully this means we won't have to see this same discussion every few weeks once DA4 is on the horizon.

 

* EDIT: I don't mean to imply that this one is as ridiculous as the others; I just don't see it. To me, assuming Cassandra was straight pre-DA:I just because she liked Regalyan would have been heteronormative, but assuming that for a romanceable or mini-romance character, of whose preferences you have godlike metagame knowledge you could never possibly have for a real person, is not.

[Lebanese Dude]

@Lebanese Dude: Question: say if Cullen only ever expressed an interest in a male Warden in Origins and was only able to be romanced by a male Inquisitor in Inquisition, yet never explicitly stated that he was gay, would you still be insisting that he could be potentially be bisexual? .

Why not? Did I ever claim that the opposite can't hold true?

Also, don't you see the unfortunate implication of switching a supposedly gay character's sexual orientation in the current sociological climate? There a subtle difference that one needs to pay attention to.

[Melca36]

Speaking from personal experience, I found the mshep/Kaidan romance arc across the three games to be one of the most natural character developments in Mass Effect.

In retrospect I'm actually content they did not make him a romance option in ME1. It made the ME3 climax all the better.

 

My brother felt the opposite. He felt it was ridiculous, and it did not feel real for him and he hated how straight female fans fetishized the couple.  He said if they wanted to do it right they should have made a better effort and use different dialogue.

[daveliam]

@Lebanese Dude: Question: say if Cullen only ever expressed an interest in a male Warden in Origins and was only able to be romanced by a male Inquisitor in Inquisition, yet never explicitly stated that he was gay, would you still be insisting that he could be potentially be bisexual? I'm genuinely curious here, because I just can't understand the mentality of some people on this forum. I mean, come on, Bioware is a fairly progressive company - if they wanted Cullen to be bi they would have made him available to a male Inquisitor as well, but they didn't, so it's obvious that he's straight. You'd have to be fairly dense not to realise this. Does it really need to be spelt out for you? 

 

Take Juhani from KOTOR as another example of what I'm trying to say. She doesn't explicitly state that she's a lesbian, but it's fairly obvious that she is when you consider that: 1) She only ever expresses a romantic interest in you if your character is female, 2): it's implied that she was in a relationship with a female Jedi. You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes in order to put the pieces together here. You just need to use your brain ever so slightly.

 

However, if we go by your logic, she could be bisexual as she never explicitly stated that she's a lesbian. Sure, there's a possibility, but it would be rather unlikely, don't you think? I do. She's a lesbian, I don't need her to come out (pun unintended) and tell me that she's a lesbian. I've already figured it out - I'm not that stupid.

 

Yes, you can use common sense to figure out someone's sexuality most of the time.  But, if you make assumptions about people (and we all do it) based on what you observe about a person, you might be wrong.  That's the point.  There's really nothing in the first two games that requires a retcon for Kaidan to be bisexual.  He had a crush on a girl back in high school and he's willing to break fraternization polices for FemShep (but not mShep) in ME.  Okay, he could be straight.  He's not gay.  But there's nothing there to say that he's not bisexual.  That's the point.

 

With your scenario about Cullen, yes, I would think that Cullen would possibly be bisexual.  Just like, technically, Steve could be bisexual.  I don't think he ever identifies as gay.  He just had a husband and was interested in mShep.  Samantha, on the other hand, is not bisexual because she identifies as lesbian (if I remember correctly).  Dorian and Sera?  Both identify as gay.  If they were bisexual in the next game, then it would be a retcon.  Juhani, technically, could still be bisexual.  So could almost all of the 'straight' characters because they rarely turn down a s/s PC.  It's usually done by just not offering flirt options at all.  If they offered them and then the person said, "Nope, not interested" to only s/s PCs, then I tend to think that this is enough evidence to say that they are straight.  It's why LebDude and I disagree about Cullen in this case.  I think the fact that he can flirt with a male PC and then turn him down is enough for me to see that he's straight.  It could be clearer if he said specifically that it's because my character is a guy, but I don't think that's necessary.

 

Does this make sense?

[Ryzaki]

No there's not a bi Cullen mod yet.

 

I'd just wait. They'll probably be one soon enough. *shrug*

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Also, don't you see the unfortunate implication of switching a supposedly gay character's sexual orientation in the current sociological climate? There a subtle difference that one needs to pay attention to.

There is no difference between that and doing the same to a straight character. 

[daveliam]

My brother felt the opposite. He felt it ridiculously, and it did not feel real for him and he hated how straight female fans fetishized the couple.  He said if they wanted to do it right they should have made a better effort and use different dialogue.

 

Okay.......?  Yeah, gay people think different things.  I'm not sure what your point is.  There are people on the boards who agree with your brother too.  Doesn't mean that it diminishes the other point of view, right? 

[Melca36]

Let’s see:

• Non-joking accusation of heterophobia / straight erasure
• “Just because someone is attracted to every possible PC of one gender regardless of appearance / personality and no possible PC of the other gender regardless of appearance / personality doesn’t mean they’re exclusively attracted to the first gender!”
• Multi-fonted and/or multi-colored large-text shrieking
• Equating was-always-written-as-Bi Anders with retconned-but-for-very-good-reasons Kaidan and retcon-considered-but-abandoned Cullen
• Straight people willfully ignoring that BW considered making Cullen bisexual in DA:I
• Equating the presence of four bi people in DA2 with “everyone in the world wants into Hawke’s pants” fanservice
• Equating the morality of wanting straight characters changed to bi and the morality of wanting gay characters changed to bi

Add a free space for "Just roll a femalel!" and surely that’s enough for someone to have “Another Make Cullen Bi Thread” BINGO by now?

 

I'm really glad Scout Harding is interested in everyone and no other characters people are hoping will return have expressed any interest in any gender; since DA doesn't do repeat romances, and since as far as I know Harding is the last remaining mini-romance, hopefully this means we won't have to see this same discussion every few weeks once DA4 is on the horizon.

 

 

Nobody is ignoring. Its the fact that there are hypocrites who want to erase who he is because they are being spoiled and entitled because they didn't get him.

 

Its the fact that there are selfish people in this fandom from BOTH sides.

 

Like I said...I will always call out the selfish people who want to change Dorian but I will also call out the people who want to change Cullen and Cassandra. 

 

And if a person can't roll a female...thats there flaw.

 

My brother romanced Dorian, Iron Bull.......He is currently playing a male romancing Cassandra and his husband is playing a female dwarf romancing Sera.  

[Lebanese Dude]

There is no difference between that and doing the same to a straight character.

in an ideal world free of homophobia and anti-gay therapy camps? Perhaps.

[Melca36]

No there's not a bi Cullen mod yet.

 

I'd just wait. They'll probably be one soon enough. *shrug*

There will never be. You will need a script to change things.  The only mods you will see our textures and hairstyles

[Hanako Ikezawa]

in an ideal world free of homophobia and anti-gay therapy camps? Perhaps.

No, there is no difference period. The act is exactly the same. 

[TheLastArchivist]

Why can't Cullen be straight only and Dorian can be gay only?

Because young, inexperienced people believe in an ideal world, where people think and behave according to whatever platonic view they have of reality.

They don't yet understand people don't choose to be gay or bisexual. People are forged by circumstances and their choices are largely bound by their upbringing. 

 

Even if some people do have a bisexual experience, that doesn't mean they'll convert. This idea that everyone is potentially bisexual is a falsehood propagated by modern media.

And like any libertarian idea that's presented in the shape of attractive, well-dressed celebrities, and thoroughly repeated on TV, internet and social media, they buy it without question. 

[Ryzaki]

There will never be. You will need a script to change things.  The only mods you will see our textures and hairstyles

 

*shrugs* I'm willing to wait and see.

[Lebanese Dude]

No, there is no difference period. The act is exactly the same.

I'd love to live in your world.

[Melca36]

Okay.......?  Yeah, gay people think different things.  I'm not sure what your point is.  There are people on the boards who agree with your brother too.  Doesn't mean that it diminishes the other point of view, right? 

No it doesn't but my brother was ostracized for it back during the days on the old board.  He was called a bunch of names.

 

Just because he's gay, people assumed he was automatically going to like it and thought he was nuts for hating it.

[Lebanese Dude]

No it doesn't but my brother was ostracized for it back during the days on the old board.  He was called a bunch of names.
 
Just because he's gay, people assumed he was automatically going to like it and thought he was nuts for hating it.

Perhaps because it seemed petty at a time when LGBT representation in games was abysmal? I dunno.

Not defending those that chastised your brother though. Not cool.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'd love to live in your world.

So you are saying it is more okay to change a straight person into a bi person than it is to change a  gay person into a bi person? 

[Lebanese Dude]

So you are saying it is more okay to change a straight person into a bi person than it is to change a gay person into a bi person?

If you read my post, I said that there is no applicable difference in going either direction.

I just said that there are unfortunate implications regarding switching the sexual orientation of a gay character, at a time when the real world sociological climate is sensitive regarding the issue.

A straight character turning out to be bisexual or whatever is pretty normal to see in the media. The opposite doesn't hold true.

[daveliam]

Because young, inexperienced people believe in an ideal world, where people think and behave according to whatever platonic view they have of reality.

They don't yet understand people don't choose to be gay or bisexual. People are forged by circumstances and their choices are largely bound by their upbringing. 

 

Even if some people do have a bisexual experience, that doesn't mean they'll convert. This idea that everyone is potentially bisexual is a falsehood propagated by modern media.

And like any libertarian idea that's presented in the shape of attractive, well-dressed celebrities, and thoroughly repeated on TV, internet and social media, they buy it without question. 

 

I think you've missed the point.  No one here is saying that people are "converted".  That's really kind of gross.  The argument is that, just because you see a guy with a gal, doesn't mean he's straight.  It means that he's not gay.  If you assume he's straight, you might be right, but you might also be wrong.  The only way that you can tell if someone is bisexual is if they are either shown with both males and females or they identify as such explicitly. 

 

Hell, I had a girlfriend right after I graduated college.  Now I'm married to a man.  Have I been retconned?  If you only knew me back then (15 years ago) and just ran back into me now, you might think so.  But you'd be wrong.  That's the point.

 

No it doesn't but my brother was ostracized for it back during the days on the old board.  He was called a bunch of names.

 

Just because he's gay, people assumed he was automatically going to like it and thought he was nuts for hating it.

 

Well, I'm sorry to hear that experience about your brother.  There are shitty people on all ends of the spectra.  I'm just not understanding what bringing him up is going to accomplish.  I also have played female PCs in almost all of the Bioware games (except ME 3, because of Kaidan and Steve).  Doesn't mean that I can't still want to see a wider representation of gay/bisexual male characters. 

[Milana]

Get your head out of your liberal ass. There's a line between equality and damn right ridiculous, and this is ****** ridiculous. 

maybe instead of insulting me you can call an ambulance....My head is in my liberal ass!! 

 

I think i really have to stop checking this thread, or people will see more of my bad sense of humour

On the serious note though, how Op wanting Bi-Cullen mod is a bad thing, its not like he asks to patch the game and make Cullen bi in canon. And dont even start on comparing this with making Dorian bi,its not the same thing, and im not even going to explain why, its pretty obvious.

[Melca36]

So you are saying it is more okay to change a straight person into a bi person than it is to change a  gay person into a bi person? 

 

Its never okay to do that.   Just as its wrong, disgusting, and reprehensible to change Dorian, its wrong to change Cullen and Cassandra as well.

 

They are fine the way are.

 

I wish people would stop hiding behind the banner of representation and have the courage and guts to just admit that this is about NOT getting what they want.  

[Ogillardetta]

It seems like there's a misunderstanding happening here. 

 

On one hand, people are upset that some people want Cullen to be bisexual, even though it's been made clear by Gaider that he's straight and it's not going to change.  I can understand that because those requests are to change the established sexuality of a character.  While I'm disappointed about Cullen, I'm not in favor of changing that aspect of a character.

 

On the other hand, the idea that Cullen couldn't have been bisexual in DA: I is incorrect.  Cullen's hetero status was definitely not set in stone prior to DA: I and, specifically, Gaider's comments on him.  As others have rightfully pointed out, a character expressing interest in the opposite gender in the past does not lock their sexuality in as hetero.  It means that they are not gay.  It doesn't mean that they aren't bisexual.  A bisexual person does not have to express interest in both genders at all opportunities.  I see no retcons in Kaidan's and Anders' characters.  And, had Cullen be bisexual in DA: I, I wouldn't have seen that as a retcon either. 

 

Now, changing Dorian, Sera, or Cullen (at this point) to straight (for the former), gay (for the latter), or bisexual (for any of them) would be a retcon because, at this point, their sexualities have been established. 

This.Now I just hope that in the next game the knight in shining armor will be bi or gay.