75 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Yep, and you could use them all the time.Oh wait, no. You had to sleep to memorize them, a select portion of them. (not even mentioning most of the differences in spells were just visual/elemental, in essence most were the same)But please, drink some more nostalgia. It makes you an really nice person I've heard.

Play NWN2 then. Didn't matter which class you played then, all your spells were right there in a collapsing spell bar on the left.

It's not even the fact that the game only has 8 spell slots. Every prior Dragon Age game gave you access to all your spells. KOTOR and the Mass Effect series too. Diablo 3 did not, but that unlocked all your spells automatically and let you modify them to suit your specific build.

That's the basic problem. You can make a game work great with just 8 slots. But you can't build a spell system in isolation of it.

[robertthebard]

Here's the thing, from where I'm sitting: If we could only ever have 8 skills, no matter how high we could level up, then this really wouldn't be an issue. My NM mode rogue is currently level 15, and even taking upgrades and applicable passives, I don't have enough slots to have my Archery skills, my default Focus ability, and the skills from my specialization available. This means that, despite the nice passive benefits to things like the flasks in Tempest, you can't have them all on the bar, unless that's a majority of what you're going to use. So what is the tactical benefit of taking a passive that you can't trigger? On my assassin, I have several of the skills relegated to "I had to take it to get to the beef", because there's no room for them on the hot bar. I don't even take Parry any more, because at the end of the day, it winds up not being slotted, so that I can have some CC, or skills that aren't dependent upon me being attacked, something I don't really want to do on my rogue.

It's nice, however, to be vindicated. Because I predicted this kind of situation when we first saw the PC UI. The only part of my line of argument that wasn't applicable was the time to swap stuff around before a fight, and for me, it's because I'm really not interested in doing it, especially if I'm using a controller, because it seems, on PC, there's no way to remove skills from the hot bar with a controller, unless I just overwrite them with something else, which is fine and all, until you wind up with the same skill on the bar twice. That's pretty tactical, isn't it?

[spacefiddle]

The only part of my line of argument that wasn't applicable was the time to swap stuff around before a fight, and for me, it's because I'm really not interested in doing it, especially if I'm using a controller, because it seems, on PC, there's no way to remove skills from the hot bar with a controller, unless I just overwrite them with something else, which is fine and all, until you wind up with the same skill on the bar twice. That's pretty tactical, isn't it?

 

My eyes 

 

I think I'm seeing you say that you use a controller on the PC, and can't rearrange the skills well while using it?  If you accidentally place something on the bar twice, wouldn't you just.... overwrite it with what you want to be there...?  

 

On the PC with a mouse and keyboard, as most people expect an RPG with depth on the PC to make full use of, you just go into Tactics and drag them around as you see fit.  Pull them off, switch them around without removing them, etc.  It is annoying that there are "gateway" skills you are forced to take in order to reach the ones you want, but there aren't many of those that I've found.  Mostly I have been able to build combos and synergy within the 8-at-a-time limit with no problem.

 

If you *really* screw up - or if you realize Varric starts with no archery skills and a dagger attack - you can buy the cheap "Pendant of Oops" from near your forge area and re-choose everything to optimize it, at any time.

[hong]

You're right, your reply is nonsense.

It is absolute sense. Do you know why?

[robertthebard]

My eyes 
 
I think I'm seeing you say that you use a controller on the PC, and can't rearrange the skills well while using it?  If you accidentally place something on the bar twice, wouldn't you just.... overwrite it with what you want to be there...?  
 
On the PC with a mouse and keyboard, as most people expect an RPG with depth on the PC to make full use of, you just go into Tactics and drag them around as you see fit.  Pull them off, switch them around without removing them, etc.  It is annoying that there are "gateway" skills you are forced to take in order to reach the ones you want, but there aren't many of those that I've found.  Mostly I have been able to build combos and synergy within the 8-at-a-time limit with no problem.
 
If you *really* screw up - or if you realize Varric starts with no archery skills and a dagger attack - you can buy the cheap "Pendant of Oops" from near your forge area and re-choose everything to optimize it, at any time.

There's a limitless supply of the not so cheap ones too.

Yes, I can simply swap to M/KB and rearrange the hotbars as I see fit, well, maybe "simply" is too strong a word, since it involves quitting to the main menu to do so. None of this, however, addresses the point; if I had the skill slots to put my actives where they can be reached, I wouldn't need to worry about it overmuch. When I can be arsed to mess with it at all, I use the KB/M to put skills that I "might" need on the end of the bar, this has the effect of moving them to page 2 of the controller menu. None of this "fixes" the issue of I may want to use all of my flasks in a combat situation, and skills appropriate for my archer. None of this addresses that I may not want to be a generalist mage with KE as a spec. Maybe I want to be focused on actually controlling the battlefield and being a Rift Mage? Not sure why, but maybe I'd want to be a Necromancer, and have access to my spells? At low levels, this isn't much of an issue, and at really low levels, it's not even an option. But as you proceed through the game, it becomes more and more relevant.

[atlantico]

In my mind, it is absolute sense. Do you care why?

 

Fixedthatforu

[hong]

Fixedthatforu

Indeed, it is true that it is true for you. This is because it is true.

[atlantico]

Indeed, it is true that it is true for you. This is because it is true.

There is truth in that.

[hong]

There is truth in that.

Exactly. So, are we now agreed that having 8 skill slots is good?

[Chiramu]

You can play Diablo 3 with four keyboard buttons and two actions on the mouse. A small number of abilities mapped to keybinds is not the problem, the problem is with the level design and game play. 

[atlantico]

Exactly. So, are we now agreed that having 8 skill slots is good?

Tell you what, we can agree that having 8 skill slots can be good. 

[hong]

Tell you what, we can agree that having 8 skill slots can be good.

Indeed, it can be good for DAI.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Indeed, it can be good for DAI.

 

Nonsense.

[hong]

Nonsense.

Of course it can. It promotes more build diversity by requiring decisions to be made regarding builds and skill selection.

[Rawgrim]

Yep, and you could use them all the time.

Oh wait, no. You had to sleep to memorize them, a select portion of them. (not even mentioning most of the differences in spells were just visual/elemental, in essence most were the same)

But please, drink some more nostalgia. It makes you an really nice person I've heard.

 

Uhm you have to "memorize them" in DA:I, as well. Just have to do it before combat. BG still destroys DA:I with its sheer number of possible spells to use, and how to combine them.

 

And you mean how most spells are just variations of other spells in DA:I too, right? Pretty much just buffs left now.

 

And how is this nostalgia? Dungeons and Dragons still use that very same system. It is even in the 5td edition rules that still came out. Can' be nostalgic about something that is still produced and sold on a big scale, can we?

 

So yeah. Please drink some protein from an EA bodypart. You are doing so well at it so far.

[Rawgrim]

Play NWN2 then. Didn't matter which class you played then, all your spells were right there in a collapsing spell bar on the left.

It's not even the fact that the game only has 8 spell slots. Every prior Dragon Age game gave you access to all your spells. KOTOR and the Mass Effect series too. Diablo 3 did not, but that unlocked all your spells automatically and let you modify them to suit your specific build.

That's the basic problem. You can make a game work great with just 8 slots. But you can't build a spell system in isolation of it.

 

Quite right. It ruined the integrity of the spell system, really.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Of course it can. It promotes more build diversity by requiring decisions to be made regarding builds and skill selection.

 

Build diversity? How? You are forced to use the most efficient combinations, you can't just throw in a skill for fun (like dual wield parry) and with Sera I needed another slot to play her effectively. Her spec alone needs 4, then you need stealth and the dual wield abilities... and there you are at 9 already, without any fluff or utility or what have you. I think my lvl24 chars all had 12 or 13 abilities to choose from.

It's mindboggling that you think that limitation makes for good gameplay.

 

How many mages use wall of ice or wall of fire? Almost none, because those are the first abilities you take off from the quickbar because they are too situational and replace them with something you can use more often, like Chain Lightning.

[mutantspicy]

I play on PC with a gamepad.  IMO. You wouldn't even need to add skills to the radial menu to increase the skill bar slots.  You could simply have 2 or 3 x 8 slot skill bars.  You could toggle which bar you want with the left/right dpad.  I would like it, but in addition I would also want the ability to assign potions, grenades and tonics to those skill bars.   Radial menu is certainly a way to add more skills, but I would personally prefer skill bar toggles.  I'm quite annoyed that with the gamepad UI, I'm forced to use the radial menu to throw pitch grenades, and bees.

 

Once again this request for more skill slots is not limited to so called elite PC KB/M players.

[atlantico]

Uhm you have to "memorize them" in DA:I, as well. Just have to do it before combat. BG still destroys DA:I with its sheer number of possible spells to use, and how to combine them.

 

And you mean how most spells are just variations of other spells in DA:I too, right? Pretty much just buffs left now.

 

So yeah. Please drink some protein from an EA bodypart. You are doing so well at it so far.

 

I like your style.

[hong]

Build diversity? How? You are forced to use the most efficient combinations,

If you need the most efficient combinations, then you will use them anyway, regardless of whether restrictions exist. The restrictions are there because they mean that there is not one most efficient combination (which is to use everything you have).
 
 

you can't just throw in a skill for fun (like dual wield parry)

Parry is not just a "for fun" skill. Used well, it lets you tank bruisers. It is informative that you are not aware of this.

 

and with Sera I needed another slot to play her effectively. Her spec alone needs 4, then you need stealth and the dual wield abilities... and there you are at 9 already, without any fluff or utility or what have you. I think my lvl24 chars all had 12 or 13 abilities to choose from.
It's mindboggling that you think that limitation makes for good gameplay.

You... really think Sera needs 9 active skills? That, right there, is a l2p problem.

How many mages use wall of ice or wall of fire?

The exact same number as would use them if the restrictions didn't exist.

[Rawgrim]

I like your style.

 

The "EA fanboy card" always beats the "nostalgia card". Especially when nostalgia isn't even a factor. Like in this case.

[zeypher]

Game works fine.  There are other games with far less. Stop being lazy and learn to accept change and adapt.

Or you can raise your standards and refuse biowares crappy control scheme.

[AutumnWitch]

This is the thing for me. When I play as a Mage (which I mostly do). I find the  8 slots are limiting simply because of cool down limitations because I can only ever have six spells that I can usually trigger as I have one slot for the Power of the Inquisitor (which you can't always use) and the other is usually some type of defensive spell or other focus based spell. In any prolonged battles I end up waiting for my spells to recharge. I have plenty of mana but I just stand there like an idiot while all my spells are waiting to recharge. I've had several run throughs now and after my second time I realised I didn't need mana potions at all because that was never an issue. And because we are forced to take the most damaging spells they take longer to recharge anyway. And what is the point of giving us all these spells that we can't use them? On top of that they took away our attribute points on levelling and after a certain point in the game when I level up I don't really care because I know I am not going to be able to add anything to my arsenal because I have already been forced to select certain spells.

 

One thing it has done is pretty much forces me to drop of the Power of the Inquisitor spell when fighting a high dragon because it hardly ever comes up. Then I end up not using it at all because I forget to reassign it to a slot again.

 

The radical menu like DA2 would work so much better.

 

That being said, I bet 70% of the battles in DAI are over so quick you really don't need more than 8 spells anyway. But would be nice to have them esp when fighting a boss or dragon.

[dlux]

(PC)Give us more than the pathetic 8 skill slots..

I don't think it really makes a difference. The skill/magic system is so dumbed down and tailored for consoles that you don't really need more than 8 skills per character.

[tris1]

still believe you should have more skill slots than 8 its just making people use a specific build to play with its not tactical either you don't have someone going into a fight and going oh krap I cant use that spell I just forgot how to use that spell