18 réponses à ce sujet

[smooth_operator]

If she is uncontrolled then she is basically a machine gun for a good 8 seconds, doing what looks to be about 5 shots in the time it takes to do one regular shot (I havent calculated the exact numbers). The problem is when you control her and then activate the flask of lightning. Everything slows down except the 8 second timer, so it seems that you can't do as much damage in the controlled mode vs ai controlled.  Like if you don't control her she's really doing 40 seconds worth of damage, and when you control her it's only 8 seconds worth of damage.

 

 

 

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong here. I guess the best way to test is count how many shots you can get off while in flask of lightning mode. Then count the AI shots.

 

 

[Rynas]

Someone on another forum said they noticed this, too.  Not just with Sera, but also with an Inquisitor Tempest, if you pop FoL and then switch to someone else, they get a lot more attacks than if you stay with the FoL character.

[sinosleep]

It's a design decision. The flask is only supposed to slow time for the person that takes the flask not the whole party. So when you aren't in direct control instead of slowing down time for everyone and making it a disproportionately strong ability they simply speed up the character using the flask. 

[TheSchachter]

It's a design decision. The flask is only supposed to slow time for the person that takes the flask not the whole party. So when you aren't in direct control instead of slowing down time for everyone and making it a disproportionately strong ability they simply speed up the character using the flask. 

 

I don't think this is about the design decision of which effect plays out depending on who you control, but rather about whether the "speed up" effect is significantly more powerful than the "slow down" one, due to the timer being real time no matter what.

 

Just unlocked Flask of Lightning on Sera, so I'm curious to try this out for myself.

[smooth_operator]

I'm not talking about slowing time down for everyone. I'm talking about making the flask of lightning consistent for whoever uses it, whether human or AI. If I decide to use the flask for myself, then I should be able to do 40 seconds worth of damage in what seems to be 8 seconds for everyone else.  Instead only the AI can get the full benefits of the flask, and not a human player.  I can only pull off maybe 6 or 7 shots before the flask expires.

 

Anyway the fix is simple. If a human player activates it. Extend the timer from 8 seconds to 40 seconds. If I exit the mode to be another party member then I instantly go back to real time, and Sera resumes shooting really fast until her 8 seconds (real time) are up. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's a design decision. The flask is only supposed to slow time for the person that takes the flask not the whole party. So when you aren't in direct control instead of slowing down time for everyone and making it a disproportionately strong ability they simply speed up the character using the flask.

Let's imagine a scenario in which two opponents each attack once per second. Let's further imagine that Flask of Lighting has an 8x speed effect.

If a Tempest uses it, and you control her, her enemy is slowed by a factor of 8 for 8 seconds. The Tempest attacks 8 times, and her opponent (slowed), attacks once.

But if you don't control the Tempest, the speed effect is reversed. Instead of the opponent being slowed for 8 seconds, the Tempest speeds up for 8 seconds. Now, over those 8 seconds, the Tempest is attacked 8 times (instead of once), but the Tempest gets 64 attacks.

Controlling the Tempest makes Flask of Lightning a modest defensive ability. Not controlling the Tempest makes it an extremely powerful offensive ability.

That's the OP's point.

[teks]

Let's imagine a scenario in which two opponents each attack once per second. Let's further imagine that Flask of Lighting has an 8x speed effect.

If a Tempest uses it, and you control her, her enemy is slowed by a factor of 8 for 8 seconds. The Tempest attacks 8 times, and her opponent (slowed), attacks once.

But if you don't control the Tempest, the speed effect is reversed. Instead of the opponent being slowed for 8 seconds, the Tempest speeds up for 8 seconds. Now, over those 8 seconds, the Tempest is attacked 8 times (instead of once), but the Tempest gets 64 attacks.

Controlling the Tempest makes Flask of Lightning a modest defensive ability. Not controlling the Tempest makes it an extremely powerful offensive ability.

That's the OP's point.

This explanation doesn't make sense, since time is a matter of perspective. Working properly, both would be the exact same. There is no difference between slowing everyone down 8x,and speeding one person up 8x. Its the exact same thing.

 

The bug here, and the reason the teammate is attacked 8 times during the duration, while attacking 64 times, is because the cooldown on the ability is based on game time, not the time of the caster. If a teammate uses flask of lightning it should only last around 1 second game time, so they get 5-7x more effective duration then if you use it first person.

If this bug was reversed, it would be like your cooldown for flask of lightning was slowed by a factor of 8 as well. Giving you up to a full minute to attack targets.

[Sylvius the Mad]

This explanation doesn't make sense, since time is a matter of perspective. Working properly, both would be the exact same. There is no difference between slowing everyone down 8x,and speeding one person up 8x. Its the exact same thing.

Not if you don't speed up the clock at the same time.

Which is the point you make in your next paragraph.

[Gigamantis]

Interesting question.

 

I think you're right, so it's 8 seconds of normal damage while everything around you attacks 8x slower vs 8 seconds of Sera attacking 8x faster.  I think it still balances out, but only if you consider the ratio of the enemies potential output vs Sera's.  In either instance Sera is producing a relative 8x more output than her enemies. 

 

If you start looking at real time damage per second, though, controlling Sera during haste makes the fight far less efficient.  It's probably only advisable if you're using Sera to revive people on the battlefield. 

[actionhero112]

When you use Flask of Lightning, it's primarily a defensive ability. You're teammates don't attack for 8 seconds, but neither do your opponents. 

 

When the ai uses Flask of Lightning, it's a dps increase for 8 seconds, with no defensive quality. 

 

It is much better to relinquish control upon using flask of lightning. 

[Molohk]

I think people are missing the point of the flask.

 

If you use FoL while controlling the character, it is NOT a damage burst ability. It in fact will cripple your party's damage since they'll be slowed as well. If you're using FoL on your controlled character as a source of burst DPS, you're using it wrong, sure you'll get a marginal damage improvement by providing a more "static" target, but unless you're soloing you'll lose more damage than you'll gain.

 

That means FoL effectively has 2 different behaviors. A utility when used by the PC, and a burst when used by the AI. If they "fixed" their duration to make sense (i.e. 8X seconds for the caster and X seconds for everyone else), one would be overpowered or the other would be crap. The current behavior make sense for balancing, and it makes the ability more interesting to use.

[teks]

Not if you don't speed up the clock at the same time.

Which is the point you make in your next paragraph.

Yes that is my point exactly. IF it worked right, and was not bugged then both would be exactly the same. I brought it up because.

 

When you use Flask of Lightning, it's primarily a defensive ability. You're teammates don't attack for 8 seconds, but neither do your opponents. 

 

When the ai uses Flask of Lightning, it's a dps increase for 8 seconds, with no defensive quality. 

 

It is much better to relinquish control upon using flask of lightning. 

 

 

I think people are missing the point of the flask.

 

If you use FoL while controlling the character, it is NOT a damage burst ability. It in fact will cripple your party's damage since they'll be slowed as well. If you're using FoL on your controlled character as a source of burst DPS, you're using it wrong, sure you'll get a marginal damage improvement by providing a more "static" target, but unless you're soloing you'll lose more damage than you'll gain.

 

That means FoL effectively has 2 different behaviors. A utility when used by the PC, and a burst when used by the AI. If they "fixed" their duration to make sense (i.e. 8X seconds for the caster and X seconds for everyone else), one would be overpowered or the other would be crap. The current behavior make sense for balancing, and it makes the ability more interesting to use.

 

Several people aren't quite getting that this IS a bug, and the OP is completely correct.

Action hero,

When the AI is sped up 8x, they are fully capable of doing everything the player is capable of doing in the entire lightning flask duration in 1 second. They could blink across the map, drink a few potions, and still sneak up to backstab that nearby archer.

They get full defensive advantages, they simply don't make good on it, because they are AI, and, well ,they suck at pretty much everything.

 

The only reason it APPEARS that they don't get a defensive advantage is because the ability lasts 8X longer then it should, and the AI doesn't typically try manually repositioning all too often.

 

molohk,

I agree that the AI can't use the ability properly. The AI can't use ANY ability properly. For the most part this is intended, so that there is always an advantage to controlling the AI first hand. This is a bug. This is not intended in any way. This does not have 2 different behaviors what-so-ever.

Straight up, the AI gets 8x more lightning flask then the AI does.

A pretty serious bug.

 

But, on the other hand, in defense of you guys.

How does this stack up witht he upgrade...when time lies 99% still. From a player's perspective time is nearly stopped. How fast would the AI be to emulate this? Far too fast for the system to possibly comprehend, so, yeah.

I get what they were trying to do, and in theory 1 faster player is the exact same as everything else being slower, but actually making a system that can emulate this properly is kind of impossible.

 

So, what did they do?

They just kind of whipped some slapdash alternate system together, and said. GOOD ENOUGH.

So, yeah, there are two different systems really, but ultimately its a terrible idea. We can say, it works, but to anyone actually paying attention its clear how the two perspectives share nothing in common, and are poor imitations of each other at best.

[teks]

If ya get where I'm coming from. I'm not disagreeing with anyone entirely, just debating the nuances of the subject.

[Molohk]

I get your point, I just don't think it's a bug. Clearly FoL is designed to be an environmental "slow down" effect (on PC), even the ability's upgrade states so.

 

The OP sees FoL as a damage ability for the PC, and even compares both on the basis of damage dealt ("8 seconds of damage vs 40 seconds of damage"). While this comparison is accurate, it is not true to FoL's true design, which is slowing down the environment. This is why I think it is a fundamental mistake to measure FoL's effectiveness in terms of damage dealt.

 

The part that MAY be a bug is that perhaps the ability, when used by AI, should only last about 1-2 seconds from the perspective of any outsider. However, since AI is so terrible at using abilities, the effect is not that significant, and watching Sera go flash-like is pretty fun.

 

I know it'd be awesome to be able to go flash-like just like Sera does, but there are likely many technical and usability issues with this. Just imagine controlling a character with a 0.1 sec global cooldown, regaining 300 stamina per second, and moving at 8x speed.

[teks]

Well the AI would have no such problems pushing these limits. The only reason I imagine they choose to go this route is so it doesn't interrupt gameplay. Have you tried taking advantage of the ridiculous speeds in tactical by chance? It could be subject to all sorts of abuse. I don't use sara much, so I don't know. This thread was the first I heard of this. I had to test it myself just to see that it actually works like he said.

 

Maybe we can't call it a bug, but I wouldn't exactly call it intended either. II'd call it extremely poor mechanics that didn't go through nearly enough thought or testing. Its like someone did the bare minimum amount of work on the skill at the last minute to quick fix the ability slowing gameplay for the player. In fact I'm banking on it. I bet that's exactly what happened here. At the last minute they decided the skill clogged up the gameplay, and some guy spent his lunch break writing what the AI uses now.

 

I feel that allowing this simply because the AI is incompetent is a bit of a cop out, because the AI sucks at nearly everything. Honestly, if the skill allowed the AI to unload 8 times faster for 1-2 seconds it would still be one of the best AI skills in the game. The way it is now. Its totally not supposed to be a DPS skill like you said, yet the AI can do more DPS then the player can with a fire flask. Its with that comparison where things get clear how poor this is.

 

I don't like giving it any points just because its effective, but, well, I guess it is better then the alternative. Having your game freeze for 5-7 seconds every time the AI decides to use it. That would get very annoying.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes that is my point exactly. IF it worked right, and was not bugged then both would be exactly the same. I brought it up because.

Nothing about Actionhero's remark suggests this isn't a bug.  He correctly describes how the ability works.  He makes no statement in your quoted passage regarding bugs or design intent.

[teks]

What I was saying is that it has 8x the defensive value. Just that the AI chooses not to use it. I see where your coming from. Its the same thing. I gotta wonder if anyone has tried abusing it in tactical though. is that possible?

[Molohk]

It's kinda possible, but annoying and not very effective. Since duration is always 8 seconds, whether you're the one casting FoL (slow effect) or you're an outside observer (flash effect), in tac-cam you'll always advance time based on an 8 second duration. This means if you advance time while having Sera selected you get the normal slow effect, but if you advance while selecting another character it's very easy to over-advance, and practically impossible to take full advantage of Sera's speed.

 

Keep in mind that Sera is still limited by stamina and cooldowns, so she can't really spam any ability. It's probably better to just tweak tactics and let AI run it's course.

 

The thing about tac-cam, and the reason why I don't use it much anymore, is that there's a lot of wasted time with the controls. So it ends up taking 2 real life minutes to go through 1 minute of battle, or even worse. This kind of nullifies the DPS benefit.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I use Tac Cam for all melee encounters. FoL is terrific. Disable Sera's abilities, put her behind an enemy (so she gets flanking bonuses), and then trigger her FoL.

She'll auto-attack at blinding speed.