161 réponses à ce sujet

[Xariann]

Please learn to read. I have nothing bad, neither actions nor intentions towards LBGT community. I admit that this part of character depiction is right.

However I'm raging over OP lines that are not directly related to the topic name, thank you.

Then I may ask you that you also properly read what I am saying, and if I was unclear with what I said, I apologise. I am not trying to make a target of the LGBT community. 

 

I am saying that I cannot believe that there has been an incident where someone said BioWare didn't do enough for the LGBT community. I never said the community stated that.

 

Nowhere have I stated "the whole LGBT community is like that" otherwise I would have to include myself in that statement.

 

I am saying to the people who are criticising the game (without ever saying "the LGBT community is like this") because of the apparent lack of representation, that I don't agree with said lack. 

 

I am also not stating that everyone plays because of the LGBT material (I have also made the statement that I am one who doesn't play because of that). But look at the amount of threads that say "Not enough romance options for _____________".

[Xariann]

How did you not know Dorian was gay the first time you met his character?

I didn't. I wasn't the only one. Not long ago I read an article — was it PC Gamer? — from someone who also didn't realise and went ahead and tried to romance him as a woman. So if it comes as a shocker to you, you are obviously better than people like me at reading virtual characters.

[DirkJake]

Thank you for this post, OP.

 

Did Bioware do a perfect job at representing LBGT people? Of course not. I can find a lot of criticism being discussed in social justice circle; some of which I agree. 

 

Did Bioware do an excellent job at representing LGBT people? Totally! The LGBT characters have depth and variety. They do not exist as caricatures or just to fill out LGBT quota. Bioware make them interesting and represent them in respectful ways.

 

It shows that Bioware really puts a lot of effort into writing and portraying these LGBT characters, and so I think Bioware deserves a praise and I am not surprised that GLAAD gives the award to them.

 

So, thank you, Bioware.

[Lord Raijin]

Cremisius Aclassi was a terrible "transman" In fact Bioware wrote her as egotistical, self centered and selfish. Her history proves it.

 

Spoiler

She had an opportunity to save her family from poverty by marrying the son of a wealthy merchant,she refused, and took off to play the " Look I'm a man! look at my manly armor." game thus forcing her father to sell himself into slavery to safe his family.

 

Bioware did a poor job representing LBGT people... if that was their goal of adding characters like "Krem" all along.

 

[mutantspicy]

Cremisius Aclassi was a terrible "transman" In fact Bioware wrote her as egotistical, self centered and selfish. Her history proves it.

 

Spoiler

She had an opportunity to save her family from poverty by marrying the son of a wealthy merchant,she refused, and took off to play the " Look I'm a man! look at my manly armor." game thus forcing her father to sell himself into slavery to safe his family.

 

Bioware did a poor job representing LBGT people... if that was their goal of adding characters like "Krem" all along.

 

Let's not forget that he is a charger.  All of the chargers are outcasts of a sort.  I don't believe BW has the audacity to assume the one transgender character they have in their game represents all transgender people everywhere. Nor should anyone.  He is just character who happens to be transgender.  And it makes sense in the world they have created.  I'm sure some transgender people can relate to Crem's background feeling like an outcast, and making a choice that their families can't get behind.  Its not like our real world that we live in is all that accepting of transgender people. 

[daveliam]

Let's not forget that he is a charger.  All of the chargers are outcasts of a sort.  I don't believe BW has the audacity to assume the one transgender character they have in their game represents all transgender people everywhere. Nor should anyone.  He is just character who happens to be transgender.  And it makes sense in the world they have created.  I'm sure some transgender people can relate to Crem's background feeling like an outcast, and making a choice that their families can't get behind.  Its not like our real world that we live in is all that accepting of transgender people. 

 

Very well put.  Just like the fact that Blackwall (a liar and murderer) doesn't represent all straight men.  And Dorian and Sera don't represent all gay men and lesbians (respectively).  Krem doesn't represent all transmen.  He provides representation for transmen by appearing in the game.  But his inclusion, like all other characters, isn't meant to suggest that all transmen are like him.

[atlantico]

He provides representation for transmen by appearing in the game.  

 

A token.

[Sarielle]

A token.

 

But if every non-white, non-straight etc. character in the game were a shining example of humanity, that'd be straight up pandering -- and if I were the party receiving this "representation" I'd be insulted. Pandering is condescension.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Thanks, Bioware. Even though I have yet to get anything in this regard you still do a good job for those who have. 

[AresKeith]

Cremisius Aclassi was a terrible "transman" In fact Bioware wrote her as egotistical, self centered and selfish. Her history proves it.

 

Spoiler

She had an opportunity to save her family from poverty by marrying the son of a wealthy merchant,she refused, and took off to play the " Look I'm a man! look at my manly armor." game thus forcing her father to sell himself into slavery to safe his family.

 

Bioware did a poor job representing LBGT people... if that was their goal of adding characters like "Krem" all along.

 

Except Krem is meant to be a character first not some beacon of representation

 

Nice try though Raijin  

[atlantico]

But if every non-white, non-straight etc. character in the game were a shining example of humanity, that'd be straight up pandering -- and if I were the party receiving this "representation" I'd be insulted. Pandering is condescension.

 

Uh-huh. So if the main villain of the game were transgender, that would have been the very opposite of pandering? 

 

Or are there different levels of pandering?

[Sarielle]

Uh-huh. So if the main villain of the game were transgender, that would have been the very opposite of pandering? 

 

Or are there different levels of pandering?

 

I missed the part where Krem was the main villain, instead of an interesting side-character.

[atlantico]

I missed the part where Krem was the main villain, instead of an interesting side-character.

Did you now? I missed the part where pandering had to be ad-absurdum to be pandering. 

[mutantspicy]

Uh-huh. So if the main villain of the game were transgender, that would have been the very opposite of pandering? 

 

Or are there different levels of pandering?

The main villain of this game is probably the weakest character they created in the game.  If anything is probably an asexual red lyrium infused egomaniac with an unnatural affinity to become a god.  except the way they portrayed him more like a clown. I have no idea what you are getting on about.

[daveliam]

Uh-huh. So if the main villain of the game were transgender, that would have been the very opposite of pandering? 

 

Or are there different levels of pandering?

 

So basically they are damned if they do and damned if they don't with you.

 

If they include multiple transpeople, it's pandering.

If they include one transperson, it's tokenism. 

 

Explain to me your thoughts on how they can include trans characters (because they want to - Krem, Mae) and do it in a way that isn't pandering and tokenism.

[Sarielle]

Did you now? I missed the part where pandering had to be ad-absurdum to be pandering. 

 

You lost me. I don't see how your "ad absurdum" reference applies, though I'm also operating from the assumption that you do disagree with what I said.

 

EDIT: Wait, does this have something to do with the presumed plumbing of our big bad? I'm so confused.

[mutantspicy]

The thing about contrarians is they never actually say anything.  So no one can get behind them unless they happen to make a funny.

[atlantico]

So basically they are damned if they do and damned if they don't with you.

 

If they include multiple transpeople, it's pandering.

If they include one transperson, it's tokenism. 

 

Explain to me your thoughts on how they can include trans characters (because they want to - Krem, Mae) and do it in a way that isn't pandering and tokenism.

 

Why would it be pandering if it includes multiple transpeople? 

 

You lost me. I don't see how your "ad absurdum" reference applies, though I'm also operating from the assumption that you do disagree with what I said.

 

EDIT: Wait, does this have something to do with the presumed plumbing of our big bad? I'm so confused.

 

Yes, I asked a question, I did not make a statement. 

 

 

The thing about contrarians is they never actually say anything.  So no one can get behind them unless they happen to make a funny.

 

The thing about SJW is that they can't discuss things which they don't agree with, so they just fall back on ad hominem remarks instead.

[daveliam]

Why would it be pandering if it includes multiple transpeople? 

 

 

I'm confused about your issue is Krem, then.  Is your issue that it's tokenism because there's only one trans person?  If there were multiple trans people in the game, how does that make their presence 'better'?  What do you consider to be 'pandering'?  I'm trying to make sense of your posts and I'm struggling.

[atlantico]

I'm confused about your issue is Krem, then.  Is your issue that it's tokenism because there's only one trans person?  If there were multiple trans people in the game, how does that make their presence 'better'?  What do you consider to be 'pandering'?  I'm trying to make sense of your posts and I'm struggling.

 

Of course the two are not mutually exclusive. One can pander with a token character.

 

The point is, neither the game nor the story would change a bit, were this character not there. If Josie was transgender, that would have been impressive. This one, not so much.

[daveliam]

Of course the two are not mutually exclusive. One can pander with a token character.

 

When is it pandering?  Why would Krem be pandering? 

[spacefiddle]

@OP please don't draw a target on LBGT-community. 

 

Do not let fear rule you.  

 

Praise that which should be praised; call out that which should be called out; and never let fools misguide you into thinking that one negates the other.

 

haters gonna hate

[mutantspicy]

 

 

The thing about SJW is that they can't discuss things which they don't agree with, so they just fall back on ad hominem remarks instead.

 

 Who says I agree or disagree.  I have no idea what you are talking about.  What is your point?

[atlantico]

 Who says I agree or disagree.  I have no idea what you are talking about.  What is your point?

 

I didn't say I was disagreeing or agreeing with you. Why are you taking this so personally? What are you worried about?

[mutantspicy]

I'm not. Nor should you. Yes I called you out, its nothing personal.  I just don't know what you are trying to say it came off as contrarian to me. 

And btw what is SJW.  I've never heard that one before.