17 réponses à ce sujet

[Diefree]

Hello, I'm thinking of making a Champion Qunari but can't decide if I want to go SnS or two handed weapon. It seems that champions have enough protection without the shield but then being nigh unkillable could be interesting. So I'm looking for community opinions on both ways as well as any advice. Thanks for any information.

[Reman]

You could do 2H, but it won't have the damage of the templar or the reaver. IMHO, each subclass should be played to their strengths. The strength of the champion is the insane survivability while aggroing crowds and using stuns/knockdowns to set up detonators. SnS would be best for this, but going 2H won't give you the same aggro and tank capability. Even though you get more damage.

[Fullmetall21]

SnS would be the obvious choice since none of the Champion's talents is based on weapon damage meaning it does not benefit from the higher 2H damage like the Templar (Wrath of Haven) or the Reaver (Dragon's Rage). Now you could make a 2H Champion work of course, there is even a guy who posted a very viable build in these forums not long ago but I would advice on taking the SnS route personally. 

[actionhero112]

It's important to realize that 2 handed champions have access to a better late game through higher crit chance than their S&S contemporaries. The passive Flow of Battle decreases cooldowns by 1 every time you crit, which for you means that you'll spend more time within the invulnerability of walking fortress (My 2handed champion is always under it's effects now). The benefits of having a shield lessen when you're completely invulnerable anyways.

 

Not to mention that 2 handed abilities all have ability cooldowns that benefit greatly from this CDR, the lowest of them being a staggeringly long 16 seconds on mighty blow. Yikes. 

 

S&S warriors also benefit from this, but their abilities are on such a short cooldown that it doesn't really matter anyways, stamina is more of a constraining factor for them. 

[Fullmetall21]

It's important to realize that 2 handed champions have access to a better late game through higher crit chance than their S&S contemporaries. The passive Flow of Battle decreases cooldowns by 1 every time you crit, which for you means that you'll spend more time within the invulnerability of walking fortress (My 2handed champion is always under it's effects now). The benefits of having a shield lessen when you're completely invulnerable anyways.

 

Not to mention that 2 handed abilities all have ability cooldowns that benefit greatly from this CDR, the lowest of them being a staggeringly long 16 seconds on mighty blow. Yikes. 

 

S&S warriors also benefit from this, but their abilities are on such a short cooldown that it doesn't really matter anyways, stamina is more of a constraining factor for them. 

 

After my latest playthrough as a SnS Champion I found that even with high crit chance walking fortress would not come off cd fast enough for me to be effective as both 2H tank and dps. I still needed to either have a dedicated tank or drink a lot of potions. 

 

Also while 2H warrior in general benefit more from the Flow of Battle passive, the SnS ones benefit as well, with the +50 stamina amulet from the Sandy Howler I was able to practically spam my skills one after the other, now I might not crit as much as SnS but I did have half the cd on most of the abilities which is almost the same anyway.

 

Finally as I understand in order to make the 2H champion able to stand as both dps and tank at the same time you need to get the SnS passives or if you don't actually need to get them it's highly advised that you do. With the exception of Flow of Battle every other skill in the SnS tree is sadly superior to their 2H counterparts even the active skills.

 

Mighty Blow only does a lot of damage on knocked down enemies so that automatically rules out bosses of any kind. Lunge and Slash will do more damage than the normal Mighty Blow, since its a 2 part attack. Shield Bash nullifies the importance of Guard Breaker and Sundering on crit is better left to a rogue. Shield Wall is vastly superior to Block and Slash in so many ways it's not even funny. And I personally believe that Earthshattering Strike or whatever it's called is a VERY conditional skill to use and outright bad in most situations

 

TL;DR  As I said above the champion has not weapon damage based skill so it's better to go SnS for the superior talents of all kind therefore freeing a spot for a dedicated DPS instead of a tank. (I personally didn't feel like the CD reduction on walking fortress was enough to allow me to tank and dps at the same time) BUT if you really like huge swords and you likely will on a Qunari (shields and one handed weapons look...weird on them) there is nothing wrong with going 2H,

 

EDIT If you decide to go 2H champion here is a very helpful thread on how to do so successfully 

 

http://forum.bioware...pion-dps-build/

[Diefree]

Thanks for all the advice. The main reason I'm considering a champion for a warrior play through is, besides being nigh unkillable, simply lore. The other two seem to make you an addict lore wise.

[Alren]

2h Champion all the way!!! Although since I'm the author of the guide Fullmetal21 linked (thanks for promoting btw) I am a bit biased

[actionhero112]

-snip-

I've already addressed how sword and board champions don't benefit as much as 2 handed champions. Their cooldowns are shorter, thus the contraining factor is stamina, not cooldowns. I've said they benefit somewhat, but not as much as 2 handers, both because 2 handers are better at building crit, and because they have naturally longer cooldowns.

 

You need the SnS passives on a reaver. But as I've said, there is no reason to have them on a champion where you're not taking any damage at all. I haven't dipped into the s&s tree at all. 

 

The whole argument that shield talents do more damage is frankly false. It seems so to someone whose never played the class or crafted a 2 handed weapon, so I'm not surprised you think so. Essentially because of the extra damage that the 2 handed offers, it more than makes up for the low modifiers. Yes I know that the Serpents rage has almost as much primary damage as t3 2 handed weapons. But it can't build near the amount of attack% or crit that the slots on a 2 handed weapon provide. 

 

Max efficiency the Serpents Rage has around 40% attack

 

Max efficiency the Hossberg Twainer has around 70% attack

 

Obviously you're ignoring the main benefit to 2 handed talents, which isn't that they're especially powerful, but that they do aoe. This makes them better for tanking, because they not only cause draw threat effectively,  but they maintain it well through aoe talents and do more damage.  In fact I prefer it that way because the more goons that surround me, the more I crit on, the lower my cooldowns are. Which means more war cries, which means more people attacking me, which lowers my cooldowns. See what I mean. 

 

In my late game I'm always invulnerable on nightmare on my 2 handed champion. If you're not, perhaps you built improperly? What's your crit chance? Do you get the superb cooldown amulet? Are you using fade touched dawnstone? 

 

As far as damage on bosses. Lol. That's why I bring a rogue honey. I don't need to "might blow bosses" because sera and cole kill them so quick that it's laughable. There is no world in which a tank class is evaluated on it's DPS rather than it's ability to hold aggro and absorb hits. Which gets down to the crux of the argument, which is that because the 2handed champion is better at critting, it draw's more aggro through lower cooldowns on War Cry and takes less damage because of Walking Fortress lower cooldown.

 

EDIT: Also where are you getting this assumption that rogues make better sunderers? 2 handers have a bigger aoe, which means they can sunder more people and they're constantly attacking, which means they apply the sunder constantly. If the argument is crit chance, my champion has 70% crit chance. 

[Fullmetall21]

I've already addressed how sword and board champions don't benefit as much as 2 handed champions. Their cooldowns are shorter, thus the contraining factor is stamina, not cooldowns. I've said they benefit somewhat, but not as much as 2 handers, both because 2 handers are better at building crit, and because they have naturally longer cooldowns.

 

You need the SnS passives on a reaver. But as I've said, there is no reason to have them on a champion where you're not taking any damage at all. I haven't dipped into the s&s tree at all. 

 

The whole argument that shield talents do more damage is frankly false. It seems so to someone whose never played the class or crafted a 2 handed weapon, so I'm not surprised you think so. Essentially because of the extra damage that the 2 handed offers, it more than makes up for the low modifiers. Yes I know that the Serpents rage has almost as much primary damage as t3 2 handed weapons. But it can't build near the amount of attack% or crit that the slots on a 2 handed weapon provide. 

 

Max efficiency the Serpents Rage has around 40% attack

 

Max efficiency the Hossberg Twainer has around 70% attack

 

Obviously you're ignoring the main benefit to 2 handed talents, which isn't that they're especially powerful, but that they do aoe. This makes them better for tanking, because they not only cause draw threat effectively,  but they maintain it well through aoe talents and do more damage.  In fact I prefer it that way because the more goons that surround me, the more I crit on, the lower my cooldowns are. Which means more war cries, which means more people attacking me, which lowers my cooldowns. See what I mean. 

 

In my late game I'm always invulnerable on nightmare on my 2 handed champion. If you're not, perhaps you built improperly? What's your crit chance? Do you get the superb cooldown amulet? Are you using fade touched dawnstone? 

 

As far as damage on bosses. Lol. That's why I bring a rogue honey. I don't need to "might blow bosses" because sera and cole kill them so quick that it's laughable. There is no world in which a tank class is evaluated on it's DPS rather than it's ability to hold aggro and absorb hits. Which gets down to the crux of the argument, which is that because the 2handed champion is better at critting, it draw's more aggro through lower cooldowns on War Cry and takes less damage because of Walking Fortress lower cooldown.

 

EDIT: Also where are you getting this assumption that rogues make better sunderers? 2 handers have a bigger aoe, which means they can sunder more people and they're constantly attacking, which means they apply the sunder constantly. If the argument is crit chance, my champion has 70% crit chance. 

 

I'm not saying 2H champion can not tank you can obviously do but in order to do so you need to have a very specific build and items (that you need to farm unless you use cheat engine in order to have that crazy crit chance you talking about).

 

And you seriously telling me a 2H is a better tank than a sword and shield? AoE means nothing anyway Charging Bull and War Cry do just fine and if you wanna go down the specifics way depending on your positioning both Lunge and Slash and Shield Bash can hit multiple targets with Payback Strike being a 360 attack, which also knocks down/stuns and gets out of cc. You also attack much faster as a SnS warrior.

 

SnS warriors can also get Flow of Battle since passives are weapon agnostic granted you won't be criting as much but as I said the lower CDs with the CD reduction cause the SnS warrior to be constantly spamming abilities which I personally believe is better than basic attacks anyway. 

 

Rogues are better for sundering because building crit chance and damage also increases attack while for warriors you must go down a specific route if you want to crit as much as a rogue and still you can only have so much crit chance and damage while maintaining a good amount of attack. Also AoE sundering only benefits yourself since if you have a rogue in your team whatever they attack will be sundered and mages are not affected by armor.

 

Mages are the masters of AoE damage no matter what kind of warrior you have you can never beat the damage of combos that Mages can do (Pull of the Abyss + Fire Mine + Walking Bomb comes to mind)

 

I never said SnS does better damage than the 2H I only said that Lunge and Slash does more damage than a normal Mighty Blow which is true. Threat generation only matter in the very beginning of the game since after that most things die before War Cry can end. I also never said that 2H champion is bad but that it provides no obvious advantage since the champion tree has no weapon based talent. Every other advantage you mentioned can be argued with.

 

Finally I have nothing against 2H champions, they do work but I personally think that the champion shines while being a SnS warrior the same way a Templar shines while being a 2H one.

[Reman]

 

Finally I have nothing against 2H champions, they do work but I personally think that the champion shines while being a SnS warrior the same way a Templar shines while being a 2H one.

You still remember

[Exalus]

This was one of the most informative discussions on sns/2h subclasses ive ever read.

[actionhero112]

I'm not saying 2H champion can not tank you can obviously do but in order to do so you need to have a very specific build and items (that you need to farm unless you use cheat engine in order to have that crazy crit chance you talking about).

 

And you seriously telling me a 2H is a better tank than a sword and shield? AoE means nothing anyway Charging Bull and War Cry do just fine and if you wanna go down the specifics way depending on your positioning both Lunge and Slash and Shield Bash can hit multiple targets with Payback Strike being a 360 attack, which also knocks down/stuns and gets out of cc. You also attack much faster as a SnS warrior.

 

SnS warriors can also get Flow of Battle since passives are weapon agnostic granted you won't be criting as much but as I said the lower CDs with the CD reduction cause the SnS warrior to be constantly spamming abilities which I personally believe is better than basic attacks anyway. 

 

Rogues are better for sundering because building crit chance and damage also increases attack while for warriors you must go down a specific route if you want to crit as much as a rogue and still you can only have so much crit chance and damage while maintaining a good amount of attack. Also AoE sundering only benefits yourself since if you have a rogue in your team whatever they attack will be sundered and mages are not affected by armor.

 

Mages are the masters of AoE damage no matter what kind of warrior you have you can never beat the damage of combos that Mages can do (Pull of the Abyss + Fire Mine + Walking Bomb comes to mind)

 

I never said SnS does better damage than the 2H I only said that Lunge and Slash does more damage than a normal Mighty Blow which is true. Threat generation only matter in the very beginning of the game since after that most things die before War Cry can end. I also never said that 2H champion is bad but that it provides no obvious advantage since the champion tree has no weapon based talent. Every other advantage you mentioned can be argued with.

 

Finally I have nothing against 2H champions, they do work but I personally think that the champion shines while being a SnS warrior the same way a Templar shines while being a 2H one.

No, you just have to have a good idea of where to find items to make the 2 handed champion build work. That's why I specified late game in my first post. I'm talking after you've farmed out the ornate battleaxe. If you never reach late game, then use sword and board. 

 

AoE means everything when every crit decreases the cooldown on your Walking Fortress. What? 

 

 At the same point you get significant crit on a rogue, you also get significant crit on a warrior. This is because they stem from the same material, Great Bear Hide. Not to mention that getting Shield Breaker is much less inefficient than getting Cheap Shot.

 

Mage damage is pathetic on anything but a player controlled KE or Rift Mage. It's honestly inconsequential to this discussion, because a tank doesn't do damage. It's a tank. The point of AoE is to produce more crits which reduce cooldowns. 

 

Yes a Mighty Blow is outdamaged by Lunge and Slash on things that can't be knocked down. Woooooooo. There are more things that can be knocked down then not. 

 

Again, I've already stated that it's not about the weapon damage steroids, it's about critting. Critting makes your war cry cooldown and walking fortress cooldowns shorter. This is the only part of the champion that matters for tanking. 

 

Templar is better as S&S because it needs the extra armor and masterwork slot as it doesn't have complete invulnerability that the Champion has access to. It also benefits more from shield wall, because again, it doesn't have access to complete invulnerability as a tank, so you're going to need to block dragon breath and arrows, instead of just running through them like a champion. 

 

If you wanted to run a Templar as group DPS, then maybe I'd understand a 2 hander. But then I'd probably just use a reaver for more consistent DPS.

[Reman]

 

 

If you wanted to run a Templar as group DPS, then maybe I'd understand a 2 hander. But then I'd probably just use a reaver for more consistent DPS.

That would make sense if you were talking about your main char, but reaver A.I. sucks big time. 2H templar A.I. is much easier to set up and can really set the group up for some nice AoE dps and stuns, which will help the reaver as that sub-class relies heavily on damage regulation and control in order to not die.

[actionhero112]

That would make sense if you were talking about your main char, but reaver A.I. sucks big time. 2H templar A.I. is much easier to set up and can really set the group up for some nice AoE dps and stuns, which will help the reaver as that sub-class relies heavily on damage regulation and control in order to not die.

A.I sucks at everything. They can't kite effectively, they don't have programmable skill orders and they commonly spam their lowest cost abilities, meaning they never save up for the more meaningful ones, such as static cage. 

 

When I talk about classes I'm assuming I'm taking direct control, either through the inquisitor, or general control of a companion for most fights. 

 

As far as AoE dps goes I'm indifferent to Templar. Wrath Purge is certainly effective, but it's like a 10k aoe nuke every 15-20 seconds with Flow of Battle. I'm not sure that it's worth it when I can do 2k per hit on a reaver, and that works on everything and isn't limited to foes that are stunnable. The main benefit is that it's immediate burst, which has it's benefits, I just have a hard time justifying it to myself when I'm so gimped on bosses that can't be stunned.

 

I really like the extra masterwork on Templar, because I assume that Fade Touched Fustian Velvet and Fade Touched Dawnstone/Silverite are a given, but I really like having Fade Touched Bloodstone for that epic synergy in how you use the skills. 

[Reman]

A.I sucks at everything. They can't kite effectively, they don't have programmable skill orders and they commonly spam their lowest cost abilities, meaning they never save up for the more meaningful ones, such as static cage. 

 

When I talk about classes I'm assuming I'm taking direct control, either through the inquisitor, or general control of a companion for most fights. 

 

As far as AoE dps goes I'm indifferent to Templar. Wrath Purge is certainly effective, but it's like a 10k aoe nuke every 15-20 seconds with Flow of Battle. I'm not sure that it's worth it when I can do 2k per hit on a reaver, and that works on everything and isn't limited to foes that are stunnable. The main benefit is that it's immediate burst, which has it's benefits, I just have a hard time justifying it to myself when I'm so gimped on bosses that can't be stunned.

 

I really like the extra masterwork on Templar, because I assume that Fade Touched Fustian Velvet and Fade Touched Dawnstone/Silverite are a given, but I really like having Fade Touched Bloodstone for that epic synergy in how you use the skills. 

I find that templars burst combo really consumes stamina. So I have Cassandra use gore and trample --> WoH --> Spell Purge. If they aren't dead, then I still find that I have stamina left over for whirlwind + line in the sand+ blessed blades upgrade combo to shorten CD.

 

But yeah, my main complaint about templars is that they rely on no physical effects immunity to dish out their burst dps. SnS templar damage wise is vastly inferior to 2H. The extra masterwork doesn't help considering too much in that 2 SnS WoH+ SP = 1 2H WoH+ SP with the correct build for both in mind and gear wise. 

 

If they did a templar re-work for more support and less conditional burst damage and rather more consistent burst damage, then I would consider running it on my next warrior. 

 

Other than that, I balance out crit chance with attack and some added crit damage bonus on the side. This ensures that Cassandra has only a 7-9 second cd on the templar combo. 

[matcjur]

2h can be better but is much more gear dependant so I advise playing sword and shield and once you get to the later game respec into 2h awesomeness.

[rayx]

SnS would be the obvious choice since none of the Champion's talents is based on weapon damage meaning it does not benefit from the higher 2H damage like the Templar (Wrath of Haven) or the Reaver (Dragon's Rage). 

 

Disagree. Your weapon decides the damage, and TOD will magnify this damage. You can compare the dragon kill speed between 2H and SnS champion. Under the same level of gear and condition, 2H will be faster.

[sethroskull79]

All I can say is I am having a great time as a 2H Champion.  To the Death + Walking Fortress + Whirlwind is nearly unstoppable.  For me the damage of each whirlwind swing goes up in damage from 500 to 1200 to 2000 with each swing after taking about 2K.  I think its because of the To the Death ability.  When that runs out damage goes down.  But it's still nice to dish out that pain.  I am using the Suledin Blade as I haven't crafted anything better yet.