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[rx00]

Honestly personal freedom is sort of a running myth in Thedas anyway.

Your born, you work and you die all in the same province your family has in the same country for centuries unless if situations prompt relocation.

There are some beginning ideas, otherwise people won't be so frighten when they talk about Qun.

 

 

 

And it can't be changed unless human kind is destroyed what would be from human kind point abosuluty retarded to do aslo you ingored that wars are for good of society of course you ignored that unlike mage caused disaster that destroy everything around blights as an example.Empire was under mages control and only mage could go to the black city because of their power no mage no trip to the black city.

 

Really? Blight again? As I said before, against mages for a few ancient magisters' crime under certain social context  which can't be recreated again is ridiculous. You might as well lock all Germany up or prison all politician because we had WW2 and holocaust.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And what does it change? It was concentrated effort of the empire. Means were magical rather than technological, that doesn't change anything though - at that point it was no longer thing of personal power or being a mage.
And as for wars being supposedly for the good of society - how does it change anything? How exactly did Orlesian society benefit from the civil war? Some people in power thinking they deserve more, or that they know better what's best for society, or for world... And results are tragic, often there are no victors at all.

Corypheus wanted to restore the glory of ancient Tevinter - doesn't that count as "for the good of society"?
However, you are right, Blight (something unleashed if not created by a powerful empire that failed at their greatest project) is a great menace, but it has little to do with matter of mages' freedom! It was an effort by the empire, including all its unparalelled military, magical and economical power. A disaster of this magnitude could very well happen even if the mages were working for a mundane ruler who had a stupid idea, be it reaching Golden City or creating a magical superweapon or whatever.
Also, when we're talking about blight, even with Cory's appearance it seems that they unleashed the Blight, true, but they're not responsible for its existance in our world, since Red Lyrium Idol at the very least supposedly predates the trip to Golden City.
 
There were aggressive attempts at converting the Dales that led to the latter closing its borders. As time passed, relations deteriorated even further, leading to some skirmishes. As for Red Crossing, the spark - not the real reason for war - it seemingly went like that:
- an elven girl was killed because, you know, evil elves
- there was a romance between an elf and a human girl, the former willing to pay lip service to Chantry so that they could've been together
- dead elven girl's sister discovered the romance
- elves got scared that the guy could betray them but they didn't manage to properly talk to him, he seemingly went to the human village, so they followed to stop him before he would endanger them
- rather than find the elf, they encountered the girl, she run to them with something in her hand, the elf (the one who lost her sister) shot an arrow. The something in human girl's hand proved to be daisies... she apparently run from her village to meet with her lover and in the dark she took an elf she saw for the one she was there to find...
- a group of men from the village heard a scream and run toward its source, they attacked the elves and got slaughtered
- the lover of the girl arrived and refused to leave, that slowed down the rest and gave people of Red Crossing time to gather in greater numbers and attack; it seems that the elves retreated, but apparently even more deaths ensued
- from that point it escalated further. It doesn't seem that Red Crossing itself got destroyed (at that point at least) but heavy casualties were most likely a fact
After the full-scale war erupted, Dalish initially got the upper hand, they pushed far into Orlais and captured Val Royeaux. The Exalted March, however, finally managed to turn the tide, in the end it defeated Dales. What measures were taken to ensure that elves won't rise again - that much is history. How many people died in the process of forced relocations and other such nicieties we can only guess as the only one who could have any reliable accounts was the victorious Chantry with mindset that retconning out elven involvement in original Exalted March, complete with destruction of any Chantry art depicting elves, was a good idea; any records they have from this period are not only incomplete and old, but most likely deliberately false...

Either way, saying that "they can only blame themselves" about descendants of victims of conquest, even if their ancestors were originally part of a nation that actually started the war... it's just sickening, frankly.
 
We are not slaves, we can decide about ourselves in many areas, mages don't really have any personal freedoms.Of course, then there are Qunari who managed to build a society where everyone is a slave (way to go, Qunari! ). The question is, basically whether people in question are perceived as people or as things or animals - and the treatment of mage's family matters is where the systems shows its true colors the most.
Either way, if you're so uncomfortable with the - very applicable - word "slave", what do you propose as alternative? Prisoner, sentenced for being a mage? But wait, prisoners as we understand the term are generally allowed to have their families... so what else?

1.Eee everything we have empire tevinter witouth mages can do that what tevinter empire did with mages no they can't and yes it does matter if they can blow up world we have no single instance when non-magical empire caused world-threatening disaster.Yes it was as corypheus proves he wanted pull that again and he could so you can go back and forward trying ask dumb questions but yes it changes a lot.

 

2.Corypheus wanted destroy world and as we see in bad future he does so you change facts and no it isn't bandits = corypheus/mages because they are danger despite since beginning that danger is treated accordingly how dangerous it is not just because it is danger.Also blight were result of mages freedom and their corruption so no they did that because they were uncontrolled plain in simple if somone tried to do that under chantry authority he would get killed.

 

3.And so on elves provoked it and get their ass kicked.It is consequence losing the war and to be honest chantry was far more merciful than they had to also elves aren't slaves neither prisoners they are free to leave human society.

 

4.They have if they didn't have any personal freedom how learn blood magic in circle? From what i remember orsino pulled card you have no right to do that toward meredith and FE hold good portion power in circle.They live under society rules like you and that don't make them slaves because they aren't property and forced to work just like people that are subjected to quarantine.

 

Did you ever saw inmate living with his family in prison because i don't also mages can contact own family pretty much bethany and finn were good examples of that.

 

 

 

Really? Blight again? As I said before, against mages for a few ancient magisters' crime under certain social context  which can't be recreated again is ridiculous. You might as well lock all Germany up or prison all politician because we had WW2 and holocaust.

Your comment is laughable considering that it repeated with single mage in dai not mention another huge amount of disaster caused by simple single mage.

[Master Warder Z_]

There are some beginning ideas, otherwise people won't be so frighten when they talk about Qun.

It likely wouldn't bother more then the nobles in terms of how it actually effected them.

[Steelcan]

It likely wouldn't bother more then the nobles in terms of how it actually effected them.

instead of making bread for a noble you make bread for the Qun

 

then live long into your thirties

[Eliastion]

1.(...)we have no single instance when non-magical empire caused world-threatening disaster.

And how many non-legendary empires the scale of Tevinter do we really know about? Also, "non-magical" empire doesn't mean "empire without magic", just one where political power isn't linked with magical power. They're perfectly capable of doing stupid things with magic despite not being mages themselves.
 

2.Corypheus wanted destroy world and as we see in bad future he does so you change facts and no it isn't bandits = corypheus/mages because they are danger despite since beginning that danger is treated accordingly how dangerous it is not just because it is danger.Also blight were result of mages freedom and their corruption so no they did that because they were uncontrolled plain in simple if somone tried to do that under chantry authority he would get killed.

Corypheus was mad, but he did not want to destroy the world, what you witness in Bad Future is not his victory as your disappearance (along with the Anchor) actually foiled his plans.

 

3.And so on elves provoked it and get their ass kicked.It is consequence losing the war and to be honest chantry was far more merciful than they had to also elves aren't slaves neither prisoners they are free to leave human society.

 

So, being a side in war is provocation. I need to write it somewhere, this profound wisdom...

Also, no, I don't think they could be any less merciful. Basically, despite all their efforts at vilifying the elves, a genocide would still be a problem for religious organization trying to be a guardian of morality. They did whatever they could to destroy the people of Dales without losing any real chance to paint themselves as morally superior. 
 

4.They have if they didn't have any personal freedom how learn blood magic in circle?

 

Errrm. Just as in all the other places - illegally and in secret?

 

From what i remember orsino pulled card you have no right to do that toward meredith and FE hold good portion power in circle.They live under society rules like you and that don't make them slaves because they aren't property and forced to work just like people that are subjected to quarantine.

 

They have choice: they can be lobotomized or they can study magic on behalf of Circle, though they are not expected to necessarily produce results, so I guess they can slack as much as they want, that's true.
 

Did you ever saw inmate living with his family in prison because i don't also mages can contact own family pretty much bethany and finn were good examples of that.

 

When an inmate gives birth, their children aren't usually shipped to another country immidiately.
 

Your comment is laughable considering that it repeated with single mage in dai not mention another huge amount of disaster caused by simple single mage.

 

Using power borrowed from a god along with that he had left from that great Tevinter project...

[TheKomandorShepard]

And how many non-legendary empires the scale of Tevinter do we really know about? Also, "non-magical" empire doesn't mean "empire without magic", just one where political power isn't linked with magical power. They're perfectly capable of doing stupid things with magic despite not being mages themselves.
 

Corypheus was mad, but he did not want to destroy the world, what you witness in Bad Future is not his victory as your disappearance (along with the Anchor) actually foiled his plans.

 

So, being a side in war is provocation. I need to write it somewhere, this profound wisdom...

Also, no, I don't think they could be any less merciful. Basically, despite all their efforts at vilifying the elves, a genocide would still be a problem for religious organization trying to be a guardian of morality. They did whatever they could to destroy the people of Dales without losing any real chance to paint themselves as morally superior. 
 

Errrm. Just as in all the other places - illegally and in secret?

 

They have choice: they can be lobotomized or they can study magic on behalf of Circle, though they are not expected to necessarily produce results, so I guess they can slack as much as they want, that's true.
 

When an inmate gives birth, their children aren't usually shipped to another country immidiately.
 

Using power borrowed from a god along with that he had left from that great Tevinter project...

 

1.As i said not rly magic is under chantry control and when some peoples can escape it that is why system was bad as i said we don't have single incident where non-mages did that what mages nor they can in the end you always need mage and that is why mages need to be underl control.

 

2.Not at all he wanted to become god nor he cared that he may blow up world in doing that we saw that in bad future and near the end of the game so another power hungry mage that is ready to blow up world. In fact he almost did that once he wanted do that second time.

 

3.Did i said that or perhaps you said that and pointed that i have said that to look me bad?Pretty much elves started killing spree.

And no they give them homes and spared their lives when they didn't have to despite elves attacked them and lost war if chantry wanted they could crush them and yet they didn't.

 

4.Oh so they have enough freedom to have secrets to pretty much create large groups of blood mages

 

5.From what i know they are taken away from them so welp...

 

6.And yet he could do that again not only that but he had more than that way and even dorian discuss that there will be mages that will try to enter physically to the fade.So no it is real threat and this is only one of thousands ways to mage create disaster. 

[Eliastion]

1.As i said not rly magic is under chantry control and when some peoples can escape it that is why system was bad as i said we don't have single incident where non-mages did that what mages nor they can in the end you always need mage and that is why mages need to be underl control.

But that's not what I mean. Mages under control are controlled by someone. The fact that they're not the ones in control doesn't mean their power will be used any more responsibly. It could be just the opposite since mages would care for their own safety more than someone else wishing to use their power.
 

2.Not at all he wanted to become god nor he cared that he may blow up world in doing that we saw that in bad future and near the end of the game so another power hungry mage that is ready to blow up world. In fact he almost did that once he wanted do that second time.

He wanted to become a new god and rebuild Tevinter. We saw aftermatch of his plans failing due to lack of Anchor.
 

3.Did i said that or perhaps you said that and pointed that i have said that to look me bad?Pretty much elves started killing spree.

There is no evidence confirming that, you just assume this being the case.

And no they give them homes and spared their lives when they didn't have to despite elves attacked them and lost war if chantry wanted they could crush them and yet they didn't.

They forcibly migrated civilian population to their "new homes". This obviously led to heavy casualties (just as Long Walk had its victims). They wanted to crush them and they did.
 

4.Oh so they have enough freedom to have secrets to pretty much create large groups of blood mages

Slaves have many secrets unless they're mind-controlled.
 

5.From what i know they are taken away from them so welp...

I guess it depends on the country, but the contact generally isn't forcibly severed.
 

6.And yet he could do that again not only that but he had more than that way and even dorian discuss that there will be mages that will try to enter physically to the fade.So no it is real threat and this is only one of thousands ways to mage create disaster.

I was talking about that "again", he did require god's assistance both times.

[The Baconer]

It likely wouldn't bother more then the nobles in terms of how it actually effected them.

 

People who don't want to give up their religion, I guess. Or people who wish to stay within the presence of their families.

 

Then, of course, mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

But that's not what I mean. Mages under control are controlled by someone. The fact that they're not the ones in control doesn't mean their power will be used any more responsibly. It could be just the opposite since mages would care for their own safety more than someone else wishing to use their power.
 
He wanted to become a new god and rebuild Tevinter. We saw aftermatch of his plans failing due to lack of Anchor.
 
There is no evidence confirming that, you just assume this being the case.

They forcibly migrated civilian population to their "new homes". This obviously led to heavy casualties (just as Long Walk had its victims). They wanted to crush them and they did.
 
Slaves have many secrets unless they're mind-controlled.
 
I guess it depends on the country, but the contact generally isn't forcibly severed.
 
I was talking about that "again", he did require god's assistance both times.

 

Yes it means as i said that is whole point of control and chantry did that carefully for almost 1000 years not abusing magic but protecting world from it sadly sytem was broken in some places.

 

As i see you ignore what i have said once again he tried to destroy world near the end of the game also he almost did last time and now he tries to repeat action that almost destroyed world not giving damn about world once again he pleads for disaster nor he cares if he cause one so he does what tevinter mages did that caused blight... end of the story.   

 

Becaue elves were dangerous and they proved that by that war also they lost and as i said elves aren't forced to live in human society they can leave so nope their country was destroyed rightfully as they lost war and no chantry didn't destroy elves chantry spared them and gave them place to live when they could kill them so yes it was mercy.

 

Again slave you can scream as loud you can circles aren't slavery devs said it as well done here.

 

It is child is taken away mother don't have anything to say in that matter.

 

oh god    ... could he find multiple ways? Yes he could Were they available for him. Yes they were.  Could he cause the end of the world . Yes he could.

[Master Warder Z_]

instead of making bread for a noble you make bread for the Qun

then live long into your thirties

Until you get dieheria and die a horrible sepsis related death.

Good times.

[Master Warder Z_]

People who don't want to give up their religion, I guess. Or people who wish to stay within the presence of their families.

Then, of course, mages.

Well monarchs can do all that just as easily.

[The Baconer]

Well monarchs can do all that just as easily.

 

They can, but it's not routine, unlike the Qun. Aside from suppressing religions other than Andrastianism, I guess.

[Eliastion]

Yes it means as i said that is whole point of control and chantry did that carefully for almost 1000 years not abusing magic but protecting world from it sadly sytem was broken in some places.
 
As i see you ignore what i have said once again he tried to destroy world near the end of the game also he almost did last time and now he tries to repeat action that almost destroyed world not giving damn about world once again he pleads for disaster nor he cares if he cause one so he does what tevinter mages did that caused blight... end of the story.   

As I see, you keep flinging that argument around, making one incident made possible by very special circumstances representative for all the mages. But we've talked it around more than once already, so let's drop it since each iteration is us saying pretty much the same things over and over again.
 

Becaue elves were dangerous and they proved that by that war also they lost and as i said elves aren't forced to live in human society they can leave so nope their country was destroyed rightfully as they lost war and no chantry didn't destroy elves chantry spared them and gave them place to live when they could kill them so yes it was mercy.

But they couldn't, that's the point. It would've been disastrous for them. Also, exterminating a couple hundred thousand people isn't as easy as it would seem especially when the people you want to exterminate catch up on the fact that they're dead if you get to them.
Also, your logic of "their country was destroyed rightfully as they lost war" is... impressive. Sorry if I disagree with it, regardless. There are certain additional requirement necessary before I find it suitable to even consider conquest of any kind as being done "rightfully".

Oh, and that

(...)elves aren't forced to live in human society they can leave(...)

 

Is a really, really funny "argument". Though they're not slaves, so it admittedly is an improvement compared to Tevinter times.
 

Again slave you can scream as loud you can circles aren't slavery devs said it as well done here.

 

Another thing we talked about three times over, I could respond but it would be just another iteration of you trying to assert fundamental difference between a slave and a person with all power over their own life indefinitely given to some third party despite doing nothing wrong and being perfectly sane...
 

It is child is taken away mother don't have anything to say in that matter.

 

But where does your knowledge come from?

Obvious things to do with a baby would be letting it be raised by its mother in prison, at least for a time, or sending it to her relatives, don't you agree?

 

oh god    ... could he find multiple ways? Yes he could Were they available for him. Yes they were.  Could he cause the end of the world . Yes he could.

 

But he didn't manage to find them. Iirc he was stuck trying to get back the anchor that slipped him. We can assume he tried Eluvians too, during that year, but they didn't work... that's why Alexius tries to find a way for him to go back in time to before the breach. That postapo was Cory's failure, not success, regardles of how well the military takeover of the South went.

[TheKomandorShepard]

As I see, you keep flinging that argument around, making one incident made possible by very special circumstances representative for all the mages. But we've talked it around more than once already, so let's drop it since each iteration is us saying pretty much the same things over and over again.
 

But they couldn't, that's the point. It would've been disastrous for them. Also, exterminating a couple hundred thousand people isn't as easy as it would seem especially when the people you want to exterminate catch up on the fact that they're dead if you get to them.
Also, your logic of "their country was destroyed rightfully as they lost war" is... impressive. Sorry if I disagree with it, regardless. There are certain additional requirement necessary before I find it suitable to even consider conquest of any kind as being done "rightfully".

Oh, and that

Is a really, really funny "argument". Though they're not slaves, so it admittedly is an improvement compared to Tevinter times.
 

Another thing we talked about three times over, I could respond but it would be just another iteration of you trying to assert fundamental difference between a slave and a person with all power over their own life indefinitely given to some third party despite doing nothing wrong and being perfectly sane...
 

But where does your knowledge come from?

Obvious things to do with a baby would be letting it be raised by its mother in prison, at least for a time, or sending it to her relatives, don't you agree?

 

But he didn't manage to find them. Iirc he was stuck trying to get back the anchor that slipped him. We can assume he tried Eluvians too, during that year, but they didn't work... that's why Alexius tries to find a way for him to go back in time to before the breach. That postapo was Cory's failure, not success, regardles of how well the military takeover of the South went.

 

 

This is not one incident because we had more than one such incident in series even in short time periods and shows what is price of mages freedom.Of course they could who would stop them elves who already lost?

It is law of nature that country that lose the war have their fate in their opponent hands next time don't seek fight with stronger than you.

 

It is true argument.

 

And no goverment have you under control and dictates what you can do and what you can't and what you have to do plain and simple it is same in that situation with that more restrictions are required to deal with mages if you broke law you are punished same are mages inmates aren't slaves and mages have far much better conditions than even in our times prisons.

 

Child goes either to relatives or foster family and i disagree.

 

He got anchor he caused breach and almost destroyed world with luck that inquisitor saved the day then the tried again the same so no he could destroy world and almost did in his power hunger in fact he did it at least 3 times . So yes he destroyed world in bad future and that what matters.

[Eliastion]

Of course they could who would stop them elves who already lost?
It is law of nature that country that lose the war have their fate in their opponent hands next time don't seek fight with stronger than you.

You don't get it. There are two main reasons why they couldn't:
1. They would paint themselves as villains, that would be disastrous to them. PR is important. More so when you're a religeous organization trying to justify conquest made possible because you managed to convince everyone it's a righteous defensive war. Murdering every woman and child tends to be viewed badly even if those are women and children from Evil Elven Empire TM.
2. They had no manpower to properly conduct genocide. The war was over and it was won thanks to religeous volunteers. Mother Giselle says that other countries did not send their armies and armies of Orlais got their asses handed to them in the first part of the war. After zealots went home, Orlais didn't have much of an army to speak of, while extermination of population possibly comparable to that of your own kingdom... isn't something that can be done easily or quickly or, most importantly, quietly. If they actually tried, the people of the Dales would just hide (there are quite a lot forests in Dales and the population was pretty scattered with but one big city in the whole realm) and make occupation of Dales a living hell for Orlais. And a bloody guerrilla war was NOT what Orlais needed or wanted.
The forced relocation program was harsh, but it was not as openly hostile - elves definitely weren't happy about that, but that wasn't drastic enough for non-combatants to suddenly throw their lives on the line.

Oh, and then there's the "Dales seeking fight with Orlais/Chantry" idea that makes no sense and has no evidence that would support it. Unless not willing to submit is "seeking a fight". Political situation deteriorated but Dales were isolationist, not expansionist - why would they seek a fight? If anyone actively wanted a war it was Orlais, they were going about that religious conquest thing for better part of their early history...
 

It is true argument.

"It's not domestic abuse if he didn't chain her to the refrigerator! She could leave!" kind of argument. Yeah, she could leave.
 

And no goverment have you under control and dictates what you can do and what you can't and what you have to do plain and simple it is same in that situation with that more restrictions are required to deal with mages if you broke law you are punished same are mages inmates aren't slaves and mages have far much better conditions than even in our times prisons.

 

Yeah, yeah, I got it that you don't see the difference. As I said, let's move on, we won't get anywhere with this topic.
 

Child goes either to relatives or foster family and i disagree.

 

In USA it stopped being raised by mother in prison for economical reasons and the decision what to do with it (even if it could not stay with mother) remained mother's. Please do find sources where children born in prison are legally taken from mothers and shipped to another country, that would be most interesting.

 

He got anchor he caused breach and almost destroyed world with luck that inquisitor saved the day then the tried again the same so no he could destroy world and almost did in his power hunger in fact he did it at least 3 times . So yes he destroyed world in bad future and that what matters.

 

The only time he was (perhaps) actively trying to mess things up was that third time. The first two were no less righteous than any war of conquest you like to glorify. Either way, the first time it was Tevinter , not a bunch of mages, and the second time (with the third closely linked) it was possible thanks to god's power, not his personal as a mage, despite all his power.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You don't get it. There are two main reasons why they couldn't:
1. They would paint themselves as villains, that would be disastrous to them. PR is important. More so when you're a religeous organization trying to justify conquest made possible because you managed to convince everyone it's a righteous defensive war. Murdering every woman and child tends to be viewed badly even if those are women and children from Evil Elven Empire TM.
2. They had no manpower to properly conduct genocide. The war was over and it was won thanks to religeous volunteers. Mother Giselle says that other countries did not send their armies and armies of Orlais got their asses handed to them in the first part of the war. After zealots went home, Orlais didn't have much of an army to speak of, while extermination of population possibly comparable to that of your own kingdom... isn't something that can be done easily or quickly or, most importantly, quietly. If they actually tried, the people of the Dales would just hide (there are quite a lot forests in Dales and the population was pretty scattered with but one big city in the whole realm) and make occupation of Dales a living hell for Orlais. And a bloody guerrilla war was NOT what Orlais needed or wanted.
The forced relocation program was harsh, but it was not as openly hostile - elves definitely weren't happy about that, but that wasn't drastic enough for non-combatants to suddenly throw their lives on the line.

Oh, and then there's the "Dales seeking fight with Orlais/Chantry" idea that makes no sense and has no evidence that would support it. Unless not willing to submit is "seeking a fight". Political situation deteriorated but Dales were isolationist, not expansionist - why would they seek a fight? If anyone actively wanted a war it was Orlais, they were going about that religious conquest thing for better part of their early history...
 

"It's not domestic abuse if he didn't chain her to the refrigerator! She could leave!" kind of argument. Yeah, she could leave.
 

Yeah, yeah, I got it that you don't see the difference. As I said, let's move on, we won't get anywhere with this topic.
 

In USA it stopped being raised by mother in prison for economical reasons and the decision what to do with it (even if it could not stay with mother) remained mother's. Please do find sources where children born in prison are legally taken from mothers and shipped to another country, that would be most interesting.

 

The only time he was (perhaps) actively trying to mess things up was that third time. The first two were no less righteous than any war of conquest you like to glorify. Either way, the first time it was Tevinter , not a bunch of mages, and the second time (with the third closely linked) it was possible thanks to god's power, not his personal as a mage, despite all his power.

 

That is entirely not true why

They wouldn't paint themselves as villains because because elves already had horrible reputation and second so they would get away with that pretty much like they did with killing qunari in rivain that didn't want to convert.

They for certain didn't lack power to do such and even then could hunt them down.

As i said they weren't forced to anything outside giving up their culture they were given home and with that how some people feel about elves chantry have nothing to do.

 

And as i said and as devs said circles are at worst prison not slavery.

 

And yet that was taken from her , you can read that in the internet and where they are taken doesn't matter what matters that they are taken away like it or not same in circles and we deal with medieval times so standarts still are high.

 

You are ridiculous just ridiculous i have no words now you are preaching how corypheus was messiah and his cause righteous despite he almost destroyed world in power hunger 3 times .And no all he needed was orb that he had access to one that wat matters. It is obvs at this point that you have no arguments if you make up such ridiculous.

[Eliastion]

That is entirely not true why
They wouldn't paint themselves as villains because because elves already had horrible reputation and second so they would get away with that pretty much like they did with killing qunari in rivain that didn't want to convert.
They for certain didn't lack power to do such and even then could hunt them down.
As i said they weren't forced to anything outside giving up their culture they were given home and with that how some people feel about elves chantry have nothing to do.

Your belief in omnipotence of victorious army conquering a kingdom is interesting, but hardly realistic.
 

And as i said and as devs said circles are at worst prison not slavery.

And as I said, devs' opinion on the matter isn't really important. When you bring up arguments like "it's not slavery since they're not forced to work" we can disagree but that's a good argument. What the devs said, on the other hand, is opinion. I'm sure they ddidn't intend it to be slavery and you're welcome to agree with them that it isn't, as it's a borderline case - as I said, you have some valid arguments. But "the devs said it" isn't one of them, not when we get to witness reality and can make the call ourselves.
 

And yet that was taken from her , you can read that in the internet and where they are taken doesn't matter what matters that they are taken away like it or not same in circles and we deal with medieval times so standarts still are high.

I pity you if "where they are taken doesn't matter" in your opinion and having the mother send her child to relatives is in your opinion equal to hiding it away in another country. Also, the reasons to not let women raise their children in jails are practical - and Chantry still took responsibility (and expenses) of raising the child on themselves. The separation was, quite obviously, an element of policy intended to prevent mages from having families, even within the Circle itself.
Oh, and one another thing - it's fantasy, not medieval setting. If you try to expect medieval reality, you'll find yourself very disappointed, seeing as it's mostly "swords, armors and kings" with other aspects wildly different from any historical point of reference.
 

You are ridiculous just ridiculous i have no words now you are preaching how corypheus was messiah and his cause righteous despite he almost destroyed world in power hunger 3 times .And no all he needed was orb that he had access to one that wat matters. It is obvs at this point that you have no arguments if you make up such ridiculous.

His cause was about as righteous as Exalted March on the Dales, just potentially more destructive thanks to god's help... And the orb WAS a bit of god's help (also he actually got it from a dumb@ss god).
The fact that somebody sees himself as righteous (as pretty much each and every conqueror ever) doesn't make him so. But you, for some reason, wish to call some conquests righteous if only by virtue of them doing it supposedly "for good of society" while you deny the same courtesy to the others. What is the difference, what makes a conquest righteous? Success?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Your belief in omnipotence of victorious army conquering a kingdom is interesting, but hardly realistic.
 
And as I said, devs' opinion on the matter isn't really important. When you bring up arguments like "it's not slavery since they're not forced to work" we can disagree but that's a good argument. What the devs said, on the other hand, is opinion. I'm sure they ddidn't intend it to be slavery and you're welcome to agree with them that it isn't, as it's a borderline case - as I said, you have some valid arguments. But "the devs said it" isn't one of them, not when we get to witness reality and can make the call ourselves.
 
I pity you if "where they are taken doesn't matter" in your opinion and having the mother send her child to relatives is in your opinion equal to hiding it away in another country. Also, the reasons to not let women raise their children in jails are practical - and Chantry still took responsibility (and expenses) of raising the child on themselves. The separation was, quite obviously, an element of policy intended to prevent mages from having families, even within the Circle itself.
Oh, and one another thing - it's fantasy, not medieval setting. If you try to expect medieval reality, you'll find yourself very disappointed, seeing as it's mostly "swords, armors and kings" with other aspects wildly different from any historical point of reference.
 
His cause was about as righteous as Exalted March on the Dales, just potentially more destructive thanks to god's help... And the orb WAS a bit of god's help (also he actually got it from a dumb@ss god).
The fact that somebody sees himself as righteous (as pretty much each and every conqueror ever) doesn't make him so. But you, for some reason, wish to call some conquests righteous if only by virtue of them doing it supposedly "for good of society" while you deny the same courtesy to the others. What is the difference, what makes a conquest righteous? Success?

 

1.Omnipotence and holding fate of your defeated opponent 2 different things.

 

2.What devs said isn't an opinion pretty much i remember they had post (now i wouldn't be able to find it) explaining why circles aren't slavery and i have arguments as well plain and simple don't qualify as slavery because mages aren't treated as slaves (they don't trade them , they don't froce them to work and they don't force them to doing anything and they have rights) they forced however to abiding law (as everyone).

 

3.So reason was practical as well because as far i can't find single 1 rule in circles that is created out of spite and have no reason behind it.Also you ignored part that it goes either to relatives or foster family mother can't keep child anyway and as i noted thedas is pretty much medieval like times they don't have organizations that deal with that such things they have only orphanages and it that case child goes to the chantry orphanage what is in fact smiliar and have some practical reasons.

 

It is fantasy placed in medieval like times of course there as some differences like magic ,monsters and some differences between our Middle Ages and their but pretty much spirit is done with that. 

 

4.What matter he found it and could cause destruction and not rly his reason was power hunger and he was self-centred and as i said he could bring and once he did and he would again bring apocalyptic disaster destroying human kind as well other races.And as i said what matter that he could do it and he once did it and tried twice knowing he could blow up world he didn't care.Exalted marches never brought end of the world neither they can so comparing it is ridiculous at worst 1 society (and it is never about killing those peoples as we saw with elves) was at stake never world and in fact wars are almost never about destroying people rather than they are about expansion
.
 

[Eliastion]

1.Omnipotence and holding fate of your defeated opponent 2 different things.

Not if you completely ignore practical limitations.
 

2.What devs said isn't an opinion pretty much i remember they had post (now i wouldn't be able to find it) explaining why circles aren't slavery and i have arguments as well plain and simple don't qualify as slavery because mages aren't treated as slaves (they don't trade them , they don't froce them to work and they don't force them to doing anything and they have rights) they forced however to abiding law (as everyone).

 

Slavery without slave trade did (perhaps does) exist, they don't explicitly force them to work (usually) and that's your strongest argument, but it too is not sufficient. They hardly have any rights in practice, their lives are not their own and this basic fact lies is central for the issue of being a slave or a free person.
 

 

3.So reason was practical as well because as far i can't find single 1 rule in circles that is created out of spite and have no reason behind it.Also you ignored part that it goes either to relatives or foster family mother can't keep child anyway and as i noted thedas is pretty much medieval like times they don't have organizations that deal with that such things they have only orphanages and it that case child goes to the chantry orphanage what is in fact smiliar and have some practical reasons.

Mother can't keep the baby in prison but she remains its mother and she does to some extent decide its fate. In circle she's denied ANY right to her child with NO input from her. Also, whether the laws are created out of spite or out of fear, they are inhuman and they do reduce mages pretty much to things or animals instead of people.
 

It is fantasy placed in medieval like times of course there as some differences like magic ,monsters and some differences between our Middle Ages and their but pretty much spirit is done with that. 

 

Thedas is hardly medieval beyond decorations.
 

4.What matter he found it and could cause destruction and not rly his reason was power hunger and he was self-centred and as i said he could bring and once he did and he would again bring apocalyptic disaster destroying human kind as well other races.And as i said what matter that he could do it and he once did it and tried twice knowing he could blow up world he didn't care.Exalted marches never brought end of the world neither they can so comparing it is ridiculous at worst 1 society (and it is never about killing those peoples as we saw with elves) was at stake never world and in fact wars are almost never about destroying people rather than they are about expansion

 

You stick to the results (made possible by OUTSIDE power Cory acquired) but what I point out is that everyone going to war, trying attain more power, trying to conquer something, even trying to liberate something  - they all have their reasons, motivations and they all consider themselves to be the good guys. And if they do things they consider bad, those are (obviously) acceptable sacrifices.

Also, as I said, all the worst consequences of Cory's schemes were the ones NOT intended by him, it was him failing that awakened the blight, then it was his failing that led to uncontrollable Breach spreading.

You seem to assume I defend Cory as being right, I don't. His example is just to show you how ridiculous is your notion that having great plans supposedly benefiting some society is an excuse for anything. He wanted to re-create Tevinter as the greatest empire, finally with a god that would care for setting world straight (by straight meaning, obviously, "the way Cory wanted it to be"). He just had additional power borrowed from a god to try and use for his goals.

 

 

EDIT:

I just realized how heavily we've managed to derail this thread... Seeing as (at least it seems like that to me) we managed to explain both our opinions on most subjects AND it is extremely unlikely that any of us will be convinced to the other's position, I think it would be best to stop this discussion here. I'll read any answer you give, of course (it would be extremely rude not to do so, seeing how long we've debated here) but I'll do my best to stop myself from posting in reply  

[TheKomandorShepard]

Not if you completely ignore practical limitations.
 

Slavery without slave trade did (perhaps does) exist, they don't explicitly force them to work (usually) and that's your strongest argument, but it too is not sufficient. They hardly have any rights in practice, their lives are not their own and this basic fact lies is central for the issue of being a slave or a free person.
 

 

Mother can't keep the baby in prison but she remains its mother and she does to some extent decide its fate. In circle she's denied ANY right to her child with NO input from her. Also, whether the laws are created out of spite or out of fear, they are inhuman and they do reduce mages pretty much to things or animals instead of people.
 

Thedas is hardly medieval beyond decorations.
 

You stick to the results (made possible by OUTSIDE power Cory acquired) but what I point out is that everyone going to war, trying attain more power, trying to conquer something, even trying to liberate something  - they all have their reasons, motivations and they all consider themselves to be the good guys. And if they do things they consider bad, those are (obviously) acceptable sacrifices.

Also, as I said, all the worst consequences of Cory's schemes were the ones NOT intended by him, it was him failing that awakened the blight, then it was his failing that led to uncontrollable Breach spreading.

You seem to assume I defend Cory as being right, I don't. His example is just to show you how ridiculous is your notion that having great plans supposedly benefiting some society is an excuse for anything. He wanted to re-create Tevinter as the greatest empire, finally with a god that would care for setting world straight (by straight meaning, obviously, "the way Cory wanted it to be"). He just had additional power borrowed from a god to try and use for his goals.

 

1.I glad you agreed with me

There weren't any practical limitations as nothing could stop them and very few would care.

 

2.That is bullshit and nothing more than pro-mage propaganda mages have no rights please... they are free to have own opinion and establish political groups , they have rights to privacy ,if mage is murdered there will be investigation so there is law that protecs their lives and also they can't be made tranquil after harrowing.So yes mages have plnety rights and what you have said is normal bs. I don't even know why i argue here circles aren't slavery even WoG says that and even it don't fit defition of slavery.

 

3.Not at all as i said child goes away and mother eventually can get child back if she will get out of jail and that dependent whether the authorities will agree or not and you ignore fact that mages never leave circle excluding times when they can with permission temporarily also i said Middle Ages.Oh please don't even bother with using morality argument morality is based on social standards and when you see something as inhuman other cultures may see not and when you may see something perfectly normal other culture may see that as immoral for example in your society aftr 200 years things you see as fine may be wrong.It funny how pretty hypocritically you protect our system in that matter when pretty circle system in that matter works almost identically to ours and mother is separated from her children and chilrden goes to somone else.      

 

Rly? do i have to even comment on that?

 

4.And results is that what matters are you... i don't even... as i said knives aren't banned like nuclear bombs only because end result despite .At this point this conversation is just ridiculous and goes in circle and literally makes this conversation with you arguing that nuclear bombs shouldn't be illegal if knife isn't because both are dangerous when i try to explain it is not about that they are dangerous it is about how dangerous they are and then you tell me that i talk about result no **** sherlock.

And again it wasn't outside coypheus because he fu**** did it so yes it was in his power.

And no it isn't f**** ridiculous because blowing up world by individual (mage) isn't equal to war that pretty much mostly is about expansion not complete annihilation of people and wars is something that society does not single individual.

 

And no corypheus knew what he was doing he already did that once and almost destroyed world he tried do that second time so don't tell me how corypheus didn't knew what he was doing and how he cared about not destroying world not mention pretty much that is what he tried to do near the end of dai proving him being nothing more than power-hungry mage lunatic that was ready to blow up world.