244 réponses à ce sujet

[Jackums]

Why does Leliana's election have to end in indefinite peace to be valid? No Divine will result in lasting peace. Thus arguing Leliana's ending with things like, "It won't last," is redundant. OK? And neither will Cassandra's or Vivienne's. Moot point.

 

Leliana is a revolutionary. Eliminating religious bigotry and centuries-old dogmas grounded in fear-mongering is something neither of the other Divines do. Leliana's election is less about the short-term stability of a nation and more about lasting change in the perceptions of thousands. The old system will never truly return once Leliana imposes her changes, and that's her value as Divine.

 

Regardless, it's telling when someone has to put down the opposing choices to further validate their own. This anti-Leliana crowd is getting really tedious. If your own preference is so clearly superior, that should speak for itself.

[Augustei]

This thread is golden, I'm sorry I missed the last one

[HuldraDancer]

I'm still cycling through which one I like better but I do admit I get a little 'ummm nooooooo go away crazy lady please' when Leliana starts talking about being Divine harden or soften it still comes out a little scary. Though the thing about her staying with the Warden if romanced by them and if she is Divine (if that is indeed true) is kind of stupid imo especially since I've heard that Cassandra breaks up with you if she becomes Divine (I've yet to try that so I don't know if thats true or not) I can't say Leliana is the worst though since that all highly depends on what Inquisitor I'm rolling at the time, but she does give off crazy vibes.

[Jackums]

This thread was created in response to certain posters who up and declared their way is the only right way, but sure whatever. Was that clear enough for you is my English not on point today. Never know when I can say one thing and mean another eh?

So your response to immaturity is immaturity?

 

Anyway, the hostility wasn't needed. I'm not on the forums constantly, so I didn't see this other thread. Explanation would've been enough.

[Drasanil]

Why does Leliana's election have to end in indefinite peace to be valid? No Divine will result in lasting peace. Thus arguing Leliana's ending with things like, "It won't last," is redundant. OK? And neither will Cassandra's or Vivienne's. Moot point.

 

Leliana is a revolutionary. Eliminating religious bigotry and centuries-old dogmas grounded in fear-mongering is something neither of the other Divines do. Leliana's election is less about the short-term stability of a nation and more about lasting change in the perceptions of thousands. The old system will never truly return once Leliana imposes her changes, and that's her value as Divine.

 

You do realise that if enough people are unhappy with Leliana's changes [given she's a radical revolutionary that's likely going to be the case] she's just as likely to create a vehement backlash in the long term as she is to affect lasting change right? In fact, the only reason she even has even odds as far as I am concerned is because she's a known writer's pet. 

[Red of Rivia]

She is Che Guevara. Say it Already.

[Shadow Fox]

You do realise that if enough people are unhappy with Leliana's changes [given she's a radical revolutionary that's likely going to be the case] she's just as likely to create a vehement backlash in the long term as she is to affect lasting change right? In fact, the only reason she even has even odds as far as I am concerned is because she's a known writer's pet. 

Especially if she does something stupid during her reign...

 

Like murder everyone who criticizes her. 

[Rekkampum]

I like Leliana. She's been the Left Hand and seen the gritty parts of politics, actually had a meaningful friendship with Justinia so I'm certain she understands issues many would otherwise have no grasp of. Each of them has their own vision. Leliana wants to make the Chantry more receptive and less insular and has the means and drive to do it. What makes it so interesting is that who she really is in comparison to who we thought she was shows just how skilled - and possibly manipulative - she is at making sure she hides her personal feelings and that which she considers a weakness from others. I've heard some say her ending is way too unrealistic and has no cost when it literally alludes to just how determined she is to make sure her goals are met and enemies are crushed. Not to mention the mages finally do form their group without the weight of the Chantry bearing down on them, so it's not exactly as simplistic as some paint it. I think it shows that with freedom and opportunity, those who are truly just about a cause will find ways to govern themselves, and for the moment, it's working. Having a more inclusive perspective obviously helps that too.

 

I think it just boils down to one's political stance re: the DA universe, because each of them have their own strengths and weaknesses, although Viv's is a favorite of mine given how unexpectedly different it was in comparison to the typical mage. I won't be surprised if Word of God makes Cassandra canon in bioware's "offiicial" version. They were screaming it the entire time that arc popped up.

[Eliastion]

I'm not an hypocrite. I would be one if I used violence for my personal benefit, wich is what the old Chantry does. But no, I use it to change things for the better. People don't accept it, so they need to be eliminated before the become an problem. Religion is all about control of the masses, and guess what? Humans are dumb. I'm just trying to set the course to an more productive one, whatever it takes.

 

 

Using violence to make the world better (because obviously you know best what's better) - it's the single most dangerous idea that changes religions and ideologies into murderous regimes. That's EXACTLY the reason why

 

 

(...) the kingdoms use the religion to commit unspeakable acts and feel totally justified about it.

Because they're allowed to use any means and commit any crime just for the sake of making world better.

Mass genocide becomes a-ok if you kill heathens who prevent the world from being as it should be.

Killing anyone who opposes you is a good thing - since obviously they stand in the way of good (which you, obviiously, represent).

 

In fact, while Chantry indeed does care for personal/institutional power a lot, the Qunari are the perfect example of murderous self-righteousness: their whole conquest is literally driven by their desire to change ethings for better. "Changing things for better" meaning, obviously, converting everyone to Qun to bring stability, discipline, equality, purpose and peace.

[Miggs]

Miserable whiny wench that spends half her time sneaking about assassinating anyone that doesn't agree!

 

Oh yeah...perfect Divine!

 

vote for Mother Gisselle.

[leaguer of one]

I'm still cycling through which one I like better but I do admit I get a little 'ummm nooooooo go away crazy lady please' when Leliana starts talking about being Divine harden or soften it still comes out a little scary. Though the thing about her staying with the Warden if romanced by them and if she is Divine (if that is indeed true) is kind of stupid imo especially since I've heard that Cassandra breaks up with you if she becomes Divine (I've yet to try that so I don't know if thats true or not) I can't say Leliana is the worst though since that all highly depends on what Inquisitor I'm rolling at the time, but she does give off crazy vibes.

She changes the rules so the warden can stay with her.

[Red of Rivia]

Leliana is the worst. Another reason to not support her is that she's responsible for the nug apocalypse that will eventually befall Thedas. Who was that brought them to the surface? Leliana. Now they're in every map breeding uncontrollably. 

 

Are these the actions of a responsible Divine BSN? I ask you!!

Well, put an end to the mages at once then:

Spoiler

and then, we creating an order to hunt these little pink demons

[HuldraDancer]

She changes the rules so the warden can stay with her.

 

Well that's just...hmm trying to find a word for it other than stupid but that's all I can come up with, so I'll go with that. That's pretty stupid.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Leliana best Divine NA. That's right, keep drinking out of that sippy cup. 

[leaguer of one]

Well that's just...hmm trying to find a word for it other than stupid but that's all I can come up with, so I'll go with that. That's pretty stupid.

How is it stupid?

[Jackums]

You do realise that if enough people are unhappy with Leliana's changes [given she's a radical revolutionary that's likely going to be the case] she's just as likely to create a vehement backlash in the long term as she is to affect lasting change right? In fact, the only reason she even has even odds as far as I am concerned is because she's a known writer's pet. 

It's a case of not being able to unsee what you've seen. Leliana results in "unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas" for the mages in the mage-allied ending, and has a similar positive impact on the widespread views on mages in the conscripted variant. That in itself is abolishing centuries of the Chantry's fear-mongering and using their power to alienate and generate hate and fear for a group of people. It's not a physical change, but the power of the mere opening of peoples' eyes and creating an understanding grounded in caution, rather than a blind fear, is immense. The problem is largely how magic has been portrayed. The Chantry has preached hate for centuries. Thus people with magic are naturally isolated, and this results in tension and conflict. There's caution to be had, but caution through understanding, not fear and hatred. It's essentially a case of the Chantry proactively trying to prevent an issue, and in their method of doing so, they generate it themselves. Once people start to see mages and magic differently, it has a lasting effect through the fact that people are exposed to this other side and reality they largely never knew existed.

 

There'll always be conflict, but at least Leliana is willing enough to try at eradicating some of the ignorance that's been drilled into the masses over centuries of religious zealotry by the Chantry. Let's also observe that in every single ending variant for both Vivienne and Cassandra in which the mages are alive, there's almost immediate conflict. If we want to base the quality of an ending off of how likely conflict is, Leliana already wins for being the only one that has mages alive with no foreseeable conflict within the months that follow.

[HuldraDancer]

How is it stupid?

 

It seems stupid or maybe thats the wrong word perhaps odd would be a better choice. It seems odd that while focusing on her Divine duties she was go 'Oh by the way I can still keep my lover cause I said so' if it was really that easy then why has no other Divine tried that? Why is it not the same for Cassandra? Why is it only that way for Leliana? (If I'm wrong on that please correct me on it I hate to be making a judgment based on false information) I have nothing against Leliana at all but that just seems that one extra thing that makes me scratch my head and go 'Really?'

[d-boy15]

It seems stupid or maybe thats the wrong word perhaps odd would be a better choice. It seems odd that while focusing on her Divine duties she was go 'Oh by the way I can still keep my lover cause I said so' if it was really that easy then why has no other Divine tried that? Why is it not the same for Cassandra? Why is it only that way for Leliana? (If I'm wrong on that please correct me on it I hate to be making a judgment based on false information) I have nothing against Leliana at all but that just seems that one extra thing that makes me scratch my head and go 'Really?'

 

Different writers, different interpretation.

 

Beside... Cassandra is more conservative about Chantry, given that her characters are hold discipline and honor to her heart.

It's not strange if she able to let go of her personal affair.

 

Leliana is most liberal out of 3 candidates, she seem like a person that not follow any rules if it doesn't make any sense. Yes.

It's a bit odd but it's not like everyone are romance her in DA:O.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's a case of not being able to unsee what you've seen. Leliana results in "unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas" for the mages in the mage-allied ending, and has a similar positive impact on the widespread views on mages in the conscripted variant. That in itself is abolishing centuries of the Chantry's fear-mongering and using their power to alienate and generate hate and fear for a group of people. It's not a physical change, but the power of the mere opening of peoples' eyes and creating an understanding grounded in caution, rather than a blind fear, is immense. The problem is largely how magic has been portrayed. The Chantry has preached hate for centuries. Thus people with magic are naturally isolated, and this results in tension and conflict. There's caution to be had, but caution through understanding, not fear and hatred. It's essentially a case of the Chantry proactively trying to prevent an issue, and in their method of doing so, they generate it themselves. Once people start to see mages and magic differently, it has a lasting effect through the fact that people are exposed to this other side and reality they largely never knew existed.

 

There'll always be conflict, but at least Leliana is willing enough to try at eradicating some of the ignorance that's been drilled into the masses over centuries of religious zealotry by the Chantry. Let's also observe that in every single ending variant for both Vivienne and Cassandra in which the mages are alive, there's almost immediate conflict. If we want to base the quality of an ending off of how likely conflict is, Leliana already wins for being the only one that has mages alive with no foreseeable conflict within the months that follow.

That just stupid and ridiculous in first place people don't hate mages because chantry peoples hate mages because they are dangerous and constantly causing disasters as we saw many examples of that in fact people tend hate people because they are different and it isn't that you just tell peoples to not hate and hell yeah we have eternal peace it is just as i said ridiculously stupid.

 

In First place chantry never preached hate against mages only truth...

 

Hell hate toward "magic" is common in other universes where mages are in fact much more safe to deal with.

[Lebanese Dude]

Beautiful. Who did this?

[Red of Rivia]

That just stupid and ridiculous in first place people don't hate mages because chantry peoples hate mages because they are dangerous and constantly causing disasters as we saw many examples of that in fact people tend hate people because they are different and it isn't that you just tell peoples to not hate and hell yeah we have eternal peace it is just as i said ridiculously stupid.

 

In First place chantry never preached hate against mages only truth...

 

Hell hate toward "magic" is common in other universes where mages are in fact much more safe to deal with.

In the world of The Witcher they are not trapped in towers, but are hunted to death. It is not very different from the DA. It depends on the universe, I think this kind of fantasy is common to magic being seen as something evil, usually this view is caused by the local religion, does not make it a bad thing in fact, is only the view of the people.