244 réponses à ce sujet

[Vit246]

It's like they're supposed to be intelligent but get thrown the idiot ball or something.

Thats kinda it.

Since DAO, Bioware has been wanting to teach us a lesson about  magic and mages. They got annoyed when more people picked to save the mages in DAO. So in DA2, they tried too hard by going completely overboard with the Stupid Evil blood mages and demons and Orsino being "associated" with your mom's death and turning into a totally forced boss fight (which they admitted). And people still saw the contrived lengths they were going to by portraying the mages that way and picked to side with the mages again. And now in Inquisition, the only thing left for Bioware to do was to have culturally-raised Andrastian mages ally with Tevinter because Tevinter is "evulz" and because OBVIOUSLY they would do something like that in a heartbeat.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yo, hate on Fiona and Orsino all you want. You leave Irving out of this.

Lyrium!

That is all.

[TK514]

Thats kinda it.

Since DAO, Bioware has been wanting to teach us a lesson about  magic and mages. They got annoyed when more people picked to save the mages in DAO. So in DA2, they tried too hard by going completely overboard with the Stupid Evil blood mages and demons and Orsino being "associated" with your mom's death and turning into a totally forced boss fight (which they admitted). And people still saw the contrived lengths they were going to by portraying the mages that way and picked to side with the mages again. And now in Inquisition, the only thing left for Bioware to do was to have culturally-raised Andrastian mages ally with Tevinter because Tevinter is "evulz" and because OBVIOUSLY they would do something like that in a heartbeat.

 

I don't think they tried nearly hard enough to show the dangers of mages in DA2 (or DA:O, to be honest).  In almost every case, the Blood Mage blamed the Tempars, either directly or indirectly, for their actions.  And given that the Kirkwall Templars were portrayed as rapists, murderers or idiots, it's really hard not to see the mages' point.

 

If the Templars had been shown as reasonable, or at the very least just trying to do the best they could in a terrible situation, and the Mages had chosen blood magic and demons for reasons other than "The Templars are awful", then we might have something to talk about in regards to the factions being portrayed in DA2.

 

As it is, I think they finally started to get the feel in DA:I that they've wanted all along.  It seems jarring mainly because they've botched it so badly until now.

[Eliastion]

I don't think they tried nearly hard enough to show the dangers of mages in DA2 (or DA:O, to be honest).  In almost every case, the Blood Mage blamed the Tempars, either directly or indirectly, for their actions.  And given that the Kirkwall Templars were portrayed as rapists, murderers or idiots, it's really hard not to see the mages' point.

 

If the Templars had been shown as reasonable, or at the very least just trying to do the best they could in a terrible situation, and the Mages had chosen blood magic and demons for reasons other than "The Templars are awful", then we might have something to talk about in regards to the factions being portrayed in DA2.

 

As it is, I think they finally started to get the feel in DA:I that they've wanted all along.  It seems jarring mainly because they've botched it so badly until now.

But the problem is that mages are supposedly educated and intelligent, or at the very least book-smart... and still act at times as if they suddenly went retarded. I happily bash at Fiona for what happened and say that I regret not having an option to execute her for crimes against fellow mages, but let's be frank: it's more like she at some point caught an idiot ball... and then swallowed it or something, since simply holding it wouldn't derail her like that.

 

Though I guess it's a matter of poor delivery, really. It was intended as desperate move by the mages - a bad, stupid move born of fear, but understable. And that would be a nice element of the story, really, if not for the fact that the game failed to present the situation of mages as desperate at all! We hear that the war isn't going great for them, but we hardly see it. And we most definitely don't encounter anything that could give us a feeling of imminent defeat awaiting mages if they don't do something quickly. Just look at them: they have access to a powerful, strategically important fortress in friendly country, the common people are scared but not really hostile to them - if anything they seem to wish for the "true rebel mages" to actually move their assess from Redcliffe and do something about those mad apostates and rogue templars wrecking chaos through the Hinterlands. They perhaps don't have prospects of winning the war but they seem actually pretty safe! Just think about it - if the Templars were to actually make a move against them, that would mean attacking Redcliffe and Redcliffe Castle... pretty much an act of war against Ferelden, even if the latter didn't ally with the mages to extent of providing military assistance.

 

Basically, the game presented us with plenty of evidence that situation of rebel mages in Ferelden wasn't bad, much less "desperate". And then there were also the thing that allying with Tevinter would antagonize the friendly country they were actually in at the momet. Not to mention how cartoonishly evil Tevinter tends to be. Selling themselves off to Tevinter isn't even stupidity when I think about it - it's a plothole...

[TK514]

But the problem is that mages are supposedly educated and intelligent, or at the very least book-smart... and still act at times as if they suddenly went retarded. I happily bash at Fiona for what happened and say that I regret not having an option to execute her for crimes against fellow mages, but let's be frank: it's more like she at some point caught an idiot ball... and then swallowed it or something, since simply holding it wouldn't derail her like that.

 

Though I guess it's a matter of poor delivery, really. It was intended as desperate move by the mages - a bad, stupid move born of fear, but understable. And that would be a nice element of the story, really, if not for the fact that the game failed to present the situation of mages as desperate at all! We hear that the war isn't going great for them, but we hardly see it. And we most definitely don't encounter anything that could give us a feeling of imminent defeat awaiting mages if they don't do something quickly. Just look at them: they have access to a powerful, strategically important fortress in friendly country, the common people are scared but not really hostile to them - if anything they seem to wish for the "true rebel mages" to actually move their assess from Redcliffe and do something about those mad apostates and rogue templars wrecking chaos through the Hinterlands. They perhaps don't have prospects of winning the war but they seem actually pretty safe! Just think about it - if the Templars were to actually make a move against them, that would mean attacking Redcliffe and Redcliffe Castle... pretty much an act of war against Ferelden, even if the latter didn't ally with the mages to extent of providing military assistance.

 

Basically, the game presented us with plenty of evidence that situation of rebel mages in Ferelden wasn't bad, much less "desperate". And then there were also the thing that allying with Tevinter would antagonize the friendly country they were actually in at the momet. Not to mention how cartoonishly evil Tevinter tends to be. Selling themselves off to Tevinter isn't even stupidity when I think about it - it's a plothole...

 

It was my understanding that the 'imminent Templar army' was a bluff on the part of the Venatori.  There was no army ready to assault the most defensible location in Ferelden.  Just the scattered lunatics that were fighting their scattered lunatic mage counterparts and rampaging around the Hinterlands.

 

Which, of course, makes Fiona look even worse.

 

I suppose it is possible that Alexius was in on the plan to convert the Templars as well, and thus believed he could present the facade of a hostile army if need be, but that really isn't explored in the game.

[Barquiel]

Basically, the game presented us with plenty of evidence that situation of rebel mages in Ferelden wasn't bad, much less "desperate". And then there were also the thing that allying with Tevinter would antagonize the friendly country they were actually in at the momet. Not to mention how cartoonishly evil Tevinter tends to be. Selling themselves off to Tevinter isn't even stupidity when I think about it - it's a plothole...

Without knowing the templar story and the respective cutscenes I found it plausible. Fiona's forces in Redcliff didn't look very impressive to me (many refugees, weak mages like Conner, etc.)...and shortly after dealing with Alexius (maybe a few days in-game?) you have that huge templar army which overruns Haven.

[Boost32]

Without knowing the templar story and the respective cutscenes I found it plausible. Fiona's forces in Redcliff didn't look very impressive to me (many refugees, weak mages like Conner, etc.)...and shortly after dealing with Alexius (maybe a few days in-game?) you have that huge templar army which overruns Haven.

If they have small numbers, how they attack the Inquisition with a overwhelmimg force?

[Br3admax]

Baraquiel is either mistaken, or intentionally ignoring the fact the Rebel Mage army is also full of mercenaries that fight for the mages. 

[Barquiel]

If they have small numbers, how they attack the Inquisition with a overwhelmimg force?

As I've said..."without knowing the templar story". When I first played the game Fiona's decision made perfect sense to me. I only saw Fiona's mages in Redliffe and that huge templar army...I understood why the mages thought they would need Alexius help. Then I watched the templar path on youtube...and it made a bit less sense

And I always thought a large chunk of the mage army which attacks Haven consisted of Venatori? Anyway, my point was mainly that there were more than enough templars in the area, so Fiona's fears were not completely unfounded.

[Boost32]

As I've said..."without knowing the templar story". When I first played the game Fiona's decision made perfect sense to me. I only saw Fiona's mages in Redliff and that huge templar army...I understood why the mages thought they would need Alexius help. Then I watched the templar path on youtube...and it made a bit less sense ;)And I always thought a large chunk of the mage army which attacks Haven consisted of Venatori? Anyway, my point was mainly that there were more than enough templars in the area, so Fiona's fears were not completely unfounded.

They were completely unfounded.
She as behind the gates of one of the most defensible position in southern Thedas, she was allowed sanctuary the Ferelden's monarchy.
Only if the Templars were idiots, they would try something against Redcliff, they would lose with a direct attack and attract the anger of Ferelden against them, only a huge idiot could not see it.

[AresKeith]

They were completely unfounded.
She as behind the gates of one of the most defensible position in southern Thedas, she was allowed sanctuary the Ferelden's monarchy.
Only if the Templars were idiots, they would try something against Redcliff, they would lose with a direct attack and attract the anger of Ferelden against them, only a huge idiot could not see it.

 

This is Fiona we're talking about

[Hair Serious Business]

Cass always gets seat...unless I romanced her 

No thank you don't need new "heart-breaking" romance...because I had enough of these already in BW games lol

[Barquiel]

They were completely unfounded.
She as behind the gates of one of the most defensible position in southern Thedas, she was allowed sanctuary the Ferelden's monarchy.
Only if the Templars were idiots, they would try something against Redcliff, they would lose with a direct attack and attract the anger of Ferelden against them, only a huge idiot could not see it.

The combined forces of the Inquisition and the rebel mages couldn't stop the templars from overruning Haven. I doubt the Redcliffe militia would have made any difference (...and the templars are idiots).

And Redcliffe Castle is one of the most defensible locations in Ferelden (I wonder how many people can you evacuate into it? every villager? every mage?), not the village.

[Boost32]

The combined forces of the Inquisition and the rebel mages couldn't stop the templars from overruning Haven. I doubt the Redcliffe militia would have made any difference (...and the templars are idiots).And Redcliffe Castle is one of the most defensible locations in Ferelden (I wonder how many people can you evacuate into it? every villager? every mage?), not the village.

You dont have the full force of mages/templars, you have a dozes veterans who were senta head to help to seal the Breaxh, if what you are saying is true, why the combined forces of Templars and the Inquisition falls to the rebel mages?

And Redcliff is not Haven, they have huge walls and iron gates, how the Templars would attack them? They don have any seage weapons, battering rams, or anything that can help them destroy a wall. Its impossible for them to attack the village.

[Master Warder Z_]

Fear the hams of battering! The hams of war!

[Boost32]

Fear the hams of battering! The hams of war!

Sorri, english is not my first language.
Already fixed

[Master Warder Z_]

Sorri, english is not my first language.
Already fixed

 

Nor mine; But it comes easily enough with time.

[Barquiel]

You dont have the full force of mages/templars, you have a dozes veterans who were senta head to help to seal the Breaxh, if what you are saying is true, why the combined forces of Templars and the Inquisition falls to the rebel mages?

And Redcliff is not Haven, they have huge walls and iron gates, how the Templars would attack them? They don have any seage weapons, battering rams, or anything that can help them destroy a wall. Its impossible for them to attack the village.

I could be wrong because I've never played the templar path...but I always thought that the combined forces of Fiona's mages and Calpernia's venatori attacked Haven? I doubt the rebel mages alone would have been strong enough to defeat the inquisition (or Haven wouldn't have fallen if you side with the mages).

I'm pretty sure the templars have siege equipment. We know for example that Lambert wanted to besiege Andoral's Reach (a fortress).

[Eliastion]

It's not the problem of having siege equipment, really - in fact most siege weaponry is built on the spot rather than transported, so the Templars do "have" it as much as any other army, though their siege expertise is probably severely lacking. The thing is, however, that the siege would take a lot of time. And mages are VERY good at defending fortifications. They can literally rain fire on the enemy army... and the proper response to that would be employing mages of their own, that Templars simply don't have, since the loyal mages remained with the Chantry, not with the Templars...

 

There is the dragon, of course, and Venatori, and Cory himself - but their involvement with Templars (or mages) is revealed only later on...

[Steelcan]

I could be wrong because I've never played the templar path...but I always thought that the combined forces of Fiona's mages and Calpernia's venatori attacked Haven? I doubt the rebel mages alone would have been strong enough to defeat the inquisition (or Haven wouldn't have fallen if you side with the mages).

I'm pretty sure the templars have siege equipment. We know for example that Lambert wanted to besiege Andoral's Reach (a fortress).

all we know is that "the mages from Redcliffe" are attacking, presumably both, but we fight mostly venatori

 

they may have it, but transporting it is a whole other issue

[Master Warder Z_]

A crumbling fortress that had no real defenses left.

It's walls fell to time a long while before the magi arrived.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I am pro-Mage and as such, softened Leliana is my primary choice for Divine. I love the idea of College of Enchanters, its like a Theodosian version of Hogwarts / College of Winterhold / Arcane University. 

[Knight of Dane]

The combinations I've had was

 

Leliana w. allied mages

Cassandra w. conscripted mages twice

Vivienne w. allied templars

Vivienne w. conscripted mages

 

So far Leliana was the only one that actually hinted at a peaceful outcome where Cassandra's seemed more like a return to the status quo.

Vivienne's were just horrible, both versions I had.

 

So I guess so far I am on Leliana's boat. My next two playthroughs are attempts at a divine Leliana w. conscripted Templars and a divine Cassandra w. allied templars. Hoping for some alternative results. I really want to try and ally the templars and get Leliana as divine, but that'll wait for now.

[Ranadiel Marius]

The combined forces of the Inquisition and the rebel mages couldn't stop the templars from overruning Haven. I doubt the Redcliffe militia would have made any difference (...and the templars are idiots).

And Redcliffe Castle is one of the most defensible locations in Ferelden (I wonder how many people can you evacuate into it? every villager? every mage?), not the village.

The Inquisition forces were winning that battle.....until a dragon came into play (not that they would have kept winning once Cory took the field, but he didn't bother to do that till the very end). Redcliffe would probably be able to survive a dragon attack and then hunker down while they wait for the rest of the Fereldan army to break the siege. Considering how freakishly large the castle was in the future dungeon, I am inclined to believe it could house the entire village for a few days in the need came to it.

 

 

I could be wrong because I've never played the templar path...but I always thought that the combined forces of Fiona's mages and Calpernia's venatori attacked Haven? I doubt the rebel mages alone would have been strong enough to defeat the inquisition (or Haven wouldn't have fallen if you side with the mages).

I'm pretty sure the templars have siege equipment. We know for example that Lambert wanted to besiege Andoral's Reach (a fortress).

Fiona's mages are the venatori if you side with the Templar. There is no separation between them. 

[Helmetto]

As I've said..."without knowing the templar story". When I first played the game Fiona's decision made perfect sense to me. I only saw Fiona's mages in Redliffe and that huge templar army...I understood why the mages thought they would need Alexius help. Then I watched the templar path on youtube...and it made a bit less sense

And I always thought a large chunk of the mage army which attacks Haven consisted of Venatori? Anyway, my point was mainly that there were more than enough templars in the area, so Fiona's fears were not completely unfounded.

 

Actually, just from the mage story alone:

 

Fiona and her army survived long enough for her to visit the Inquisitor at Val Royeux (though I'm not entirely sure because time travel bullshit muddles the whole thing) and return; that alone means that they would've survived a really long time, and that they could've rebuked the offer by Tevinter (which according to the new timeline, came like a day after the explosion of the conclave, which is in turn perhaps weeks from when the Inquisitor arrives in Redcliffe themselves). On top of that, if they looked out the ****** window, they would've noticed that the vast bulk of the templars were retreating to some fortress away from the Hinterlands, and whoever was left were essentially deserters who disobeyed orders because "Augggggggh mages!" (And similarly, the mages running around are also deserters as well; basically, both sides holed up somewhere and all the fighting going on in Redcliffe wasn't even an act of war on either side. Just stupid soldiers being stupid.)

 

I think we're told a lot of this in like, the first 10 minutes of being there in the Hinterlands, and the rest in Val Royeux.