244 réponses à ce sujet

[Eliastion]

I plan to conscript the mages and have Leli lead my next playthrough but I'm scared it may not work, since I'm on console and there is no way for me to track the points.

 

Also, what are my chances if I choose to force the three-way truce in Wicked Hearts? I have no intention of giving Briala the throne on that playthrough, and I don't imagine the truce is favored by Leliana. So I'm not sure how this is going to work for me. But I'm really intrigued by the conscripted mages/Leliana Divine setting.

Vivienne gets -5 if you force the three-way (sorry, couldn't help myself ), but it hardly makes up for her leading by 20 points after conscription of mages. With mages conscripted, threesome and letting wardens stay you accumulate -10+0+5=-5 for Leliana and +10-5-1=+4 for Vivienne, giving the latter a solid 9 point lead. If you support Leliana with appropriate table mission and metagame carefully on conversations, you should be able to pull it off.

You can also lead the Inquisition for vengeance (+1 Leliana -5 Vivienne) or, better yet, for power. EVERYBODY disapproves, but it supposedly nets +5 for Leliana and -1 for Vivienne as Divine

EDIT: And beware of Cass, but you can cut some of her points by saying that Chantry should end and telling her to forget the chantry  And your main choices shouldn't give her too many points so it should be ok here.

[Helmetto]

The problem with current/old Chantry is that it's hardly interested in Truth. The best example is the problem of Shartan - the Orlesian Chantry altered the Chant of Light and tried to erase from history elven involvement in the original Exalted March. It failed, the history is pretty widely known, but the great lie still stands. How many smaller lies were more successful over those 800 years from Chantry's founding?

That's why reformed Chantry needs to compromise - because it has gone far enough from its roots for the Truth to not be absolute - it's a speculation. And if you care about the Truth, you should closely examine the wildest of heresies, since ages of lies, mistakes and deception have taken their toll and nobody knows what the Truth is anymore. New Chantry can search for truth, it can try and research it, but it does not KNOW it. Chantry has sinned and it was a great sin against the Truth that can't be reversed - the only thing it can do is to learn humility... or it can return to being in denial, of course. But forcing your Truth on others when it's a known fact that your Truth has been heavily distorted along the way is hardly a moral or holy endeavor.

 

Let's not go into the truth; Truth is a very subjective thing and frankly that relies heavily on how much "truth" the Chantry started with, and even that's pretty sketchy at best. Much of history is at best speculation, with much of it written by victors of wars, survivors of tragedy, and some surviving artifacts. Pretty sure there's a play running around in Orlais where Andraste had an elven lover, for example, and who knows if there's any truth to THAT?

 

And, of course, returning a "how do you know this isn't crap" with "lol I dunno, my ancestors cocked it up and we can no longer tell apart truth from fiction." is hardly a good answer. But I would argue that the role of the Chantry is not to celebrate truth, but rather, to unite the common people under a single belief (under one god). This is more similar to what Muhammad (the Muslim prophet) did; he rallied his people under one belief, beat up a bunch of tribes (some of whom attacked him first), and united them under a single (and at the time, radical) belief. The Chantry seeks to unite all of Thedas; is that not a noble endeavor?

 

Does it do it wrong? Of course. But I wouldn't expect anything less from an organization with beliefs built from war, and who's solutions to the most extreme of problems is literally "Burn it to the grouuuuuund." That it make such grand endeavors to change its scriptures is a reflection of how people felt at the time, and is pretty much no different than how people today ignore certain parts of the Bible.

 

So, the goal of a reformed Chantry is to keep doing what it was doing (uniting people), but you know, not forcing any one person under a leash and collar. Cassandra's vision is met with voluntary support, combined with a plan and guidance to make it solid and firm. Vivienne forces people back in, which is noble in intention but perhaps not the best (but again, true to the Chantry Way™). Leliana tries to make it ENTIRELY voluntary, leaving the mages to decide for themselves whats up (and I have yet to see mages in leadership do much in the intelligence department). And any leader will tell you how each of these options works out to; they've all danced each tune.

 

Cassandra is the best choice, from my experience. I went with Vivi the first time because I never really saw much wrong/fault with the Chantry, considering that 90% of the problems with mages/templars is pretty much a result of corrupt leadership and dumb being dumber and some people being okay with using innocent lives as paint for their noble cause, and 10% of it being the Chantry simply being passive with its charges (which, I don't entirely blame; the system worked for what, 900+ years?). So yeah.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Vivienne gets -5 if you force the three-way (sorry, couldn't help myself ), but it hardly makes up for her leading by 20 points after conscription of mages. With mages conscripted, threesome and letting wardens stay you accumulate -10+0+5=-5 for Leliana and +10-5-1=+4 for Vivienne, giving the latter a solid 9 point lead. If you support Leliana with appropriate table mission and metagame carefully on conversations, you should be able to pull it off.

You can also lead the Inquisition for vengeance (+1 Leliana -5 Vivienne) or, better yet, for power. EVERYBODY disapproves, but it supposedly nets +5 for Leliana and -1 for Vivienne as Divine

EDIT: And beware of Cass, but you can cut some of her points by saying that Chantry should end and telling her to forget the chantry  And your main choices shouldn't give her too many points so it should be ok here.

Thank you!

 

That sounds doable. I haven't really looked into it too much but I've seen a few reports of people ending up with the unintended Divine so I was worried, especially since conscripting the mages gives a significant boost to Vivienne.

[Eliastion]

Thank you!

 

That sounds doable. I haven't really looked into it too much but I've seen a few reports of people ending up with the unintended Divine so I was worried, especially since conscripting the mages gives a significant boost to Vivienne.

If you have any dobts, I think this site can help you:

http://dragonage.wik...Divine_election

 

Though it also mentions potential bug with wrong Divine coming on top for reasons unclear, so I guess you're never safe...

[Fiery Phoenix]

If you have any dobts, I think this site can help you:

http://dragonage.wik...Divine_election

 

Though it also mentions potential bug with wrong Divine coming on top for reasons unclear, so I guess you're never safe...

I know about that page, but I've read it's not entirely accurate and there are in-game bugs that cause inconsistency. I suppose it's still a good reference, however.

[Eliastion]

Let's not go into the truth; Truth is a very subjective thing and frankly that relies heavily on how much "truth" the Chantry started with, and even that's pretty sketchy at best. Much of history is at best speculation, with much of it written by victors of wars, survivors of tragedy, and some surviving artifacts. Pretty sure there's a play running around in Orlais where Andraste had an elven lover, for example, and who knows if there's any truth to THAT?

There is some speculation about Shartan himself. And seeing as everyone seems to have an elven lover...
I mean really, there are rumors about the real position of Erlina at Anora's court, then we have Celena and Briala, then the legendary Avvar hero Trydda and her "leaf-eared" lover... One starts to think that every important woman in Thedas needs an elven "friend" 
 

And, of course, returning a "how do you know this isn't crap" with "lol I dunno, my ancestors cocked it up and we can no longer tell apart truth from fiction." is hardly a good answer. But I would argue that the role of the Chantry is not to celebrate truth, but rather, to unite the common people under a single belief (under one god). This is more similar to what Muhammad (the Muslim prophet) did; he rallied his people under one belief, beat up a bunch of tribes (some of whom attacked him first), and united them under a single (and at the time, radical) belief. The Chantry seeks to unite all of Thedas; is that not a noble endeavor?

Venatori wanted to unite all of Thedas too. And ancient Tevinter almost pulled it off. Now Qunari try and work at it. But frankly, no, I don't find uniting the continent under your authority is all that noble as an idea, sorry...
 

(...)(and I have yet to see mages in leadership do much in the intelligence department).

Play mage inquisitor!
But more seriously, I don't see Irving as an idiot and if you want to look outside Circle, Lanaya - the former First of Zathrian's clan - apparently does pretty good job after you get rid of this senile vengeance-bound idiot. Then there is Vivienne who apparently manages to sit on Sunburst Throne and lives, despite being a mage, that is something.

But I don't blame you for your view on mages' leadership, not after the I-need-to-be-retarded-for-the-sake-of-the-plot Fiona. OR was she always so stupid? I admit I didn't actually read the books. Was she always dumb or was it DA:I that made a complete moron out of her?

[rx00]

Cass is a fine Divine. However, Vivienne is the best.

 

She is devout, she is strong in character, she thinks about her actions before making them, she can easily weave her way around rivals and allies alike, she is a master at The Game, she is caring, she has the big picture in mind, and she is a mage. Yes, a mage, because mages are given a great gift and responsibility that most people are not granted, and so the Maker allows them greater potential than his other children. Vivienne is very responsible for her magic and doesn't let potential secret knowledge distract her from her principles and values.

 

Cass won't be as good with politics as Viv will be, but she could just have PR people handle that stuff while she can focus on other matters.

 

Vivienne can handle it all on her own, she is strong in all the areas necessary for being Divine.

 

Leliana.... she might as well make the Chantry a giant carpet for people to walk all over or dissolve it altogether. She wants compromises, she wants openness, and she wants to make people happy. Trying to please everyone will end with no one being pleased, and if the Chantry proclaims Truth, then that is not something that can be compromised on.

 

Leliana might as well merge the Chantry with the Imperial Chantry to unite Thedas again under one Chantry and free the Imperial Chantry from Tevinter corruption.... hmm... I won't really be opposed to that, though...

 

Bah, anyway, Vivienne for Divine!

 

Vivienne as Divine wil just repeat the grand circle (not mage circle, I'm talking about history and political game here.) all over agian. Same old problem, same old **** and at some point same old outcomes. Viv plays the game well and it fits her well, and that's exactly the major flaw here, she won't change the system just like a fish won't dry the water around it, and while other people drown in there, her response is "that's because your water is not as clear as mine" or "why don't you learn how to breath under water, since waters are already here?"

 

Cassandra maybe clumsy in the dress, Leliana maybe too idealistic, but at least they admit problems exist and want to change them. Viv? She won't see the problems because those are not even problems for her.

[Cundu_Ertur]

Divine Schmooples FTW.

 

/thread

[Boost32]

Vivienne as Divine wil just repeat the grand circle (not mage circle, I'm talking about history and political game here.) all over agian. Same old problem, same old **** and at some point same old outcomes. Viv plays the game well and it fits her well, and that's exactly the major flaw here, she won't change the system just like a fish won't dry the water around it, and while other people drown in there, her response is "that's because your water is not as clear as mine" or "why don't you learn how to breath under water, since waters are already here?"

Cassandra maybe clumsy in the dress, Leliana maybe too idealistic, but at least they admit problems exist and want to change them. Viv? She won't see the problems because those are not even problems for her.

Vivienne see the problems and adress them, she gaves mages more freedom and responsability, and put the templars on a short leash, with this they cant go abusing their power like before.

The one who wants to repeat history, is Leliana, the mages were free once, abominations rampaged the land and because of this the Inquisition of old was formed and a new one group will rise to hunt them. And I want to know, how long before a noble/ruler starts hunt mages, conscript them to his/her army and use them on petty wars (like Gaspard wanted in TME), withouth the Chantry to protect the mages, how Leliana will stop something like that to happens.

[rx00]

Vivienne see the problems and adress them, she gaves mages more freedom and responsability, and put the templars on a short leash, with this they cant go abusing their power like before.

The one who wants to repeat history, is Leliana, the mages were free once, abominations rampaged the land and because of this the Inquisition of old was formed and a new one group will rise to hunt them. And I want to know, how long before a noble/ruler starts hunt mages, conscript them to his/her army and use them on petty wars (like Gaspard wanted in TME), withouth the Chantry to protect the mages, how Leliana will stop something like that to happens.

There is a difference between "legally allowed" and "illegally happening". I believe what happened between DA2 and DAI falls into later category.

 

Even in the extremest example of free mages(aka Tevinter), you don't see abominations running around streets and eating people. Viv did gave circle more freedom and responsibility, but it's still a prison for those whose crime being what they are.

[Boost32]

There is a difference between "legally allowed" and "illegally happening". I believe what happened between DA2 and DAI falls into later category.
 
Even in the extremest example of free mages(aka Tevinter), you don't see abominations running around streets and eating people. Viv did gave circle more freedom and responsibility, but it's still a prison for those whose crime being what they are.

We dont know the numbers of abominations in Tevinter, and mages arent free there, only the nobles mages are, the Commoners are sent to the Circles like in the south, the difference is the Circles in Tevinter are more lenients.
You just need to look at the Dalish, every clan, in every game/book, a Dalish mage always screw up.
DAO: Zatrhian created a werewolf curse, how many lives he destroyed?
Awekening: Velanna goes on a killing spree, because she thinks humans killed her sister.
DA2: Do I need to remember Merrill/Marethari/Audacity debacle?
TME: the clan summoned Imshael, who destroyed them.
DAI: a elven mage killed himselg while hentried using blood magic.
If this is a example of a society with mages free, I know I wouldnt want to live on it.

The Circles are not a prison, they are a quarentine zone, to protect the world from dangerous persons, who already proved they cant be free, they screw up and justify every bad thing they do claming "survival", they will always put their lives above the mudanes, so to me, mages cant be trusted as a group, only a few individuals can be trusted with freedom.

[The Baconer]

We dont know the numbers of abominations in Tevinter, and mages arent free there, only the nobles mages are, the Commoners are sent to the Circles like in the south, the difference is the Circles in Tevinter are more lenients.

 

Circle attendance in Tevinter isn't actually mandatory; it's a privilege.

[Eliastion]

We dont know the numbers of abominations in Tevinter, and mages arent free there, only the nobles mages are, the Commoners are sent to the Circles like in the south, the difference is the Circles in Tevinter are more lenients.
You just need to look at the Dalish, every clan, in every game/book, a Dalish mage always screw up.
DAO: Zatrhian created a werewolf curse, how many lives he destroyed?
Awekening: Velanna goes on a killing spree, because she thinks humans killed her sister.
DA2: Do I need to remember Merrill/Marethari/Audacity debacle?
TME: the clan summoned Imshael, who destroyed them.
DAI: a elven mage killed himselg while hentried using blood magic.
If this is a example of a society with mages free, I know I wouldnt want to live on it.

We need to diferentiate mages doing bad things from bad things happening because of magic. Going point for point:
DA:O Were Zathrian not a mage and just a chief of wandering tribe, he would take his warriors and attack defenseless villages in retribution, causing a minor war ending lots of lives, potentially killing his whole clan. Any making up wouldn't even be an option. Basically, magic gave his vengeance a more fantastic spin - but was it really more destructive? The problem was Zathrian's thirst for vengeance and stubbornness, not his magic and whether the end-result was actually worse due to magic is debatable.
Awakening: Even more than before - going on killing spree is hardly a mage-restricted thing
DA2: one possibly valid example
TME: this one was pretty much outside meddling that caused the disaster afaik, but as I didn't read the novel, I'll refrain from passing judgement here  
DAI: killed himself. In Circle he would be killed or lobotomized. Were he not a mage, he could kill himself in a myriad other ways trying to prove himself like an idiot
Basically, you have one, perhaps two instances where magic actually was the cause of problems, in all the other ones it was merely flavor: bad things were bound to happen, magic was available - and so, bad things were magical.
And you say that you wouldn't want to live in such society, I believe you, but with Circles the way they are now, magic is available only for the richest who can either pay an apostate or get themselves a legal mage to help. Wouldn't you prefer to live in society where there actually is magical healing for pretty much everyone? And that's just the most obvious benefit of having a mage around. If you don't consider those benefits, it's like saying "all the mines should close, look at all those accidents, i don't want to live in society where there are mines, they claim lives!" - incidents are terrible, but everyday benefits are pretty much a necessity...
 
But let's go back to accidents and tragedies - let's look at those glorified Circles. We get to know one in DA:O... and it incidentally becomes a death trap, costing many lives. Something bad starts to happen - tower gets closed. Nobody leaves, nowhere to flee. Abominations and those couple crazy blood mages that started it go rampant among normal mages who were never taught how to properly deal with demons since that's part of forbidden knowledge already. And they have templars to protect them, of course... only the templars initially fail and then don't even try anymore, just wait for authorization to kill every single survivor along with the enemy. How many lives were lost there? You pack many people more than usually susceptible to possession (mages, including apprentices) into a tower located in area where the Veil is thin; on top of that, you ban teaching serious demon/spirit-related magic. How many innocent lives were lost in that single incident? Or do they not count, being mages?

And, finally, there is one more thing

 

 

The Circles are not a prison, they are a quarentine zone, to protect the world from dangerous persons, who already proved they cant be free, they screw up and justify every bad thing they do claming "survival", they will always put their lives above the mudanes, so to me, mages cant be trusted as a group, only a few individuals can be trusted with freedom.

Regardless of how tempting it could be to assume otherwise, incidents are what happens only rarely. Most mages never become abominations and never summon demons, even most apostates. Circles imprison everyone, kill or lobotomize those deemed unsuitable, control the lives of the rest, sometimes let some "trusted individual" go out, usually with a mission of sorts.

How is it not a prison? On moral level it's pretty much the "let's put all black people to prisons, some especially trystworthy will earn their freedom". You may point at criminal statistics all day, or (back to mages) you can browse the sources for each and every magical incident in the lore, this doesn't change the basic fact: mages are taken from their families, denied their titles, freedom, family (Eamon potentially visiting his mage child is quite obviously an exception made for a powerful Earl, especially considering how her own newborn child was taken away from Wynne and taken to another country to seperate them). Depending on circumstances they're killed as part of their final exam or soul-killed if deemed unsuitable to even have a go at said exam. All this taken together boils down to being one of harshest punishments used (other than capital punishment) dispensed for being guilty of having certain ability most people don't. You can justify it all you want, but this won't change the facts: circles ARE prisons, usually with lifetime sentences given to children, occasionally changed to death sentence or to probation (after a dozen or a couple dozen years of exemplary behavior).

Oh, and besides, the argument that "they will always put their lives above the mundanes" is laughable. Of course they will. And above other mages. That's the most natural instinct - putting your own life above everyone else's. Exceptions can be made for family and friends and, of course, and there are those slightly crazy martyrs who would gladly give their lives for a perfect stranger - but generally speaking instinct to care for yourself first is pretty strong - and has nothing to do with being a mage or not.

[Eliastion]

Circle attendance in Tevinter isn't actually mandatory; it's a privilege.

Having a mage in commoner family generally lifts said family to lower noble class. There are slave mages, I think, but not commoner mages, I think, unless they are foreigners... So, technically speaking, Boost is right - mages who are not noble are not free  

[TheKomandorShepard]

We need to diferentiate mages doing bad things from bad things happening because of magic. Going point for point:
DA:O Were Zathrian not a mage and just a chief of wandering tribe, he would take his warriors and attack defenseless villages in retribution, causing a minor war ending lots of lives, potentially killing his whole clan. Any making up wouldn't even be an option. Basically, magic gave his vengeance a more fantastic spin - but was it really more destructive? The problem was Zathrian's thirst for vengeance and stubbornness, not his magic and whether the end-result was actually worse due to magic is debatable.
Awakening: Even more than before - going on killing spree is hardly a mage-restricted thing
DA2: one possibly valid example
TME: this one was pretty much outside meddling that caused the disaster afaik, but as I didn't read the novel, I'll refrain from passing judgement here  

 
But let's go back to accidents and tragedies - let's look at those glorified Circles. We get to know one in DA:O... and it incidentally becomes a death trap, costing many lives. Something bad starts to happen - tower gets closed. Nobody leaves, nowhere to flee. Abominations and those couple crazy blood mages that started it go rampant among normal mages who were never taught how to properly deal with demons since that's part of forbidden knowledge already. And they have templars to protect them, of course... only the templars initially fail and then don't even try anymore, just wait for authorization to kill every single survivor along with the enemy. How many lives were lost there? You pack many people more than usually susceptible to possession (mages, including apprentices) into a tower located in area where the Veil is thin; on top of that, you ban teaching serious demon/spirit-related magic. How many innocent lives were lost in that single incident? Or do they not count, being mages?
 

Wow that just one of greatest bs concerning mages i have ever heard and i heard a lot.

Zathrian created curse that lasted centuries and harmed not only people responsible for that (that died long time ago) but also normal people that had nothing to do with it so please explain how it would be as same destructive if zathrian didn't have magic...

And your excuse for velanna is mega bs i would love to see her going on killing spree without magic she would be dead in 10 seconds or prob even didn't do anything because she wouldn't have power to do that .

 

And now let me ask simple question who caused that tragedy in circle no one other than bunch (large one) of corrupted mages no one other could cause that in fact only circle prevented them from escaping and blowing up ferelden causing disaster on national scale if not larger. As i said blame mages (they caused disaster) templars were there to protect world from them and they did it and how many peoples would be killed if not templars destroying abomnations in circles a much more.

[Boost32]

Basically, you have one, perhaps two instances where magic actually was the cause of problems, in all the other ones it was merely flavor: bad things were bound to happen, magic was available - and so, bad things were magical.

The real fact is those problems were all causes by mages, those problems were elevated because magic and those problems could be avoided if they were in the Circles.

And you say that you wouldn't want to live in such society, I believe you, but with Circles the way they are now, magic is available only for the richest who can either pay an apostate or get themselves a legal mage to help. Wouldn't you prefer to live in society where there actually is magical healing for pretty much everyone? And that's just the most obvious benefit of having a mage around. If you don't consider those benefits, it's like saying "all the mines should close, look at all those accidents, i don't want to live in society where there are mines, they claim lives!" - incidents are terrible, but everyday benefits are pretty much a necessity...

And they can do it if they prove themselves trustworth, both Cassandra and Vivienne reform the Circles.
Should I remember you of Anders? His clinic helped a lot of peoples, but his explosion killed hundreds and his act provoked a war that killed thousands, not a worth trade off.

But let's go back to accidents and tragedies - let's look at those glorified Circles. We get to know one in DA:O... and it incidentally becomes a death trap, costing many lives. Something bad starts to happen - tower gets closed. Nobody leaves, nowhere to flee. Abominations and those couple crazy blood mages that started it go rampant among normal mages who were never taught how to properly deal with demons since that's part of forbidden knowledge already. And they have templars to protect them, of course... only the templars initially fail and then don't even try anymore, just wait for authorization to kill every single survivor along with the enemy. How many lives were lost there? You pack many people more than usually susceptible to possession (mages, including apprentices) into a tower located in area where the Veil is thin; on top of that, you ban teaching serious demon/spirit-related magic. How many innocent lives were lost in that single incident? Or do they not count, being mages?

Of course they count, but the numbers of death would be higher if they were free.

Regardless of how tempting it could be to assume otherwise, incidents are what happens only rarely. Most mages never become abominations and never summon demons, even most apostates. Circles imprison everyone, kill or lobotomize those deemed unsuitable, control the lives of the rest, sometimes let some "trusted individual" go out, usually with a mission of sorts.
How is it not a prison? On moral level it's pretty much the "let's put all black people to prisons, some especially trystworthy will earn their freedom". You may point at criminal statistics all day, or (back to mages) you can browse the sources for each and every magical incident in the lore, this doesn't change the basic fact: mages are taken from their families, denied their titles, freedom, family (Eamon potentially visiting his mage child is quite obviously an exception made for a powerful Earl, especially considering how her own newborn child was taken away from Wynne and taken to another country to seperate them). Depending on circumstances they're killed as part of their final exam or soul-killed if deemed unsuitable to even have a go at said exam. All this taken together boils down to being one of harshest punishments used (other than capital punishment) dispensed for being guilty of having certain ability most people don't. You can justify it all you want, but this won't change the facts: circles ARE prisons, usually with lifetime sentences given to children, occasionally changed to death sentence or to probation (after a dozen or a couple dozen years of exemplary behavior).

They arent prison, you can leave a Circle if you prove yourself. The Circles need to change, Im not blind of the abuses

Oh, and besides, the argument that "they will always put their lives above the mundanes" is laughable. Of course they will. And above other mages. That's the most natural instinct - putting your own life above everyone else's. Exceptions can be made for family and friends and, of course, and there are those slightly crazy martyrs who would gladly give their lives for a perfect stranger - but generally speaking instinct to care for yourself first is pretty strong - and has nothing to do with being a mage or not.

So its ok to betray the people who sheltered you because you are afraid? They invited Tevinter, let them take over Redcliff, mistreat any not mage and they dont want to take responsability about it, this proves to me they need to stay in the Circles.

[Eliastion]

Wow that just one of greatest bs concerning mages i have ever heard and i heard a lot.

Zathrian created curse that lasted centuries and harmed not only people responsible for that (that died long time ago) but also normal people that had nothing to do with it so please explain how it would be as same destructive if zathrian didn't have magic...

And your excuse for velanna is mega bs i would love to see her going on killing spree without magic she would be dead in 10 seconds or prob even didn't do anything because she wouldn't have power to do that .

 

And now let me ask simple question who caused that tragedy in circle no one other than bunch (large one) of corrupted mages no one other could cause that in fact only circle prevented them from escaping and blowing up ferelden causing disaster on national scale if not larger. As i said blame mages (they caused disaster) templars were there to protect world from them and they did it and how many peoples would be killed if not templars destroying abomnations in circles a much more.

Let's kill every mage child rigth away, then, that's the only way to be sure!

It's this reasoning, just without the "we need them as living weapons" part.

 

And if you believe there can be no dangerous people without magic in Thedas, think again. Or maybe don't think - go and play. It's a world with quite strong heroic twist, meaning that great warrior is as capable of going on killing spree as a mage.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Let's kill every mage child rigth away, then, that's the only way to be sure!

It's this reasoning, just without the "we need them as living weapons" part.

 

And if you believe there can be no dangerous people without magic in Thedas, think again. Or maybe don't think - go and play. It's a world with quite strong heroic twist, meaning that great warrior is as capable of going on killing spree as a mage.

Well to be honest it is for me best solution and that is what i wanted to do in dai.

 

Nah nah nah lets not go into that direction because you will burn yourself of course ever person can be dangerous but what matters how dangerous something is you can have kitchen knife despite it is dangerous but you can; have machine gun or nuclear weapon because they are far far much more dangerous.

 

I never saw great warrior trying or even having means to blow up world hell i never saw great warrior going on single rampage in village in daverse unlike child mage that was able take over whole castle and destroy village with ease and many other similar events with mages behind it.

[Eliastion]

The real fact is those problems were all causes by mages, those problems were elevated because magic and those problems could be avoided if they were in the Circles.

Problems still happen despite circles, often because of circles - though usually this one is not direct. Take Connor, if sending him to Circle wouldn't roughly equal life imprisonment (so if there were a mage-teaching institution that wouldn't be a slave camp) he would be sent there. How many people would live then?

Should I remember you of Anders? His clinic helped a lot of peoples, but his explosion killed hundreds and his act provoked a war that killed thousands, not a worth trade off.

If the system weren't so terribly broken, there would be no war. Also, wasn't it dwarven lyrium explosive, not a spell?
 

Of course they count, but the numbers of death would be higher if they were free.

Or it would be much harder to find other desperates, then it would definitely be much harder to find mage victims for turning into abominations...
 

So its ok to betray the people who sheltered you because you are afraid? They invited Tevinter, let them take over Redcliff, mistreat any not mage and they dont want to take responsability about it, this proves to me they need to stay in the Circles.

Fiona being an idiot is one thin, considerable presence of tevinter agents among mage "refugees" they took in is another thin, and then there is that earl that was feeding them false information so that they would believe in Templar army almost marching on them already...
Either way, what you say here is in no way related to them being mages at all. Rebels/refugees doing stupid things out of fear and desperation. Mind if I remind you of refugees who attack your warden in Lothering? Or, if you don't want to go back two games, there are those guys from Free Dales who devolved into bandits working for Venatori. If what Fiona did means they should be in circles, that means that EVERYONE should be in Circles, mage or not...

[TheKomandorShepard]

Problems still happen despite circles, often because of circles - though usually this one is not direct. Take Connor, if sending him to Circle wouldn't roughly equal life imprisonment (so if there were a mage-teaching institution that wouldn't be a slave camp) he would be sent there. How many people would live then?

If the system weren't so terribly broken, there would be no war. Also, wasn't it dwarven lyrium explosive, not a spell?
 
Or it would be much harder to find other desperates, then it would definitely be much harder to find mage victims for turning into abominations...
 
Fiona being an idiot is one thin, considerable presence of tevinter agents among mage "refugees" they took in is another thin, and then there is that earl that was feeding them false information so that they would believe in Templar army almost marching on them already...
Either way, what you say here is in no way related to them being mages at all. Rebels/refugees doing stupid things out of fear and desperation. Mind if I remind you of refugees who attack your warden in Lothering? Or, if you don't want to go back two games, there are those guys from Free Dales who devolved into bandits working for Venatori. If what Fiona did means they should be in circles, that means that EVERYONE should be in Circles, mage or not...

 

Circles aren't slave camps pretty much even devs said it wasn't slavery so no all you are doing is trying force emotional response using word "slavery" and no isolde didn't want to lose connor and want keep his son she would do it pretty much regardless not to mention that circles have one of best conditions in thedas.

 

System was broken but for different reasons that war was because corrupted divine send system to hell without that templars would keep situation undercontrol as we we could see in asunder until divine intervened sending whole system to hell.

 

Not rly we have fools like merril , power hungry like uldred , we have revenge seeking like zathrian.Pretty much every thing every emotion can push mage into creating disaster for example mage reaches for blood magic to heal his loved one ends possessed and ends with major disaster. Pretty much as we saw corruption in circles in ferelden and kirkwall were huge despite templars without it mages could just get scot free from that.Hell i can't even see what orsino is doing in his circle if we didn't have templars there and having free hand or uldred in ferelden circle.

 

As i said you can keep up with your " if nuclear weapon is ilegal knife should be ilegal as well" logic but only shows how desperate you are.

[Boost32]

Problems still happen despite circles, often because of circles - though usually this one is not direct. Take Connor, if sending him to Circle wouldn't roughly equal life imprisonment (so if there were a mage-teaching institution that wouldn't be a slave camp) he would be sent there. How many people would live then?

Or you could blame the maleficarium who was the responsible for Connor turning into a abomination.
And Connor is the proof that mages need the Circles.

If the system weren't so terribly broken, there would be no war. Also, wasn't it dwarven lyrium explosive, not a spell?

The system being broken doesnt excuse what Anders did, he killed thousand of innocent people with his blast and the debris. None of them were responsible for the what happened in the Circles.
It was of mix of Alchemy and Maigc.

 Or it would be much harder to find other desperates, then it would definitely be much harder to find mage victims for turning into abominations...

 
Like Connor, Marethari, The Shame of Serault, the little girl from chateu d'Onterre?

Fiona being an idiot is one thin, considerable presence of tevinter agents among mage "refugees" they took in is another thin, and then there is that earl that was feeding them false information so that they would believe in Templar army almost marching on them already...Either way, what you say here is in no way related to them being mages at all. Rebels/refugees doing stupid things out of fear and desperation. Mind if I remind you of refugees who attack your warden in Lothering? Or, if you don't want to go back two games, there are those guys from Free Dales who devolved into bandits working for Venatori. If what Fiona did means they should be in circles, that means that EVERYONE should be in Circles, mage or not...

They all deserve to be punished, the difference is the scale of the damage they can do.

[The Baconer]

Having a mage in commoner family generally lifts said family to lower noble class. There are slave mages, I think, but not commoner mages, I think, unless they are foreigners... So, technically speaking, Boost is right - mages who are not noble are not free

 

I wasn't refuting the existence of slave mages, but that the lower class mages are "sent" to Circles. Going to a Circle in Tevinter would actually be more indicative of rights and privilege than not.

[Eliastion]

Circles aren't slave camps pretty much even devs said it wasn't slavery(...)

Among many things that Devs can do, reassigning meanings of words is outside their power. It IS slavery whether they believe so or not.
 

(...) and no isolde didn't want to lose connor and want keep his son she would do it pretty much regardless not to mention that circles have one of best conditions in thedas.

If mages were free, sending Connor to Circle wouldn't mean losing him.
 

System was broken but for different reasons that war was because corrupted divine send system to hell without that templars would keep situation under control as we we could see in asunder until divine intervened sending whole system to hell.

Buildup of the conflict was obvious, Divine could, perhaps, delay it by a couple years.
 

Not rly we have fools like merril , power hungry like uldred , we have revenge seeking like zathrian.Pretty much every thing every emotion can push mage into creating disaster for example mage reaches for blood magic to heal his loved one ends possessed and ends with major disaster. Pretty much as we saw corruption in circles in ferelden and kirkwall were huge despite templars without it mages could just get scot free from that.Hell i can't even see what orsino is doing in his circle if we didn't have templars there and having free hand or uldred in ferelden circle.
 
As i said you can keep up with your " if nuclear weapon is ilegal knife should be ilegal as well" logic but only shows how desperate you are.

The thing is - you don't know how system with free mages would work out. The old one has a bad track record for pushing mages do desperation and yes, things happen. Also, you put a lot of faith in Templars, forgetting one thing - Templars with their abilities are, in fact, a prothesis. Their existance is an attempt to police mages (and other more-or-less magical threats like undead, demons and what-have-you) without mages - and that's a pretty bad idea. The best person to deal with a mage is, in fact, another mage trained in applicable magic. Templars could be a valuable backup, but relying on templars more than on mages is asking for threats that won't be properly contained when something happens.

We know for fact that it's possible to create magic (and magical items, even) that can pretty reliably counter demon summoning AND blood magic. But such studies are forbidden, so we're stuck with possibly a couple copies of Litany, rather than have each Templar officer equipped with it AND numerous mages able to cast it as a spell. It's possible, in fact it's possible now, without any lost ancient lore - but nobody researches it because "blood magic" and everyone pisses their pants.

The system where the main idea is to have the mages contained is simply dysfunctional even when it comes to actually containing real magical threats.

 

Of course the dangers are real, but perhaps treating mages as partners, for once, rather than as walking weapons with imminent meltdown could be more successful at providing security. Stuffing them in Circles hardly works, apostates are pretty much everywhere... and they have little to no access to proper training, while also being always on the run - which gives a pretty good incentive to learn any dangerous/forbidden magic they come across.

There are inherent dangers in the idea of free mages, but seeing as system with mages contained in Circles hardly works...

 

Although, to wrap it up (as I'm sure we won't reach any proper agreement either way) what I would really like to see is some honest analysis of certain systems that are used across Thedas.

We have Tevinter, but we don't know too much about the way mages learn their craft there. We have Rivain with its seers, but when discussion goes there, it's mostly speculation. We have Nevarra with Mortalitasi - technically they should be Andrastian (weren't Circle's central office in Nevarra?) but that mage order? What do they really do and what is their relationship with the Circle at large?

And those only the major nations, when it seems that pretty much every tribe has some shamanic tradition...

[Eliastion]

Or you could blame the maleficarium who was the responsible for Connor turning into a abomination.
And Connor is the proof that mages need the Circles.

This particular Maleficarum was a product of the Circle. And Connor is proof that mages need to be taught to control their abilities. Also, probably, that a runaway apprentice isn't exactly a model teacher.

They all deserve to be punished, the difference is the scale of the damage they can do.

The main problem concerns punishing people BEFORE they actually do anything. One of my regrets in DA:I was that I couldn't have Fiona executed, but that doesn't change my belief that lifetime imprisonment just for having something the Chantry itself has nerve to call Makre's "gift" is a sickening idea. Even if I do understand where the fear comes from.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Among many things that Devs can do, reassigning meanings of words is outside their power. It IS slavery whether they believe so or not.
 

If mages were free, sending Connor to Circle wouldn't mean losing him.
 

Buildup of the conflict was obvious, Divine could, perhaps, delay it by a couple years.
 

The thing is - you don't know how system with free mages would work out. The old one has a bad track record for pushing mages do desperation and yes, things happen. Also, you put a lot of faith in Templars, forgetting one thing - Templars with their abilities are, in fact, a prothesis. Their existance is an attempt to police mages (and other more-or-less magical threats like undead, demons and what-have-you) without mages - and that's a pretty bad idea. The best person to deal with a mage is, in fact, another mage trained in applicable magic. Templars could be a valuable backup, but relying on templars more than on mages is asking for threats that won't be properly contained when something happens.

We know for fact that it's possible to create magic (and magical items, even) that can pretty reliably counter demon summoning AND blood magic. But such studies are forbidden, so we're stuck with possibly a couple copies of Litany, rather than have each Templar officer equipped with it AND numerous mages able to cast it as a spell. It's possible, in fact it's possible now, without any lost ancient lore - but nobody researches it because "blood magic" and everyone pisses their pants.

The system where the main idea is to have the mages contained is simply dysfunctional even when it comes to actually containing real magical threats.

 

Of course the dangers are real, but perhaps treating mages as partners, for once, rather than as walking weapons with imminent meltdown could be more successful at providing security. Stuffing them in Circles hardly works, apostates are pretty much everywhere... and they have little to no access to proper training, while also being always on the run - which gives a pretty good incentive to learn any dangerous/forbidden magic they come across.

There are inherent dangers in the idea of free mages, but seeing as system with mages contained in Circles hardly works...

 

Although, to wrap it up (as I'm sure we won't reach any proper agreement either way) what I would really like to see is some honest analysis of certain systems that are used across Thedas.

We have Tevinter, but we don't know too much about the way mages learn their craft there. We have Rivain with its seers, but when discussion goes there, it's mostly speculation. We have Nevarra with Mortalitasi - technically they should be Andrastian (weren't Circle's central office in Nevarra?) but that mage order? What do they really do and what is their relationship with the Circle at large?

And those only the major nations, when it seems that pretty much every tribe has some shamanic tradition...

1.They already said circle isn't slavery as mages aren't possession if you prefer live in lie your choice...

2.If mages were free there would be disaster after disaster with mages like orsino or uldred and their follower having free hand to act also peoples like zathrian and many others as i said it takes little for mage to cause disaster.

3.Divine didn't dealay it divine caused it if lambet was left alone that rebelion would be end before it started and no war.

 

Of course i know you just keep ingoring everything i have said prefering live in comfortable lie instead truth i literally provided examples disasters caused by mages one after another and you ingnored it and that was while mages were under control now all you need to do is multiply several times (at least) numbers of disaster to see what is gonna happen if mages won't be watched and controlled. 

 

And now you make things up again because that mage is best to deal with mage is just bs that ignores everything in lore that mages pretty much mage is power up for an abomnation and also allows create more abomnations not to mention that mage don't rly have reason to protect intrest of non-mages where non-mage obvsly have also templars have specific skills to deal with mages and demons.

 

Not rly there are laws and security is in our world for good reason removing that just because if we trust them maybe they won't commit crime is just dumb and won't work.Same here.Your tevinter , dalish and rivian are best prove that trust don't mean crap here all of them pretty much were shown ticking bombs or blood mage on blood mage despite their freedom.