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#51
Dermain

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Perhaps I sound pedantic--but I want to hear them say that before I accept it.

 

They won't. BioWare makes games that fit in with their time period.

 

The Baldurs Gate series was made in a similar manner to other RPGs of the era. Mass Effect 2-3 and DA2-DAI are all considered "action" RPGs, which is the way RPGs are currently being made. Origins and ME1 are anomalies. Even Bethesda is "guilty" of it.

 

I have a feeling it has something to do wiith the changing demographics of people that actively play video games, but unless someone far more qualified that me actually does some research on it. Ideally, it isn't for a headline on some website, which is unlikely.



#52
Fast Jimmy

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Perhaps I sound pedantic--but I want to hear them say that before I accept it.

 

Them saying it will result in criticism and potential lost sales. So they won't.

 

They may try and make improvements to the tac cam for DA4, but that's only because its one of the most loudly decried aspects of the game currently (outside of the large amount of static fetch/delivery/murder quests). I'd be less than surprised, however, if the action side of the combat also got more of a boost, maybe with QTE or button combos activating powers (X, X, A, B unleashes Mighty Blow). 

 

Then again, maybe I'm totally wrong and the team had an amazing, awesome vision for DA:I that just couldn't get out of the gate due to technical limitations and challenges. Maybe the tac cam couldn't work as intended with Frostbite, or maybe the pulled back nature of the tac cam mode ate up too many resources, which is why time can only be moved forward slowly, or why commands issued in tac cam get cleared out of the "queue" whenever the player goes back to "action" mode. Given how much Bioware tried to do with this game from strictly a technical standpoint, I could see this being the case.

 

My problem is then that they not only decided that the game was okay enough as it is to be considered a good tactical experience (which I can understand - its not well designed, but it IS functional), but that they went on to HYPE this pre-release, even as recently as a few weeks beforehand with the whole "PC games by PC gamers thing." THAT to me shows that they didn't see any problems with the system, that it wasn't an incomplete, rough product from what they envisioned, but that they really believed the system was exactly as they designed it. And that means they just aren't that involved with that type of mechanic to be critical enough to say "can someone play the whole game like this?" 

 

 

Either that or their PR is INCREDIBLY stupid. Given some of Bioware's previous PR gaffs, I can buy this being the case. 



#53
Dermain

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Them saying it will result in criticism and potential lost sales. So they won't.

 

They may try and make improvements to the tac cam for DA4, but that's only because its one of the most loudly decried aspects of the game currently (outside of the large amount of static fetch/delivery/murder quests). I'd be less than surprised, however, if the action side of the combat also got more of a boost, maybe with QTE or button combos activating powers (X, X, A, B unleashes Mighty Blow). 

 

Then again, maybe I'm totally wrong and the team had an amazing, awesome vision for DA:I that just couldn't get out of the gate due to technical limitations and challenges. Maybe the tac cam couldn't work as intended with Frostbite, or maybe the pulled back nature of the tac cam mode ate up too many resources, which is why time can only be moved forward slowly, or why commands issued in tac cam get cleared out of the "queue" whenever the player goes back to "action" mode. Given how much Bioware tried to do with this game from strictly a technical standpoint, I could see this being the case.

 

My problem is then that they not only decided that the game was okay enough as it is to be considered a good tactical experience (which I can understand - its not well designed, but it IS functional), but that they went on to HYPE this pre-release, even as recently as a few weeks beforehand with the whole "PC games by PC gamers thing." THAT to me shows that they didn't see any problems with the system, that it wasn't an incomplete, rough product from what they envisioned, but that they really believed the system was exactly as they designed it. And that means they just aren't that involved with that type of mechanic to be critical enough to say "can someone play the whole game like this?" 

 

 

Either that or their PR is INCREDIBLY stupid. Given some of Bioware's previous PR gaffs, I can buy this being the case. 

 

PR is always stupid. They're limited by what marketing allows them to say.


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#54
Dutchess

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Maybe the tac cam couldn't work as intended with Frostbite, or maybe the pulled back nature of the tac cam mode ate up too many resources, which is why time can only be moved forward slowly, or why commands issued in tac cam get cleared out of the "queue" whenever the player goes back to "action" mode. 

I doubt it's Frostbite. Modders have already managed to pull the camera more  back.

 

6IRTYdk.jpg

 

http://forum.cheaten...c.php?p=5566220



#55
Scofield

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would love for them to do it, in some sort of stealth game, because combat aint really there stong point either tbh



#56
Fast Jimmy

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I doubt it's Frostbite. Modders have already managed to pull the camera more back.

6IRTYdk.jpg

http://forum.cheaten...c.php?p=5566220


I had heard as much, but haven't seen the mods in action myself. If it really is the case and some random fans took the "unmoddable" FB3 and made a better system in six weeks than Bioware did in four years... well, like I said - they should make the game they want, not the game they think fans want. Because they are clearly not expert at creating what fans want.

#57
Fast Jimmy

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EA, I wanted to go back and touch on a few points I don't think I addressed fully.

Do we know that? I realize Laidlaw made those "We finally made the game we wanted to make" comments but that was bullsh*t PR.

It wasn't just Laidlaw that said that, BTW. For instance, John Epler had said in his Twitter feed that DA:I was finally the game he went into video game development to make. John Epler - the cinematic director - said that about a game that removed cinematics from every conversation outside of the main quest.

Mind you - I'm not against Bioware dialing back their cinematic focus, but the reason why is that some older games allowed for much more nuance and variance to accomplish things or have events play out differently. DA:I eschews that for more quests, more areas and more NPCs, all of which are flat and have zero variance.

Still - for the cinematic designer to say that makes me scratch my head... it sounds like the game he wishes Bioware made was more like TellTale, where main story cinematics are of high quality and there is NO side content. Which, to be honest, might not be a bad move for Bioware to make. Then again, they have changed the DNA of every DA game to date in each installment not to mention sunk a lot of resources into making this whole open world RPG thing work, so the ship on changjng DA in a new, radical direction has likely sailed at this point.

None are anything like DA. How many tactics based RPGs are there out there? Wasteland 2 forces you to control all characters (it also has a terribly boring and overly fantasy game world), so does Shadowrun (which is overly simplistic and has a nonsensically fantasy game world). The only other game I know that does what DA does is FF 12, DA's predecessor (yes, that was a serious statement).

In terms of story and tactics, Divinity: Original Sin does a good job of making your party of two mechanic interesting. I'm not a huge fan of the Rock/Paper/Scissors persuasion system, but fighting with yourself (so to speak) made for a rather interesting feature. Not to mention the additional companions you can recruit on top of that (or the fact that you can play co-op, although I haven't tried that and don't know of anyone else who has outside of just a few minutes as a novelty).

Also, I think Banner Saga did a really stand up job making a turn-based, tactical system that was easy to learn and yet still challenging. And it's story, as well as development of characters, is pretty gripping.

And, of course, there is Pillars of Eternity. Which should just be named "Kickstarter's Litmus Test," since, while it hasn't garnered the highest dollars or amount of backers for a video game, it still seems to be the Golden Child of the indie video game circles, especially for RPGs. There will be companions and definitely tactics, although the beta-testers I've talked to seem to not think HUGELY high of some of the design decisions, it still is RPG down to its bones.

ShadowRun may not be story or party based the way a DA game is, but I can hardly say it doesn't fall into the subset, despite the overly easy nature of ShadowRun's power leveling. And Wasteland 2 plays like an old Fallout game, but with four controllable PCs instead of one, which is exactly what I think they were going for. It's not perfect and the game traded a feeling of openness and freedom (which fell flat in the Nevada section, but came through strong in LA) for a story that has some stumbling blocks to engaging the player.

So I don't think a game has come out that fits DA's exact spot in the industry, but that's just a little unfortunate and may even be just a matter of time.

#58
Seagloom

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In terms of story and tactics, Divinity: Original Sin does a good job of making your party of two mechanic interesting. I'm not a huge fan of the Rock/Paper/Scissors persuasion system, but fighting with yourself (so to speak) made for a rather interesting feature. Not to mention the additional companions you can recruit on top of that (or the fact that you can play co-op, although I haven't tried that and don't know of anyone else who has outside of just a few minutes as a novelty).
 

 

A friend and I have been playing through it on and off for months now as our schedules allow. We are around forty to fifty hours in now. At one point we started over to remake our characters so total play time is at least sixty hours.

 

Co-op DOS is phenomenal. When we play together, we will sometimes disagree on the outcome of a quest. One time we disagreed so strongly he threw a fire spell at me afterward in retaliation. I excel at rock-paper-scissor mind games. :P My gal has 0 points in charisma while his has several. I still often win. XD The system still sucks, though, agreed. If I miss two guesses he will win the argument due to his character's sky high charisma. I understand why they went with a quick and dirty way to resolve conflict resolution, but the system is hardly fair.

 

The tactics is where DOS really shines. It was definitely a stand out game in 2014. Basically what ToEE could have been years back were it not a buggy and unfinished mess. We are playing two lone wolf mages. His specced in fire/air and mine in water/earth. We constantly need to play with an eye for teamwork since we need each others' spells for combos. For harder fights we had to discuss tactics after losses. In terms of turn-based goodness, DOS is a phenomenal game. I would recommend its co-op mode to anyone interested in older style RPGs.

 

Its one glaring flaw in co-op, other than the aforementioned argument minigame, is how long inventory management takes. My friend is always in for a long wait after we clear dungeons so I can make the circuit between merchants to unload our gains. Pfaugh. :P

 

/tangent



#59
Guest_TrillClinton_*

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A friend and I have been playing through it on and off for months now as our schedules allow. We are around forty to fifty hours in now. At one point we started over to remake our characters so total play time is at least sixty hours.
 
Co-op DOS is phenomenal. When we play together, we will sometimes disagree on the outcome of a quest. One time we disagreed so strongly he threw a fire spell at me afterward in retaliation. I excel at rock-paper-scissor mind games. :P My gal has 0 points in charisma while his has several. I still often win. XD The system still sucks, though, agreed. If I miss two guesses he will win the argument due to his character's sky high charisma. I understand why they went with a quick and dirty way to resolve conflict resolution, but the system is hardly fair.
 
The tactics is where DOS really shines. It was definitely a stand out game in 2014. Basically what ToEE could have been years back were it not a buggy and unfinished mess. We are playing two lone wolf mages. His specced in fire/air and mine in water/earth. We constantly need to play with an eye for teamwork since we need each others' spells for combos. For harder fights we had to discuss tactics after losses. In terms of turn-based goodness, DOS is a phenomenal game. I would recommend its co-op mode to anyone interested in older style RPGs.
 
Its one glaring flaw in co-op, other than the aforementioned argument minigame, is how long inventory management takes. My friend is always in for a long wait after we clear dungeons so I can make the circuit between merchants to unload our gains. Pfaugh. :P
 
/tangent


D:OS is amazing. The magic itself was implemented at such a very reactive and large scale. There was one mission where I needed a high perception to follow footsteps, I was a magic and strength user. All I had to do was summon my ice demon and the footsteps showed up. I was happy.

#60
Fast Jimmy

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D:OS is amazing. The magic itself was implemented at such a very reactive and large scale. There was one mission where I needed a high perception to follow footsteps, I was a magic and strength user. All I had to do was summon my ice demon and the footsteps showed up. I was happy.


Ice Demons... now with high Perception! Limited time offer, only while supplies last.
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#61
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They won't. BioWare makes games that fit in with their time period.
 
The Baldurs Gate series was made in a similar manner to other RPGs of the era. Mass Effect 2-3 and DA2-DAI are all considered "action" RPGs, which is the way RPGs are currently being made. Origins and ME1 are anomalies. Even Bethesda is "guilty" of it.
 
I have a feeling it has something to do wiith the changing demographics of people that actively play video games, but unless someone far more qualified that me actually does some research on it. Ideally, it isn't for a headline on some website, which is unlikely.

 
I would consider ME1 just as much of an action RPG as the other two. It's simply more "action" and less "shooter" with stuff like the biotics.
 
I vehemently disagree about DA ][. Vehemently. DA ][ has the same combat system as DA:O. You don't have the tactical camera, but you have everything else.
 
But I understand your point.

Them saying it will result in criticism and potential lost sales. So they won't.
 
They may try and make improvements to the tac cam for DA4, but that's only because its one of the most loudly decried aspects of the game currently (outside of the large amount of static fetch/delivery/murder quests). I'd be less than surprised, however, if the action side of the combat also got more of a boost, maybe with QTE or button combos activating powers (X, X, A, B unleashes Mighty Blow). 
 
Then again, maybe I'm totally wrong and the team had an amazing, awesome vision for DA:I that just couldn't get out of the gate due to technical limitations and challenges. Maybe the tac cam couldn't work as intended with Frostbite, or maybe the pulled back nature of the tac cam mode ate up too many resources, which is why time can only be moved forward slowly, or why commands issued in tac cam get cleared out of the "queue" whenever the player goes back to "action" mode. Given how much Bioware tried to do with this game from strictly a technical standpoint, I could see this being the case.
 
My problem is then that they not only decided that the game was okay enough as it is to be considered a good tactical experience (which I can understand - its not well designed, but it IS functional), but that they went on to HYPE this pre-release, even as recently as a few weeks beforehand with the whole "PC games by PC gamers thing." THAT to me shows that they didn't see any problems with the system, that it wasn't an incomplete, rough product from what they envisioned, but that they really believed the system was exactly as they designed it. And that means they just aren't that involved with that type of mechanic to be critical enough to say "can someone play the whole game like this?" 
 
 
Either that or their PR is INCREDIBLY stupid. Given some of Bioware's previous PR gaffs, I can buy this being the case.


Yeah, that's true.
 

EA, I wanted to go back and touch on a few points I don't think I addressed fully.

It wasn't just Laidlaw that said that, BTW. For instance, John Epler had said in his Twitter feed that DA:I was finally the game he went into video game development to make. John Epler - the cinematic director - said that about a game that removed cinematics from every conversation outside of the main quest.

Mind you - I'm not against Bioware dialing back their cinematic focus, but the reason why is that some older games allowed for much more nuance and variance to accomplish things or have events play out differently. DA:I eschews that for more quests, more areas and more NPCs, all of which are flat and have zero variance.

Still - for the cinematic designer to say that makes me scratch my head... it sounds like the game he wishes Bioware made was more like TellTale, where main story cinematics are of high quality and there is NO side content. Which, to be honest, might not be a bad move for Bioware to make. Then again, they have changed the DNA of every DA game to date in each installment not to mention sunk a lot of resources into making this whole open world RPG thing work, so the ship on changjng DA in a new, radical direction has likely sailed at this point.


That makes me scratch my head too. But your conclusion doesn't make sense to me at all, because DA I was literally the opposite: it was overflowing with trash side content. So it's a weird statement. I don't know what to make of that.

In terms of story and tactics, Divinity: Original Sin does a good job of making your party of two mechanic interesting. I'm not a huge fan of the Rock/Paper/Scissors persuasion system, but fighting with yourself (so to speak) made for a rather interesting feature. Not to mention the additional companions you can recruit on top of that (or the fact that you can play co-op, although I haven't tried that and don't know of anyone else who has outside of just a few minutes as a novelty).

Also, I think Banner Saga did a really stand up job making a turn-based, tactical system that was easy to learn and yet still challenging. And it's story, as well as development of characters, is pretty gripping.

And, of course, there is Pillars of Eternity. Which should just be named "Kickstarter's Litmus Test," since, while it hasn't garnered the highest dollars or amount of backers for a video game, it still seems to be the Golden Child of the indie video game circles, especially for RPGs. There will be companions and definitely tactics, although the beta-testers I've talked to seem to not think HUGELY high of some of the design decisions, it still is RPG down to its bones.

ShadowRun may not be story or party based the way a DA game is, but I can hardly say it doesn't fall into the subset, despite the overly easy nature of ShadowRun's power leveling. And Wasteland 2 plays like an old Fallout game, but with four controllable PCs instead of one, which is exactly what I think they were going for. It's not perfect and the game traded a feeling of openness and freedom (which fell flat in the Nevada section, but came through strong in LA) for a story that has some stumbling blocks to engaging the player.

So I don't think a game has come out that fits DA's exact spot in the industry, but that's just a little unfortunate and may even be just a matter of time.


I haven't played D:OS yet (I'll get it when it goes on sale for $20 or $15), but while that two-PC system sounds interesting, it doesn't sound like Bioware at all. And I suspect the combat is less like DA and more like BG (just a hunch, I have no information).

Never played the Banner Saga, honestly have no idea what it's like.

Pillars I imagine will play like an Infinity Engine game. Does DA:O play like an Infinity Engine game?

I definitely agree that Shadowrun is within the same category of "tactical RPG." Better in some ways because it's real turns, and has an AP system. But it's very simple. It doesn't scratch the Hammer & Sickle itch as much lightly rub it (no, nothing weird meant here).

I had hopes for Wasteland 2. But honestly, after playing like an hour and my first two enemies being a gigantic roly-poly bug and a deformed rabbit with fangs, it's hard to take that game seriously.


I'd agree that they're all subsets of tactical RPGs, and it's great that we've got more tactical RPGs out there. But none do what DA does, which is have an AI-based combat system where you can take as much or as little control as you desire (technically it still has this, though it's deviating into action territory, requiring more user control).

#62
Sully13

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Backpack baby FTW!

Also...

hqdefault.jpg

They actualy met in one eppisode.



#63
Dermain

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I would consider ME1 just as much of an action RPG as the other two. It's simply more "action" and less "shooter" with stuff like the biotics.
 
I vehemently disagree about DA ][. Vehemently. DA ][ has the same combat system as DA:O. You don't have the tactical camera, but you have everything else.
 
But I understand your point.

 

Yes, but the attacks were sped up. Therefore it is an entirely different combat system, it has been actionized!!! What is BioWare thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :rolleyes:

 

The complaints about the combat in DA2 being more "actiony" than DAO always confused me.

 

If anything, they made the attacks MORE realistic, but you'll never win with the combat "realism" crowd.