45 réponses à ce sujet

[Saphiron123]

Don't get me wrong, it's sort of minor versus losing tactics or most of our magical options (seriously, I miss blood magic) but I actually really miss attribute points.

As with most of my design questions it has to do with a disconnect in the same vein as fewer cutscenes and no enemy introductions.

I couldn't tell you what attributes do what in DAI. I couldn't be less interested in stat enhancing gear because I don't know what my stats actually are... In short, they took the option to build my character as I please away from me.

Auto level is fine, but give me the option. Let me put points in the stats I think I need them in, let me build my own guy and decide if I want to emphasize stamina or health or strength.

It's such an odd thing to remove, less mind blowing than tactics (I swear to god Solas, if you cast barrier on me one more time twenty seconds before the enemy is even in striking distance, you're off the team...) but still, this is not a tiny and outdated rpg feature.

I seriously could not tell you a single stat on my inquisitor right now... +10 to willpower? Does that give me stamina? Is 10 a lot? No idea. And this is coming from a fan whose played every bioware game ever made.

[ontwonadot]

All you have to do is hover over the stats in your Attributes menu to see what they do. Then you can build your abilities and passives around the attribute boosts you want.

[Koneko Koji]

I get your frustration - I loved being able to customise my Warden in Origins, and the agonising satisfaction of trynig to decide where to put the skill points for best effect - I don't get that with Inquisition, to be honest, after unlocking the first 4 or 5 skills and then upgrading their little diamonds, I can't be bothered with the attribute trees at all - which is a real shame.

[Saphiron123]

Doesn't really matter what the skills do when you have 20-24 levels and each one gives you almost random stat increases.

I just found myself totally disinterested in stats in inquisition, when I used to put tons of thought into the earlier titles.

[Hexoduen]

+1 OP.

 

3000 replies here on topic: http://forum.bioware...vel-up/page-121

 

There should be an option of manually or automatically allocating attribute points at each level up.

[Rawgrim]

One of many mistakes.

[Hiemoth]

I agree. I actually had this moment after about 20+ hours when I found an item that gave a strength bonus when I realized didn't know how significant a bonus it was. I had just kind of operated assuming that it was a similar system to DAO/DA2, but I didn't really know how the values scaled. Of course I checked it out after that, but on the whole the attribute points seemed really just disconnected to me.

 

Additionally, it really limited the builds you could do for the characters. DA2, which to me has currently the best character development system, allowed you several approached to each class once you understood the system, which wasn't really as straight-forward as it should have been. In DAI, it kind of just felt really constrained. I am actually somewhat curious on the reasoning behind this decision, as it was a somewhat curious decision.

[actionhero112]

I like attributes on level up too. It's minor because you can boost attributes with crafting and equipment, but I like the feel of leveling up my character independent to my armor and weapons. I don't like feeling like I'm worthless without my armor, I'm not roleplaying my armor or weapon.

[Frenrihr]

Basically they want you to play the game the way they think you should play it, thats it.

 

On the other hand there is a way to see what each stats do in game, not like they matter since bassically there is the mage stat the rogue stat and the warrior stat and there is will power which is the redundant boy, maybe you didnt see this because of the bad UI.

[Abyss108]

Well stats were pointless the way they were in origins. There was never any benefit to putting stats in your non primary stats. 

 

I don't mind stats coming back, if they rework the system so their are different useful builds, but at the moment I don't see a reason for them.

[ZeroClues]

This is definitely a baffling thing to me. Combined with an extremely poor interface, it makes it very hard to figure out (or care) what stats actually do. Just as baffling, is the fact that, as far as I can tell, +Magic and +Spellpower (or whatever the second mage stat is) or whatever do the same thing for mages. This is a side effect of taking out the possibility of increasing the mana pool. You are left with another stat that does nothing of its own. So why even have 2 stats.

 

Mages in general have been gimped in this update. Their spells do extremely weak damage (150 damage fireballs when "squishy" archers have 2,000+ HP??). There are very few utility spells. If you recalls in earlier games, especially in origins, mages had a very wide range if interesting, different, and viable spells. Now there is far less differentiation in spells, far fewer spells, and the spells themselves are far more underwhelming. What's more important, most of the utility spells are gone. If you are going to overpower the enemies compared to spell damage by so much, then at least let us use utility spells for crowd control and to weaken them. Nope, those don't really exist.

 

At every stage this game removes choice in favor of limited, basic, unimaginative solutions. This game can basically be summed up as being a mile wide and an inch deep. The only reason I feel any attachment to what so ever is that the first two games got me interested in the story. So I bought this game and may even finish it despite all the annoyance and drawbacks. But guess what Bioware? This attachment will most certainly not be there for the next installment of the game or for the next game that you make in general. This how customers are lost, franchises die, and studios become inconsequential.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

this is another "feature". devs decided to take the burden of assigning stats off our hands, that leads to even less control over PC development. instead they applied stats in gear form - a typical MMO design imho, i despise it personally - how on earth boots can make you less susceptible to mind control? i get that they are very comfortable, but please.

it was done much better in TES - you can influence stat distribution by practice, this seems more natural

 

i understand why tho. gear is bought for platinum, right? 

[ontwonadot]

Basically they want you to play the game the way they think you should play it, thats it.

 

 

 

how dare they? It's not like it's their game that they made.

[Chiramu]

With the way the combat system is, taking away the ability to allocate stat points has destroyed the game play. In the previous games you always had to allocate points into constitution because in all Dragon Age games, Inquisition included everything hits too freaking hard. 

 

it is not fun playing on hard difficulties in Inquisition because of this lack of control. I cannot add more HP to my characters so everything hits WAY too hard. They needed to change the game play mechanics if they wanted to take this feature away. You cannot change one part of the game play and not change another otherwise it creates imbalance. 

[Innsmouth Dweller]

how dare they? It's not like it's their game that they made.

interesting... i think i should be happy they enjoy playing it then

[TobyJake]

I wouldn't worry too much! You only have 7 slots to fill anyway. Who needs stats. Thanks the unholy trinity at PAX. Mike, Mark & Cameron. No names

[caradoc2000]

how on earth boots can make you less susceptible to mind control?

Because one of these days dem boots are gonna walk all over the blood mages.

[Winged Silver]

The other thing to add on to this...for whatever reason, it seemed much harder to figure out what materials even added what stats. On my rogue, one of the things I really wanted to boost was willpower, since I always felt like I used up all my stamina so quickly. This might be better put as a notice on the schematics, but it seemed very limiting, that for the most part you either looked at stats and figured they were useless (I never even tried adding strength to my rogue), or didn't know what schematics/materials would even boost the ones you wanted.

 

I dunno. It was probably all there, and I just didn't see it, but considering that I'm usually not too shabby at weighing stats and throwing together a decent character, I wasn't overly thrilled with the simplification.

[tmp7704]

I had enough fun picking stats for my crafted gear and/or finding loot with ones that matched what I was after for my characters. To the point where I wouldn't even remember there could be option to click on +1 few times per level up, let alone miss that.

[tmp7704]

it is not fun playing on hard difficulties in Inquisition because of this lack of control. I cannot add more HP to my characters so everything hits WAY too hard.

There is both constitution stat and flat +hp bonus in DAI. You can equip gear with either, or a mix of both. My tank warriors would regularly run around with 40-50% more hp than the dps warrior as a result of equipping them with some attention and care.

[Rawgrim]

Well stats were pointless the way they were in origins. There was never any benefit to putting stats in your non primary stats. 

 

I don't mind stats coming back, if they rework the system so their are different useful builds, but at the moment I don't see a reason for them.

 

Not pointless when they let you equip all kinds of armours and weapons through high stats.

 

Watching Wynne kill Kolgrim with a critical hit using a greataxe is my favorite DA:O moment.

[miseryunited]

As some other posts have pointed out, you can really see Bioware struggling to define/redefine what it is to be a "mass appeal" RPG. This issue is a really good example of that process. 

 

The issue really isn't that they they took away attribute points, Its that they never really designed the game to make good use of them. It's a trend you can see from DA:O on wards. In DA the class and powers you choose define the characters abilities. The more they focus on that ideal the less stats seem to matter. At a certain point you have to ask yourself, why keep them if they don't matter? Having an RPG without stats smells a little of anathema so you end up with the transitory mess we have in DA:I. It's obvious someone came to the conclusion that the stats didn't matter much but they weren't comfortable actually pulling the trigger. Which would have been a better solution than including them in their neutered state. All it does now is remind us that the stats are worthless. 

 

RPGs are about two things, customization and choice (arguably the same thing). There is nothing about stats specifically that make them some RPG core other than tradition. Bioware just needs to decide one way or the other, commit, and follow through on the design. As long as the game scratches my customization itch, the stats don't really matter, unless of course they exist in some sort of under implemented, vestigial, state.

 

Do it right or rip them out. This half-assed, cover your bases approach isn't working for anyone.

[atlantico]

Well stats were pointless the way they were in origins. There was never any benefit to putting stats in your non primary stats. 

 

I don't mind stats coming back, if they rework the system so their are different useful builds, but at the moment I don't see a reason for them.

 

I agree, the stats were somewhat "pointless" - but instead of more or less removing them, I'd would have preferred that they made them meaningful. 

 

But it was certainly easier and cheaper just to remove them. 

 

I feel that phrase can be used on a lot of things in DA:I

[tmp7704]

RPGs are about two things, customization and choice (arguably the same thing). There is nothing about stats specifically that make them some RPG core other than tradition.

They would be called CCGs if that was the case, though. If stats are at the core of the RPGs then it's less because of tradition per se and more because there has to be some way to determine if, when the players says "my character stabs the waiter with a fork" or "I sneak past the guard and into the pantry", they actually manage to pull it off. Note, character not the player.

If some games are getting rid of it to some extent then it's because they turn into action "RPGs" where such things get second seat to how skilled the player is at pressing the buttons. As such it largely ceases to have any meaning whether character's agility is 5 or over 9000, it's down to whether the player presses the dodge button in time, or not.

[miseryunited]

They would be called CCGs if that was the case, though. If stats are at the core of the RPGs then it's less because of tradition per se and more because there has to be some way to determine if, when the players says "my character stabs the waiter with a fork" or "I sneak past the guard and into the pantry", they actually manage to pull it off. Note, character not the player.

If some games are getting rid of it to some extent then it's because they turn into action "RPGs" where such things get second seat to how skilled the player is at pressing the buttons. As such it largely ceases to have any meaning whether character's agility is 5 or over 9000, it's down to whether the player presses the dodge button in time, or not.

 

I think you are missing an important point here. Stats, of the kind the OP and I were referring to, are normally core ability scores that don't determine anything by themselves. Generally speaking, your class, level and attack type determine the outcome of an action with ability scores providing modifiers. Ability scores normally just provide the player the opportunity to tweak around the performance of a character withing the boundaries of class and level. That's just as true with Dragon Age as it is with D&D.

 

So to use your example. The Character successfully stabs the waiter because I'm a 4th level Warrior with Fork proficiency and the Waiter is a 2nd level Mage..... and I rolled really good on my attack. Ability scores just serve to blunt the effects of RNG on the outcomes. This is all pretty standard stuff.

When someone is talking about removing stats they are really just advocating removing a bit of customization, which in DA:I isn't even customizable. Doing that in no way makes the game more action oriented just like locking all fighters strength to 18 in D&D doesn't make that game more action oriented. On the other hand it might make it more bland, but that's a different argument.

 

To put a finer point on it, you could remove all ability scores and allow players to simply choose perks that enhanced damage, health, defense, magic, etc. "Stats" would go, players would still have customization options and no one would have to guess and wonder which thing does what or which stats were important for whom. To top it off, the game would be no more or less "RPG" or "Action-y".

Modifié par miseryunited, 26 janvier 2015 - 08:16 .