49 réponses à ce sujet

[Ophir147]

Conscripting the templars is not the same as conscripting the mages. Templars have a job to do, and that is to defend the world from mages, mages from the world, and mages from themselves. The responsibilities of mages basically amount to "don't get possessed and maybe cure a nobleman's flu every now and again."

 

Conscripting the templar holdouts dissolves the entire order, and forces them to work for the Inquisition. I highly doubt that Cassandra would want the templar order reduced to muscle for the Inquisition, especially if, during the subsumption you pretty much remove all of their leadership's current authority. If all goes well, the templar order should be prepared to go back to their original job of protecting mages after the Breach is sealed

[ElementalFury106]

This also holds true in the Well of Sorrows quest...where if you ask her opinion she says "If one of you must drink from the well, let Morrigan take the risk."

 

Then when you actually let Morrigan do it, she disapproves. What a load of crap.

[keesio74]

 

 I highly doubt that Cassandra would want the templar order reduced to muscle for the Inquisition, especially if, during the subsumption you pretty much remove all of their leadership's current authority. If all goes well, the templar order should be prepared to go back to their original job of protecting mages after the Breach is sealed

 

But from comments made by Cass during Champions of the Just, it sounded liked she was in favor of just that. I got the impression that she felt the Order was broken and didn't deserve to be rebuilt and that the Templars should serve the Inquisition. I recall it well because I was surprised she said it - I was certain she was strongly in favor of an alliance (before she said that).

[Patchwork]

Even in war room afterwards she sounds like she approves of conscripting the templars because of the mess at Therinfal but you still get disapproval points from her for it.

[keesio74]

Even in war room afterwards she sounds like she approves of conscripting the templars because of the mess at Therinfal but you still get disapproval points from her for it.

 

I'm starting to think she is very confused. She is a seeker who was loyal to the chantry. Everything is in chaos now and she don't know what to really believe. The once trusted Templars (to her) went nuts. The Chantry is in turmoil. She believes in the ideals of the Templars, not the corrupted mess they are now. She wants them redeemed but probably feels they don't deserve it... yet she wants and alliance anyway. She is just trying to figure things out herself like my Inquisitor. That's why I have a kinship with her. My other companions seems pretty set in their opinions. Cassandra is confused. You can hear her try to understand other points of view in her dialogue (if not even agree at times). I like that.

[Sjofn]

Maybe it is a part of her character?

 

She still wants the Templars around as an Order, and approves of that, but still wants to emphasize the problems with them so people don't forget.

She doesn't want the Templars disbanded, but is willing to move on because the decision is made.

 

So... she greatly approves of keeping the Order around, but greatly disapproves the Orders current actions, but the Orders current actions are not the Inquisitor's fault, so the approval/disapproval only comes from the former opinion rather than the latter. When she speaks after the decision is made, she is speaking of the recent actions of the Order, and allying is kind of side stepping it a bit while conscripting is a kind of punishment for the actions...

 

Maybe? I don't know, that's just my reasoning.

 

Except she says, during the quest, before you make the decision, that maybe the Templars should be disbanded and we just absorb the good ones into the Inquisition. She suggests you do the very thing she greatly disapproves of!

 

I could see her dropping maybe a slightly disapproves to reflect her self-doubt (she frets she's doing the wrong thing a lot, after all), or even a disapproves (because while she thinks it's the best decision, she might feel like maybe this is not something the Inquisition should be able to do), but nailing you with a Greatly Disapproves for something she suggested is just bizarre.

[keesio74]

Sjofn - yep totally agree. I understand that Cass is a conflicted character right now with everything falling apart around her (Chantry, Templars, etc) but this one instance is just way too inconsistent. Maybe after completing the quest, she changes her mind.

[shadey]

I thought cole's approval for choices was the most random, i guess since he is a spirit it's understandable as it's sense of morality is far different.

 

even though the seekers were corrupted she didn't want them disbanded, even though the chantry is practically destroyed she doesn't want it abandoned, so I think her views of the templars is the same, she would want them restored not disbanded. So I don't think disapproval for that action is out of character for her.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I don't see it. Her being angry at the templars is =/= you deciding to disband- practically removing the templar order. Cassandra has great amount of respect and love for the templars, of course she'd disapprove. 

[In Exile]

This also holds true in the Well of Sorrows quest...where if you ask her opinion she says "If one of you must drink from the well, let Morrigan take the risk."

Then when you actually let Morrigan do it, she disapproves. What a load of crap.

It's the *must* part that matters. What she's saying is the following:

I do not want anyone to drink. If someone will drink it should not be the Inquisitor.

You garner disapproval on either clause.

But can you even refuse to drink from it? That is isn't it a mandatory choice between you and Morrigan?

[Riven326]

Just go by her character ideal.

Cassandra want to fix the mistake while preserve the present chantry core. Disband Templar mean you just destroy a militant part of Chantry.

I doubt she would've like it.

About the well, I don't know why it matter to her...

Bingo. It's about the chantry.

[Luqer]

I'm starting to think she is very confused. She is a seeker who was loyal to the chantry. Everything is in chaos now and she don't know what to really believe. The once trusted Templars (to her) went nuts. The Chantry is in turmoil. She believes in the ideals of the Templars, not the corrupted mess they are now. She wants them redeemed but probably feels they don't deserve it... yet she wants and alliance anyway. She is just trying to figure things out herself like my Inquisitor. That's why I have a kinship with her. My other companions seems pretty set in their opinions. Cassandra is confused. You can hear her try to understand other points of view in her dialogue (if not even agree at times). I like that.

Yes, that's what I like about her. You can choose not to pursue a romance with her, you could choose to disagree with her on certain views but you could still form a strong sense of trust and friendship with her if you maintained a good sense of integrity and morality. Its what makes her unique as like in real life, you could be best friends with someone you constantly argue with and probably want to punch in the face so long as there's at least one common ground between each other. Its represented quite well with Varric's shaky relationship with Cassandra, the only party member that Varric isn't always so friendly with but you could tell that they do share a close bond.

 

 

I thought cole's approval for choices was the most random, i guess since he is a spirit it's understandable as it's sense of morality is far different.

What? No, Cole's approval isn't random. All you have to do to gain his approval is to be a decent person who helps people and I find it surprising that there are players who still don't understand that. Just be a good person, its not that hard. His approval for the main quests stay consistent with his values which are highly altruistic.

 

The end of the Adamant Wardens quest: the Wardens actions reminds him too much of corrupt Templars, men in armor who band together under a vague sense of "I know I'm right" who ultimately cause more harm to people than good. He'll disapprove of an alliance with them as they could potentially be as much of a threat as the Templars.

 

The end of the Winter Palace quest: Don't let people die if you can which includes Celene even if she may not deserve a chance at living. Bonus approval if you bring Celene and Briala together as it helps "mend the hurt" inside them even if it leads to Gaspard's execution which wouldn't be your fault.

 

The end of the Arbor Wilds quest: Like with Blackwall, Cole perceives the act of drinking from the Well as an act of self-sacrifice. Putting your life at risk so that another life wouldn't be put in danger.  

[Sjofn]

I thought cole's approval for choices was the most random, i guess since he is a spirit it's understandable as it's sense of morality is far different.

 

even though the seekers were corrupted she didn't want them disbanded, even though the chantry is practically destroyed she doesn't want it abandoned, so I think her views of the templars is the same, she would want them restored not disbanded. So I don't think disapproval for that action is out of character for her.

 

I don't see it. Her being angry at the templars is =/= you deciding to disband- practically removing the templar order. Cassandra has great amount of respect and love for the templars, of course she'd disapprove. 

 

Cassandra suggests you disband them. I can keep repeating that as many times as necessary. If she didn't suggest it, I wouldn't think twice about how her approval is scored for disbanding them, because while she is all about Tough Love (she does, actually, consider that maybe the Seekers should be disbanded as well), I would've assumed her Tough Love only goes so far. Hell, the first time I sided with and then conscripted the Templars, I didn't have her with me, so I didn't think about her approval at all.

 

But the next time I went through that quest (with the intent to keep the Order together), I was surprised to hear her suggest I do the thing she had so strongly disapproved of. During the quest, she is clearly horrified by what's happened and how thoroughly corrupt the Templars have become (not surprising), and she specifically says they should be disbanded and absorbed into the Inquisition (not entirely surprising either, really). Because as she herself says, we don't the institution, we just need the Templars. Her Greatly Disapproves when you actually do it makes no sense when you take that into account.

 

It isn't just "oh, she's mad at the Order." It's "she has an extremely strong reaction to the events she's witnessing, AND ALSO suggests a course of action she feels would be the correct one." Like I said, if it was a milder disapproves, I could rationalize it in any number of ways, from her self-doubt to her fear of the Inquisition being misused, etc. But Greatly Approve/Disapprove seems to be reserved for really, really defining characteristics, and it seems really strange for the otherwise very say-exactly-what-she-means Cassandra to contradict herself so completely.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

*snip*

When exactly does she suggest disbanding the order? I've only ever sided with Templars and Cassandra never left my team.

[Arvaarad]

The end of the Winter Palace quest: Don't let people die if you can which includes Celene even if she may not deserve a chance at living. Bonus approval if you bring Celene and Briala together as it helps "mend the hurt" inside them even if it leads to Gaspard's execution which wouldn't be your fault.

What? That can't be it. In my first playthrough, I left Celene on the throne, convinced her not to execute anyone, and disgraced Florianne instead of killing her, but Cole greatly disapproved.

I assumed that he didn't approve because I got loads of court approval (he said afterwards that he didn't like the Game because people didn't say what they meant), or because he felt Florianne should have died. He does think that bad people deserve death - he killed Lambert after all.

[Luqer]

What? That can't be it. In my first playthrough, I left Celene on the throne, convinced her not to execute anyone, and disgraced Florianne instead of killing her, but Cole greatly disapproved.

I assumed that he didn't approve because I got loads of court approval (he said afterwards that he didn't like the Game because people didn't say what they meant), or because he felt Florianne should have died. He does think that bad people deserve death - he killed Lambert after all.

Yeah, I was confused about that too as I received Greatly Disapproval from him in my first playthrough of that quest. However, I then learn that its because I failed to bring Celene and Briala together since I didn't talk to them first nor did I find the locket in Celene's hidden room. 

 

Also, even if you don't bring them together, Cole will still approve of the Inquisitor revealing all three (Celene, Briala, and Gaspard) of their deception and manipulation followed by demanding them to work together/get the last laugh over them/tell them that they work for you now. My guess, its cause you prevent the 3 of them from trying to kill each other and their respective people... for now. You don't bring Celene and Briala together but at least you've put a stop to their machinations through honesty.

[Robert Trevelyan]

This one did seem a little odd to me, also. But I think it's more because your not just conscripting them, you are actually disbanding the Templar order and integrating their numbers into The Inquisition.

[keesio74]

When exactly does she suggest disbanding the order? I've only ever sided with Templars and Cassandra never left my team.

 

I'm pretty sure it is around the time you make it to the Great Hall after you escape the Fade but before you start the section where you need to find some of the missing senior Templars and some lyrium (and periodically come back the the Great Hall to help the non-corrupted Templars hold off the red Templars). She doesn't say it while you are in an actual dialogue situation but just blurts out the comment on her own while you are moving around. You can miss it if you are not paying attention. I just remember it took me by surprise.

[Riven326]

This one did seem a little odd to me, also. But I think it's more because your not just conscripting them, you are actually disbanding the Templar order and integrating their numbers into The Inquisition.

One would think that Cass wound understand that the Inquisition needs officers and soldiers with experience fighting demons and the like. Conscripting veteran templars makes sense and also effectively disarms the chantry, which is probably the real reason why Cass strongly disapproves. Without the templars, the chantry's military might and influence are reduced to practically zero.

[Robert Trevelyan]

One would think that Cass wound understand that the Inquisition needs officers and soldiers with experience fighting demons and the like. Conscripting veteran templars makes sense and also effectively disarms the chantry, which is probably the real reason why Cass strongly disapproves. Without the templars, the chantry's military might and influence are reduced to practically zero.

 

Yes. Weirdly though she does approve of letting them CHOOSE to join.

[Vicious]

The same thing occurs with the Well.

Spoiler

If you ask what the party suggest, Cass says that Morrigan should take the risk, since Inky is more valuable. But then she approves of drinking it yourself and disapproves of Morrigan drinking it.

 

yeah, it's stupid

[9TailsFox]

The same thing occurs with the Well.

Spoiler

If you ask what the party suggest, Cass says that Morrigan should take the risk, since Inky is more valuable. But then she approves of drinking it yourself and disapproves of Morrigan drinking it.

[Riven326]

Pretty much.

[ThreeF]

And this is why Cassandra disapproves (this is what she says):

[ElementalFury106]

It's the *must* part that matters. What she's saying is the following:

I do not want anyone to drink. If someone will drink it should not be the Inquisitor.

You garner disapproval on either clause.

But can you even refuse to drink from it? That is isn't it a mandatory choice between you and Morrigan?

 

Not true. She approves if the Inquisitor drinks, even though she specifically tells the Inquisitor to let Morrigan do it.

 

You cannot refuse, it must be either you and Morrigan.