53 réponses à ce sujet

[Mushashi7]

I thought Vivienne would enjoy life in the country, so I made her follow the druffalo home in the Hinterlands

[TurretSyndrome]

There are very few well designed quests in DAO. That's exactly the problem. There are lots of cutscenes. But that's different from design. Since no one complained about the design before Bioware had no idea that removing the cutscenes - which was the foundation of the much loathed DA2 - they couldn't expect this reaction in DAI.

 

I have to disagree. I wasn't talking about cutscenes, wasn't even thinking about them. I was talking about the sheer amount of interactivity you had with the NPCs in DA:O. They didn't have to be labeled "Main Quest" to be fun to follow up on.

 

DA 2 had more of the fetch quests, although they were more "lost and found". But even DA 2 had the side quests and the Secondary quests which I enjoyed like the Unbidden Rescue, Magistrate's Orders or my favorite, The Bone Pit.

 

I don't care for cutscenes. It's not a problem I had when I was completing quests in DA:I and it makes for a weak excuse to blame it on the player. It was the shallow nature of the quests. As far as I'm concerned, Bioware filled its game with too much fluff.

[robertthebard]

Here's the problem with your argument
 
1. The current situation between Bhelen & Harrowmont is critical, and highly polical. Without a ruler the new warden cannot gain supprting troops from Orzammar to aid in the current Blight. To find Branka was extremely important considering the fact that she is a Paragon. Her voice is far greater than any Deshyr in the assembly.
 
2. You can either agree with Gregoir's R.o.A or prevent a genocidial slaughter by rescuing Irving while in the process of eliminating any threats that occurs in the Circle tower. If Irving surrives the attack from Ulred he becomes a key witness by vouching the defeat of Ulred, and that the circle is once again in total control. Once this has been completed the warden is rewarded with an addition army (The mages) to add to their list.
 
3. The Dalish elves are in dire shape. Their clan is being heavily attacked by contagiously vicious beasts. If you want the dalish to aid you in battle with the darkspawn you need to lend aid in their own struggle.... either way depending on who you side with you get rewarded with an additional army (Werewolves or the dalish elves).
 
4. Don't you think finding the element source for curing Arl Eamon Guerrin posion caused by an apostate to be essetinal? I do because hes the only one that knows how to deal with the polical affairs, and deal with the mess that Loghain Mac Tir has caused since his treachery back in Ostagar.
 
5. Without Brother Genitivi the warden would never have found The Urn of Sacred Ashes without his assistance.
 
Can you please explain to me what great impact did taking flowers, and putting it on some old mans wifes grave did other than to be "nice"?  Or what great impact was it to to hunt down 10 rams and collect 10 ram meat to feed the villegers all because the hunter is too lazy to do it himself? Yes things are quite dangerous in the Hinterlands, but guess what? Everyone must take risks.

It paints a picture of what the Inquisition is about. Is it really about restoring order and closing the Breach, or is it just a political power grab, which is a view point that people do take, see the Marquis in Viv's recruitment for an example. If they cut every single "fetch quest" out of Origins, it would be about 2 hours of combat to get to where you fight the Archdemon, including all the unavoidable fights on the way.

There would be no need to go into the Kocari Wilds, why isn't there plenty of Darkspawn Blood in camp, since they've already won 3 battles against them, and why didn't some of the more experienced Wardens just go get the treaties?

Lothering, oh yeah, fetch quest capital of Southern Thedas, yes?

Treaties: Hey, deal with your crap, and get your troops ready, send a messenger to the party camp when you're done.

Irony: The argument against this is going to be "But Rob, you use some of those to define what your character is going to be like". The response is, of course, yes, just like gathering food and marking supply caches for people at the crossroads defines the Inquisition. What seems to be lost in the "foaming at the mouth to bash" is that helping these people is exactly why you're doing what you're doing, even if you just focus on the rifts and ignore these fetch quests. That's what "restoring order" means.

[Rawgrim]

I love Origins but if you want, you can arguably say every quest regarding a faction allegiance has you fetching or running errands for someone:

 

Bhelen & Harrowmont: Fetch me Branka.

Gregoir: Fetch me Irving

Zathrian: Fetch me the heart of Snow Whi-Witherfang.

Arl Teagan/Lady Isolde: Fetch me the Sacred Ashes

Brother Genitivi: Fetch me the Sac- Oh, you are already doing that. Keep fetching then.

 

I would also add that it seems a tad unfair to call an elderly man lazy for needing help to put flowers on his wife's grave considering it is a distance from Redcliffe and every path to it is riddled with attackers, demons and bears that can challenge even a four-man party from the Inquisition. 

 

Those quests you list up had a story to them. That means they aren't fetch quests at all.

 

The ones where someone asks you to get 5 of this or two of these, and your only reward is a few coins an some xp points are fetch quests. Fetch quests are typically just chores with zero story to them and minimal dialogue.

[In Exile]

Those quests you list up had a story to them. That means they aren't fetch quests at all.

The ones where someone asks you to get 5 of this or two of these, and your only reward is a few coins an some xp points are fetch quests. Fetch quests are typically just chores with zero story to them and minimal dialogue.

But this is the problem. You get these ass quests because no one is calling out Bioware on their terrible quest design. If having a story makes whatever horrid design better then it just loops right back to cutscenes covering up the design.

[In Exile]

I have to disagree. I wasn't talking about cutscenes, wasn't even thinking about them. I was talking about the sheer amount of interactivity you had with the NPCs in DA:O. They didn't have to be labeled "Main Quest" to be fun to follow up on.

DA 2 had more of the fetch quests, although they were more "lost and found". But even DA 2 had the side quests and the Secondary quests which I enjoyed like the Unbidden Rescue, Magistrate's Orders or my favorite, The Bone Pit.

I don't care for cutscenes. It's not a problem I had when I was completing quests in DA:I and it makes for a weak excuse to blame it on the player. It was the shallow nature of the quests. As far as I'm concerned, Bioware filled its game with too much fluff.

Dialogue in DAO was a cutscene. I get you mean the conversation with NPCs but that's just the cutscene.

[Shechinah]

(to Rawgrim) Ah, I was under the impression that it was just the name of a type of quest structure with the execution being the adding of additional contents, more meaningful rewards and such.

 

I thought a majority of DA:I's quests being referred to as fetch quest was due the fact that people considered them to be basically just the quest structure - bare-boned essentially.

[Lord Raijin]

It paints a picture of what the Inquisition is about. Is it really about restoring order and closing the Breach, or is it just a political power grab, which is a view point that people do take, see the Marquis in Viv's recruitment for an example. If they cut every single "fetch quest" out of Origins, it would be about 2 hours of combat to get to where you fight the Archdemon, including all the unavoidable fights on the way.

There would be no need to go into the Kocari Wilds, why isn't there plenty of Darkspawn Blood in camp, since they've already won 3 battles against them, and why didn't some of the more experienced Wardens just go get the treaties?

Lothering, oh yeah, fetch quest capital of Southern Thedas, yes?

Treaties: Hey, deal with your crap, and get your troops ready, send a messenger to the party camp when you're done.

Irony: The argument against this is going to be "But Rob, you use some of those to define what your character is going to be like". The response is, of course, yes, just like gathering food and marking supply caches for people at the crossroads defines the Inquisition. What seems to be lost in the "foaming at the mouth to bash" is that helping these people is exactly why you're doing what you're doing, even if you just focus on the rifts and ignore these fetch quests. That's what "restoring order" means.

 

I haven't played orgins in over a month (Planning on playing it soon) but I don't recall ever having to interact with a fetch quest that was as outrageous as what was put into Inquisition. Care you explain why I must collect a certain amount of materials for these so-called geological surveys? What benefit could it give to my growing armies? Sure it gives me 100 influence points plus 1 power point... BIG DEAL! How can collecting these materials actually benefit me at defeating Corypheus? In fact it's doing the complete opposite considering the fact that these very same materials help me to craft my and my companions armor and weapons. WTF would I waste it on these ridiculous fetch quests?

 

You know I would actually accept fetch quest if it actually benefit my armies. Say if I wanted to upgrade my soldiers armor. I would have to go out and collect as many ingredients as I can to start the upgrade.

 

Doing these ridiculous fetch quests does not paint a picture of what Inquisition is all about as theirs no consequences of action if you choose not to do them or accept and complete the quest.

[atlantico]

All of these flaws, in case you're wondering, really started with KoTOR which Bioware has been remaking repeteadly with minor or major variations each time depending on the criticism.

 

That's the most insightful thing I've ever seen you post, and not just because I agree with it, but because it is subtle and takes a sharp eye to notice. 

 

But it's there.

[Saphiron123]

I love Origins but if you want, you can arguably say every quest regarding a faction allegiance has you fetching or running errands for someone:

 

Bhelen & Harrowmont: Fetch me Branka.

Gregoir: Fetch me Irving

Zathrian: Fetch me the heart of Snow Whi-Witherfang.

Arl Teagan/Lady Isolde: Fetch me the Sacred Ashes

Brother Genitivi: Fetch me the Sac- Oh, you are already doing that. Keep fetching then.

 

I would also add that it seems a tad unfair to call an elderly man lazy for needing help to put flowers on his wife's grave considering it is a distance from Redcliffe and every path to it is riddled with attackers, demons and bears that can challenge even a four-man party from the Inquisition. 

How are those fetch quests?

Those are main story quests to find major characters, supplemented with cut scenes, battles, hard decisions and genuine effects on the world and the characters and even future games.

A fetch quest inquisition is an old dude who thinks it's unsafe to walk to his wife's grave and wanted the head of the freaking inquisition to go lay flowers there. Or worse, a discarded piece of paper asking you to bring ashes to a temple thing in the emerald groves, and when you get there you get "quest complete" and 2 power. No dialogue, no interaction, definitely no effect on the world, the story, or even your character. Some for finding 48 copies of Varrick's book.

By your definition the best written quests in all of dragon age are exactly the same and just as much fun as finding 48 copies of Varrick's book for a reward of zero dialogue and 2 power.

Most games, even if you're the king of an empire, some guy will ask you to go deliver a letter or chop down a tree. Origins made fun of that, realized that players had a bigger purpose, and though there were a few small ones, they were forgivable because they were lodged in a massive narrative that was cinematic, personal, and affected the world around it. Inquisition has 100s of these, and half of them don't even include a word of dialogue.

Did you enjoy collecting 100+ shards? If so, an MMO might be right up your alley, we'd rather have story and big decisions, cut scenes and character dialogue... you know, a bioware game.

[Shechinah]

(to Saphiron123) See post #32 - I had a misconception about the terminology.

 

Regarding the shards, I haven't quite found all 100 of them but yes, I do enjoy it but I am entirely aware that I'm likely one of the few who do and it is something I sometimes take breaks from.

 

I do walk down the alleys of both single-player games and MMOs. For an example, I'm very much a fan of Warframe because I find it very relaxing to play especially with friends though the wait time for projects to complete can be a bit of a bother.

 

If you like story, big decisions, cutscenes and character dialogue have you ever considered trying Star Wars: The Old Republic, it's a MMO made by Bioware. It is quite fun.

[atlantico]

If you like story, big decisions, cutscenes and character dialogue have you ever considered trying Star Wars: The Old Republic, it's a MMO made by Bioware. It is quite fun.

 

No doubt. But it's an MMO.

[Shechinah]

(to atlantico) Eh, if you want you can always just ignore the other players and go on your merry way alone without participating in group activities. Each class-specific storyline-related quest is soloable. Outside of that, you just need to ignore the Heroic + missions.

[tmp7704]

How are those fetch quests?

Those are main story quests to find major characters, supplemented with cut scenes, battles, hard decisions and genuine effects on the world and the characters and even future games.

A fetch quest inquisition is an old dude who thinks it's unsafe to walk to his wife's grave and wanted the head of the freaking inquisition to go lay flowers there. Or worse, a discarded piece of paper asking you to bring ashes to a temple thing in the emerald groves, and when you get there you get "quest complete" and 2 power. No dialogue, no interaction, definitely no effect on the world, the story, or even your character. Some for finding 48 copies of Varrick's book.

In Exile is referring to the underlying goals of the quests, the stuff at the core that remains once you strip it from grandiose cut scenes, "the world depends on you, protagonist" writing and the hard decisions which boil down to Alistair disapproves -10, if that.

[Raoni Luna]

There are very few well designed quests in DAO. That's exactly the problem. There are lots of cutscenes. But that's different from design. Since no one complained about the design before Bioware had no idea that removing the cutscenes - which was the foundation of the much loathed DA2 - they couldn't expect this reaction in DAI.

You are all way too deep so I will tell you what really happens... why? Well the definition of a good quest, of a fetch quest, all this is way too much subjective so let's treat it the way it is!

 

How it happened in Origins: I went to a place, with moderate size, I explored the whole place and did all quests. No, the quests weren't OMG HOW AMAZING, but the fit into the exploration of the location. In all honesty I didn't feel like I was doing quests, fetchy or not. I felt like I had a major quest and that I liked exploring the places and in the end I finished  the quests so they felt part of the story. I didn't rescue the blacksmith daughter. I mean I didn't go there for that, I rescued her, she was there, I explored the map, so there she was and I help her. Except for Lothering and Denerim, I did not bother reading the journal and actually doing the quests, I was just playing my awesome game. But eventually, since I like to complete all quests, I took my time, before finishing my game to complete the quests. This part specifically felt a lot like Inquisition, however was just a small amount of hours.

 

Same thing happened in DA2.

 

Problem in Inquisition is that, from the moment I step into Hinterlands to the moment I deliver the final blow to the final boss is me following a mark on the map (either one the game puts or one I put myself). It feels, from beginning to the end like that moment in Origins in which I tried to complete the quests before going for the final battle. Is a huge Origins-pre-final-battle, a more than hundred hours one...

 

The quests don't quite "solve by themselves" like in Origins/2. You actually have to "perform" them. They don't fit in your routes, they are all, effectively, side, and very side-y at that, quests. The game makes sure they look extremely side-y for you. So at least for me, it is not about the phylosophical discussion of characteristics of the game but rather the weight it brings to you, in practice.

 

Of course it matter if you are interested in the story of a certain quest, but in Origins it didn't matter. Even skipping the text the quests kind of happened. So I'm not into stating that Origins quests were better, objectively, I'm actually saying that since they solved themselves by just exploring the map and having curiosity it felt a lot lighter. Now, again, Inquisition kind of fits it, but exploring 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 km² is a lot more difficult. And many quests require going to other maps, progressing story, doing war table missions and so on... like I said, that moment in Origins right before the final battle where I had to go to back to brecillian forest to fire an arrow... most of the quests just were there and I completed them.

So I will indeed say how it would be better in Inquisition, or how it would be "Origining":

Let's say that after Skyhold you needed to engage a quest with Solas to track Corypheus and it involved elvhen artifacts. You would need to solve problems in each map to have access to specific dungeons with interesting choices and final bosses. So, let's say, you would need to solve Chateau d'Onterre mystery to finish the game because you would need the artifcat there. If that was the case I would feel exactly like I felt in Origins. Summoning sciences for me was just a part of mage's tower because I was already there, activated the font, got curious and bingo. That's not how it feels in Inquisition. In Inquisition it feels: I need to meet Loghain and go to the fade with Hawke but I'm going to explore Western Approach with no reason at all... just searching for quests to complete the game because I want it... completed =(

Also, killing the ten high dragons could be very integrated into the main quest, it would make dragons feel important.

Last words: I guess the quests are a structural problem where you have VERY FEW quests in the way of the main quest. In the end I guess the problem was freedom... it sounded like that when I read my post, well, it works in Skyrim, didn't quite work for me in Inquisition.

[atlantico]

Great post Raoni Luna, I'm out of likes, for the day. So: Like!

 

(to atlantico) Eh, if you want you can always just ignore the other players and go on your merry way alone without participating in group activities. Each class-specific storyline-related quest is soloable. Outside of that, you just need to ignore the Heroic + missions.

 

Yeah I suppose, but I've got a policy: no MMOs, ever again. Thanks WoW.

[luism]

I haven't played orgins in over a month (Planning on playing it soon) but I don't recall ever having to interact with a fetch quest that was as outrageous as what was put into Inquisition. Care you explain why I must collect a certain amount of materials for these so-called geological surveys? What benefit could it give to my growing armies? Sure it gives me 100 influence points plus 1 power point... BIG DEAL! How can collecting these materials actually benefit me at defeating Corypheus? In fact it's doing the complete opposite considering the fact that these very same materials help me to craft my and my companions armor and weapons. WTF would I waste it on these ridiculous fetch quests?

 
You know I would actually accept fetch quest if it actually benefit my armies. Say if I wanted to upgrade my soldiers armor. I would have to go out and collect as many ingredients as I can to start the upgrade.

 
Doing these ridiculous fetch quests does not paint a picture of what Inquisition is all about as theirs no consequences of action if you choose not to do them or accept and complete the quest.

In the korcari wilds we meet morrigan, we meet flemeth who has been holding the treaties. It's not an MMO zone where you collect 10 dark spawn bloods then return to your trainer with a big arrow over his head. It's all tied into the plot and beautifully done.

[robertthebard]

I haven't played orgins in over a month (Planning on playing it soon) but I don't recall ever having to interact with a fetch quest that was as outrageous as what was put into Inquisition. Care you explain why I must collect a certain amount of materials for these so-called geological surveys? What benefit could it give to my growing armies? Sure it gives me 100 influence points plus 1 power point... BIG DEAL! How can collecting these materials actually benefit me at defeating Corypheus? In fact it's doing the complete opposite considering the fact that these very same materials help me to craft my and my companions armor and weapons. WTF would I waste it on these ridiculous fetch quests?

Why did you? You know, I did the ones that gave my troops tents, or blankets or warm clothes, and skipped the rest of them. I didn't need the power, or the influence, so why did you do them? What these had to do with fetching ram meat or blankets for the people at the crossroads, the quests I actually commented on, I have no idea, but whatever you have to do, I guess.
 

You know I would actually accept fetch quest if it actually benefit my armies. Say if I wanted to upgrade my soldiers armor. I would have to go out and collect as many ingredients as I can to start the upgrade.
 
Doing these ridiculous fetch quests does not paint a picture of what Inquisition is all about as theirs no consequences of action if you choose not to do them or accept and complete the quest.

You're absolutely correct, just like any other side quest in any other game you've ever played, and any other game that I've ever played, they make absolutely no difference, until, that is, someone wants to point at a developer and scream "You suck" at the top of their lungs.

[Jeffry]

You're absolutely correct, just like any other side quest in any other game you've ever played, and any other game that I've ever played, they make absolutely no difference, until, that is, someone wants to point at a developer and scream "You suck" at the top of their lungs.

 

Well that is not entirely correct and we don't even have to look far for such quests. Just look at Awakening and the side quests for upgrading the Keep's fortifications or your soldiers' armor. Both of these things were completely optional, both of them were easy quests (go there and find granite / ore deposit), both of them made visible differences once finished and there could be some dire consequences for not finishing them. And we are talking about Awakening here, that short buggy rushed unbalanced mess.

 

And then you have Mass Effect 2 and upgrading Normandy. Again, not needed for winning the game and it was required of you to use the boring scanning interface and mine some more minerals. And again, there were consequences when you didn't upgrade the various Normandy's systems.

 

Now I am not sure about this and the wiki (nor any other place I looked) wasn't either the last time I checked, but in DAO you had those allied crates in your camp. It was rumored that when you put some unspecified amount of materials in them, your allied forces had better equipment during the assault on Denerim (or at least should have, but it was cut out of the game). But as far as I know nobody knows that for sure, I am just mentioning it, feel free to disregard this point completely.

[Raoni Luna]

The resources system is completely absurd. Hawke a no-one had people to gather the resources from the sources he found why the hell the Inquisitor doesn't? Picking resources is a huge mistake. Just make a time machine go back in time and switch DAI and DA2 resources style. Hawke fits the role of picking respawning resources SO MUCH BETTER!

 

(Side note: I agree with the person who started a topic saying that Hawke was the Inquisitor at some point, it makes total sense, DA2 would be the origin story for Hawke, everything fits, I would totally buy a DAI:Hawke Version, would be AMAZING *o*)

[Lord Raijin]

How are those fetch quests?

Those are main story quests to find major characters, supplemented with cut scenes, battles, hard decisions and genuine effects on the world and the characters and even future games.

A fetch quest inquisition is an old dude who thinks it's unsafe to walk to his wife's grave and wanted the head of the freaking inquisition to go lay flowers there. Or worse, a discarded piece of paper asking you to bring ashes to a temple thing in the emerald groves, and when you get there you get "quest complete" and 2 power. No dialogue, no interaction, definitely no effect on the world, the story, or even your character. Some for finding 48 copies of Varrick's book.

By your definition the best written quests in all of dragon age are exactly the same and just as much fun as finding 48 copies of Varrick's book for a reward of zero dialogue and 2 power.

Most games, even if you're the king of an empire, some guy will ask you to go deliver a letter or chop down a tree. Origins made fun of that, realized that players had a bigger purpose, and though there were a few small ones, they were forgivable because they were lodged in a massive narrative that was cinematic, personal, and affected the world around it. Inquisition has 100s of these, and half of them don't even include a word of dialogue.

Did you enjoy collecting 100+ shards? If so, an MMO might be right up your alley, we'd rather have story and big decisions, cut scenes and character dialogue... you know, a bioware game.

 

Can't explain any better then what you just wrote. Good job and well done.

[Lord Raijin]

In the korcari wilds we meet morrigan, we meet flemeth who has been holding the treaties. It's not an MMO zone where you collect 10 dark spawn bloods then return to your trainer with a big arrow over his head. It's all tied into the plot and beautifully done.

 

I believe we had to collect 4  vitals of Darkspawn blood, and it was part of the main ingredient for the joining ritual. It's part of the story. I don't consider it as a fetch quest.

[Lord Raijin]

Why did you? You know, I did the ones that gave my troops tents, or blankets or warm clothes, and skipped the rest of them. I didn't need the power, or the influence, so why did you do them? What these had to do with fetching ram meat or blankets for the people at the crossroads, the quests I actually commented on, I have no idea, but whatever you have to do, I guess.
 

You're absolutely correct, just like any other side quest in any other game you've ever played, and any other game that I've ever played, they make absolutely no difference, until, that is, someone wants to point at a developer and scream "You suck" at the top of their lungs.

 

Why did I? Because I'm unable to choose to skip on over to the next one. I had to do it, and then get a next one once it's completed.

[Zinho73]

How are those fetch quests?

Those are main story quests to find major characters, supplemented with cut scenes, battles, hard decisions and genuine effects on the world and the characters and even future games.

A fetch quest inquisition is an old dude who thinks it's unsafe to walk to his wife's grave and wanted the head of the freaking inquisition to go lay flowers there. Or worse, a discarded piece of paper asking you to bring ashes to a temple thing in the emerald groves, and when you get there you get "quest complete" and 2 power. No dialogue, no interaction, definitely no effect on the world, the story, or even your character. Some for finding 48 copies of Varrick's book.

By your definition the best written quests in all of dragon age are exactly the same and just as much fun as finding 48 copies of Varrick's book for a reward of zero dialogue and 2 power.

Most games, even if you're the king of an empire, some guy will ask you to go deliver a letter or chop down a tree. Origins made fun of that, realized that players had a bigger purpose, and though there were a few small ones, they were forgivable because they were lodged in a massive narrative that was cinematic, personal, and affected the world around it. Inquisition has 100s of these, and half of them don't even include a word of dialogue.

Did you enjoy collecting 100+ shards? If so, an MMO might be right up your alley, we'd rather have story and big decisions, cut scenes and character dialogue... you know, a bioware game.

You said so many right things that I expect you to be arrested at any moment now. Less quests with more meaning to them would certainly be better.

 

As someone else said: the other things your guys were doing at the wartable seemed to have much more impact and much more fitting for the Inquisitor: assassinations, arranging marriages, protecting key people, exploring places in search of powerful artifacts.

 

Collecting flowers and minerals makes no roleplaying sense whatsoever.

[Jeffry]

(Side note: I agree with the person who started a topic saying that Hawke was the Inquisitor at some point, it makes total sense, DA2 would be the origin story for Hawke, everything fits, I would totally buy a DAI:Hawke Version, would be AMAZING *o*)

 

Holy hell, that would be excellent. And yes, I believe it was Cassandra telling either me or Varric, that they wanted Hawke to lead the Inquisition and Varric lied about where Hawke was.. While I kinda liked my human noble Inquisitor, someone we guided for an entire previous game from a simple villager to greatness would fit here much better. The Inquisitor rose to power too quickly for my taste. From the very beginning of the game I was regarded as a savior and basically 2nd Andraste and very soon I became the single most powerful person in the world of Thedas. While I enjoyed being the most powerful person in Thedas, it didn't felt quite right, it felt sort of unbelievable not in the good way (having hard time describing my feelings, but I hope you get what I mean). But if Hawke was the main character instead, everything would feel more natural