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Hate for a misunderstood hero


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#251
Hazegurl

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Idk how mentioning Orlais being corrupt is somehow a defense of Blackwall. That's like saying every criminal should go free because their country is corrupt.

 

Lawyer: "Your honor, my client killed some kids but he felt really bad while evading the law, and those people were rich so ya know, screw them because they were corrupt...just like (insert country here) is corrupt!"

 

Anyway, if freeing Blackwall fits with your playstyle, cool. If you freed him cause you liked him and romanced him, great for you. But not every player has to feel sympathy for him, liked him during their pt, nor was gentle with every person they judged. 

 

I made Erimond Tranquil, far more satisfying than killing him, watching him get dragged away crying was a bonus.

 

Executed Mistress Poulin, handed the Mayor to Fereldan for judgement, Had Samson researched by Dagna(I don't give two craps about redeeming him), Alexius is magical researcher only because he developed time magic and my IQ wanted to get in Dorian's pants, and handed Denim to the Temps knowing they would kill him. Sucks to be Blackwall that he didn't get on my good side.


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#252
Addai

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Idk how mentioning Orlais being corrupt is somehow a defense of Blackwall. That's like saying every criminal should go free because their country is corrupt.

When I talked about it, I did qualify that it didn't excuse his actions, but it provides needed context. Blackwall was a middleman in the Game. If you're going to go around dispensing justice over it, you'd better start at Halamshiral, and good luck with the army of untrained peasants, child conscripts and Chantry sisters that are left to you after you've run through the list.
 
Anyway, I give him to the Wardens. The most fitting end IMO is that the lie becomes the truth and he can live the life of self-sacrifice he desires without illusions or pretexts.
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#253
Teddie Sage

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I always free him and keep him as his own man, to redeem for himself as Thom Rainier. I like how he chose to keep "Blackwall" as a title however, to remind him of the good man that saved him.


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#254
Hanako Ikezawa

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I always free him and keep him as his own man, to redeem for himself as Thom Rainier. I like how he chose to keep "Blackwall" as a title however, to remind him of the good man that saved him.

The player should have been given the option to not call him it. But all dialogue we have about Rainier post-judgement is Pro-Rainier.   -_-



#255
Steelcan

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Hand him to the Wardens,he can still be useful,and clearly according to Thedas serving in the Wardens is an acceptable punishment

#256
Teddie Sage

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The player should have been given the option to not call him it. But all dialogue we have about Rainier post-judgement is Pro-Rainier.   -_-

Meh, I see your point, but personally I feel like the title Blackwall sounds nice. I do like Thom Rainier as a name though... 



#257
Hanako Ikezawa

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Meh, I see your point, but personally I feel like the title Blackwall sounds nice. I do like Thom Rainier as a name though... 

That's one reason I choose the "Put Rainier under your custody" option. If we have to call him Blackwall anyway, may as well give a reason for it.

But yeah, the example I always think of where no matter what we are Pro-Rainier is the banter between The Iron Bull and Cassandra about it. The Iron Bull wants to know when Cassandra plans to let Rainier off the hook and Cassandra expresses no intention to. The Inquisitor can ignore the banter but if you choose to get involved all three responses are Pro-Rainier. So you either have to shut up or support the guy, which isn't a balanced set of options for the players. 



#258
Hazegurl

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When I talked about it, I did qualify that it didn't excuse his actions, but it provides needed context. Blackwall was a middleman in the Game. If you're going to go around dispensing justice over it, you'd better start at Halamshiral, and good luck with the army of untrained peasants, child conscripts and Chantry sisters that are left to you after you've run through the list.
 
Anyway, I give him to the Wardens. The most fitting end IMO is that the lie becomes the truth and he can live the life of self-sacrifice he desires without illusions or pretexts.

Once again, that's like saying punish the entire government of a country for being corrupt or let this one guy go free to be fair. Life isn't about fairness.  A guy can turn to stealing because creditors siphoned his bank account. It makes no sense to walk into a court room and say. "If you want to punish this thief, you might as well punish the multi-million dollar company who took his money, and punish the workers who work for them, etc. The argument becomes ridiculous fairly quickly.

 

The truth is that the people who used Blackwall have more protection than Blackwall himself. Blackwall is a nobody and nobody's in the game get killed. IMO, Blackwall's mistake (as far as dealing with my IQ was concerned) is that he didn't lay low and mind his own business, and he made the Inquisition look like fools by offering his fake treaties. He took the lie too far AND didn't get on my good side. That equals Blackwall either getting hung to make a bunch of nobles happy or him being my personal foot stool.

 

Overall, I don't care about Blackwall's redemption or happiness.



#259
Knight of Dane

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Sigh. And that guy was supposed to be our core romance interest. Still makes me laugh hysterically.

 

He was?



#260
Addai

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Once again, that's like saying punish the entire government of a country for being corrupt or let this one guy go free to be fair. Life isn't about fairness.  A guy can turn to stealing because creditors siphoned his bank account. It makes no sense to walk into a court room and say. "If you want to punish this thief, you might as well punish the multi-million dollar company who took his money, and punish the workers who work for them, etc. The argument becomes ridiculous fairly quickly.
 
The truth is that the people who used Blackwall have more protection than Blackwall himself. Blackwall is a nobody and nobody's in the game get killed. IMO, Blackwall's mistake (as far as dealing with my IQ was concerned) is that he didn't lay low and mind his own business, and he made the Inquisition look like fools by offering his fake treaties. He took the lie too far AND didn't get on my good side. That equals Blackwall either getting hung to make a bunch of nobles happy or him being my personal foot stool.
 
Overall, I don't care about Blackwall's redemption or happiness.

Courts do consider mitigating circumstances. Very rarely in these discussions, however, do I see the "law and order" types give a realistic picture of the climate in Orlais in general and during the civil war in particular.

If you really care about looking foolish, you're in the wrong job. I don't feel at all bad about using the treaties. Those pansies should be offering that help without being compelled. The Breach is just as or more threatening to Thedas than a Blight. If they can't see that, well, tough. I don't care about their redemption or happiness.
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#261
Hanako Ikezawa

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He was?

He was originally the love interest for straight females. It went: 

 

Straight Male: Rainier

Pan Male: The Iron Bull

Gay Male: Dorian

Straight Female: Cassandra

Bi Female: Josephine

Gay Female: Sera



#262
Ryzaki

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He was?

\

Yep. Still smh at that. Thank you for year extension and Cullen because smh forever.


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#263
Ryriena

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Basically, I was going to be forced with a charcter that's into BDSM if I was playing straight female or Blackwall, which none of my charcters are into BDSM or being a Lesbian. Yippe

#264
Ryzaki

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Courts do consider mitigating circumstances. Very rarely in these discussions, however, do I see the "law and order" types give a realistic picture of the climate in Orlais in general and during the civil war in particular.

If you really care about looking foolish, you're in the wrong job. I don't feel at all bad about using the treaties. Those pansies should be offering that help without being compelled. The Breach is just as or more threatening to Thedas than a Blight. If they can't see that, well, tough. I don't care about their redemption or happiness.

 

Halamshiral is all about not looking foolish to get your job done so... :whistle:

 

That said we do agree on the latter just mine is more aimed at Blackwall while yours at those you conscripted illegally.

 

 

Basically, I was going to be forced with a charcter that's into BDSM if I was playing straight female or Blackwall, which none of my charcters are into BDSM or being a Lesbian. Yippe

 

Yeah it's very odd. Thankfully it didn't play out that way.
 


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#265
Ryriena

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\
Yep. Still smh at that. Thank you for year extension and Cullen because smh forever.

This because that made not have to suck it up and change my charcters persona to fit said characters, and this is someone who like Sloas

#266
ComedicSociopathy

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It's amazing how you can write so much, and yet address my points so little. Aside from the fallacies involved with demanding fiat justitia ruat caelum lest your justice system be meaningless, there's not much you actually raised here about whether Blackwall submitting to the justice system is justice or compatible with his own view of atonement.

 

Allowing himself to executed was an alternative to his better option being recruited into the Wardens. Blackwall may have been willing to die and would have if it meant saving his former comrade, but since that person was saved and the Inquisition was able to send him to the Wardens then Blackwall was able to receive a form of justice and atonement that he most obviously preferred then execution. A later point of yours talks about how our proprieties are obviously not straight if we let Blackwall live, that were playing character favoritism which can be associated with blatant nepotism. First off, many people in this thread have said why this is not the case, with logical reasons as to why they believe letting Blackwall live is a pragmatic, necessary action. Second, your coming at a lot of people with an accusatory moral high ground that infers that no matter the circumstances your PC will not allow personal entanglements to determine how you judge people. Let's just assume for a second that objectivity is actually a genuine thing that exists and that no small part of you has any sympathy or bias for any character you've meet in the DA universe. Are you telling me that;

 

When Sten tells he murdered children that you recruit him. Content be damned. 

When Leliana tells you she was a Orlesian bard that you accused her for prior acts of espionage and assassination and kick her out of the party. 

When Morrigan tells you that she was part of culpable murder and the flat murder of templars that you didn't kick her out as well.

When Shale a creature with no legal standing tell you she gleefully killed a man that you didn't kick her stony ass to the curve.

That Merrill, Anders and Bethany were given to the legal authority for handling the mages, the templars.

What about Isabela, the pirate, Fenris the runaway slave, Sera the thief, Cole the mage murderer and demon, Iron Bull the spy.

 

You're telling that if the games ever gave you the opportunity to make this characters face justice for their crimes you'd treat with the same level of prejudice that the justice system of Thedas as written calls for? Archdemon slaying, Kirwall saving, Corypheus defeating needs be damned. 

 

If so, then you my friend are committed to your legal standards. 


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#267
Korva

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Most people just get uncomfortable if you raise that 'being nice to friends' are frequently more important than 'justice' whenever the two come into conflict. How many people considered their Shepards paragons of lawful morality to the utmost possibility in ME, and yet happily committed perjury and a deliberate cover up of war crimes when the immediate beneficiary's name was 'Tali'? How many people have called Aveline the 'lawful' member of the crew in DA2, when she is said to deliberatly commission and often joins Hawke on criminal activity?

 

'Nepotism' is a dirty word, but it's also one that's pretty common with the approach and attitude of Bioware players in Bioware games.

 

This I fully agree with. It's long been an annoyance of mine how hypocritcal both the writing and fan reactions can be, and as I said it's even worse when the "evil" character also does part-time work as comic relief. HK-47 from KotOR is the prime example for this, and he's always been incredibly popular. Black Whirlwind from Jade Empire had various oh-so-funny stories about naked drunken slaughter. Canderous, also from KotOR, wasn't comic relief but the player was clearly invited to admire this hardarse "man's man" and his fiercely wistful pining for his glorious past of warmongering and genocide ... and plenty of fans were crying for a "romance" with this guy. Viconia and Edwin from Baldur's Gate were also very popular, and people tied themselves into knots to explain why the good-aligned characters should totally put up with these two and everything they say and do, or else said good-aligned characters were the true evil.

 

This sort of double standard doesn't even have to involve a body count. "Snark", sarcasm, p*ssing contempt all over other people and their beliefs, even physical assault are "fun" ... when it's aimed at NPCs, especially the ever-so-unlikeable authority figures. Thus, the popularity of incredibly disruptive assbags like Morrigan in Origins as well as sarcastic Hawkes and renegade interrupts. But the moment an NPC like Chancellor Roderick dares to not worshipfully lick the protagonist's feet clean, they become public enemy #1 and totally deserve to be murder knifed.

 

And of course, by far the worst criminal in our party in any Bioware game ever wasn't even a companion, but a protagonist: Revan. Yet so many players loved to picture their Revan as nothing but a misunderstood hero all the way, the only one smart and brave and powerful and just-so-damn Special™ enough to do what had to be done, and who was then unjustly and horribly mistreated at the hands of the Republic.

 

If Blackwall wasn't so repentant but embraced his crimes, if his actions had been given the same "kewl" or "LOL" slant as HK's meatbag murder and Canderous' waxing poetic about genocide, I think many players would have no problem with him at all.


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#268
Ryzaki

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This because that would make not have to suck it up and change my charcters persona.

 

Well I just would've made me character's subs. That I can adapt to. Especially since it's restricted to the bedroom.

 

Forgiving Blackwall for constant lies and making her look a fool in front of her organization? Not so much.



#269
Addai

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Halamshiral is about finding an assassin, kicking ass and getting everyone on the right page. By the time Rainier is exposed, you've got the emperor/ empress in your pocket and have bigger things to worry about than appeasing a bunch of selfish whining nobles who ought to be concerned about the hole in the sky and not the letter of the law. They can try their appeals with Corypheus if he wins. Maybe he'll be more sympathetic.
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#270
Ryzaki

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Halamshiral is about finding an assassin, kicking ass and getting everyone on the right page. By the time Rainier is exposed, you've got the emperor/ empress in your pocket and have bigger things to worry about than appeasing a bunch of selfish whining nobles who ought to be concerned about the hole in the sky and not the letter of the law. They can try their appeals with Corypheus if he wins. Maybe he'll be more sympathetic.

 

Nope. It's just as much about having your organization being taken seriously by the Orlesian court as well. Get your approval to zero and see what happens and look at the endings you get for having low approval with the rulers. You can't even call out Florianne without death if your court approval isn't high enough.

 

Also it's funny how you bringup the selfish whining nobles when the likely people who were conscripted were commoner soldiers.



#271
sch1986

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I agree whole heartedly. He hates himself for what he's done. I think it was phrased quite nicely in the game: more good comes from his life as blackwall then does his death as thom rainier.

I was surprised at the amount of hate he got too. Worst I can bring myself to do to him is make a warden. I could never leave him to his fate in Val Royeaux. I haven't tried it for myself- but I think his character arc would probably add a lot of depth to his romance. But I also feel the romance factor would cheapen his redemption. Like: inquisitor only spared him because they are lovers." But this isn't the reality at all. He's earned his forgiveness and I have faith he would continue to do so.
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#272
jellobell

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He was?

Yep. Bull and Blackwall were going to be the two romances available to straight women Inquisitors.

 

I would've been alright with Bull (since I love the character), and I probably still wouldn't have done Blackwall. The forced sub thing gets on my nerves, though. I'm very glad that Bioware decided to include those two other romances. Solas especially. 


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#273
Ryriena

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Well I just would've made me character's subs. That I can adapt to. Especially since it's restricted to the bedroom.

Forgiving Blackwall for constant lies and making her look a fool in front of her organization? Not so much.

Most of my charcters aren't into that short of thing and I shouldn't have to change that to fit someone sense of a healthy relationship.

#274
Addai

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Nope. It's just as much about having your organization being taken seriously by the Orlesian court as well. Get your approval to zero and see what happens and look at the endings you get for having low approval with the rulers. You can't even call out Florianne without death if your court approval isn't high enough.
 
Also it's funny how you bringup the selfish whining nobles when the likely people who were conscripted were commoner soldiers.

I give them their show and get them back on track. What Orlais does after that is up to them, and as I said, at the point Rainier is exposed the empress or emperor owes you big. I don't mind collecting since I never owed them anything.

And I don't mind conscripting, either. I do that every chance I get at the war table. These people haven't seen what's coming, but you have. Mincing around kissing cheeks should be left to people who haven't.

#275
Ryzaki

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I give them their show and get them back on track. What Orlais does after that is up to them, and as I said, at the point Rainier is exposed the empress or emperor owes you big. I never owed them anything.

And I don't mind conscripting, either. I do that every chance I get at the war table. These people haven't seen what's coming, but you have. Mincing around kissing cheeks should be left to people who haven't.

 

And they repay that debt by giving you forces for the Arbor wilds.

 

And that's fair. Just like some people don't mind leaving Blackwall to finally swing for his crimes because they don't have time to be wasting resources springing him out.


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