1018 réponses à ce sujet

[Bugsie]

There is the bug, where you don't get all the dialogue to ask him about his real past, after bringing him back. But I agree with Bugsie, it didn't feel different to the other companions. I doubt they'd have made a second love interest option where the LI left and didn't come back. Two in one game is quite a bit.

 

I liked the cutscene with him, once the griffon was finished carving. That says to me they intended for him to be there, since he'd been carving it the whole game, and then you have the scene with it finished.

I'm thinking a lot of missing banter and bugs that prevent dialogues appearing makes it harder to like or ascertain the character, also if you weren't one to get the banter bug, not taking them out to interact with others also limits insight into the character. I'm working on taking IB and Vivienne out more because so far they have been completely underwhelming for me (or it could be just the 2 characters I had the greatest expectation have given me the biggest let downs so far.)

 

I've drastically changed my tune over the past 2 years on Loghain and Zevran.  Part of that is I'm now actually paying more attention to DA characters I previously dismissed, loathed or ignored altogether.  

[ThreeF]

I almost  always take the middle, more sarcastic dialogue options with Blackwall. He laughs, usually approves, and realizes he can't put you up on a pedestal.  You actually see a bit of his sense of humor with those. If you take the top ones, he seems more serious. I've noticed if you take the bottom dialogue options in those early conversations he really dislikes it. If someone was rp-ing a character that took those choices a lot, I could see how they would never get along.

Which middle option? The middle option is the one where you tell him that he takes it too seriously which earns you a disapproval  from him and a long angry speech about how so many people depend on IQ  and how IQ should be the guide. I can never pick the first option in that dialogue it's too pompous for me and gives him the opportunity for more self-righteous speech.

 

 

It makes it interesting to role play different types of characters in this game. By taking different dialogue choices, you see completely different sides to all the companions in this game.

I don't dislike him because of the dialogue choices, though. I don't even dislike him per se, I dislike the LG traits his personality embodies.

 

 

There is the bug, where you don't get all the dialogue to ask him about his real past, after bringing him back.

I don't remember if this was it. I remember running by everyone to check if they have a specific dialogue reaction to an event and everyone had one except for him. I think it was before the final battle, but i'm not sure.

[Bugsie]

@ ThreeF - I'm not really up with/familiar with DnD terms, I hear them bandied about but never really sat down to understand what they refer to - can you tell us about which traits inparticular?

 

In relation to dialogue - he has some about who he was as Thom Rainier, whether he was ever married and what he did in the army.  Apparently a lot of people never got that dialogue option post revelation.

[Vita Brevis]

I had no problems with forgiving Blackwall/Rainier, considering all the other people we gave second chances to along the way.
UNTIL!
...Until he started back talking me during the judging - saying I was corrupt? Pfffft.
Our diplomats busted their butts getting him out of jail using favors garnered at Halamshiral. No deaths, no lies, no sneaky business.
How disrespectful. Bleh. He's lucky I didn't spitefully force him to continue his lie.

This. What the hell was he thinking accusing the Inq I still don't understand. I get it he wanted to die, but still this is not how you're suppose to talk with someone who's gonna decide your fate.

 

I think they did a great job with him, like him or hate him, understand or condemn, he makes people react.   

Odd. I have no strong feelings one way or another. I just don't care about his story arc at all. It was obvious to me that he's lying to the Inq so I wasn't even shocked or anything by his "revelation". And what a revelation... killed someone for money, run away and that's pretty much it. If it wasn't for his (rare) somewhat lively-funny banters with Sera and Solas, I might even say he's just plain boring.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Really? I remember you coming every single day to pester us in the Blackwall fan thread accusing us of being pro-animal abuse and such, and quoting our sentences to accuse us of romancing a murderer of children. 

 

When I was young people met in real rooms and if disturbers entered the room we could kick them out in no time. Ah good old times...

Never accused any poster of anything like that. If you are going to try to discredit me, at least be honest about it. 

[AtreiyaN7]

This. What the hell was he thinking accusing the Inq I still don't understand. I get it he wanted to die, but still this is not how you're suppose to talk with someone who's gonna decide your fate.

 

Don't know how many times I've now pointed out that Blackwall is basically angry at himself/filled with (more) self-loathing for having put you - the Inquisitor - in a position where you had to do something that others might view as corrupt when he was trying to avoid putting you in that kind of situation in the first place by heading to Val Royeaux on his own to meet his fate.

 

It might come across as him blaming you or him being self-righteous, but he's just really upset and p---ed off at himself. Look, I'm not exactly a natural at reading people's emotions, but even I - someone who can be just a bit emotionally tone-deaf - managed to figure out why he said that and where it was coming from.

[ThreeF]

In relation to dialogue - he has some about who he was as Thom Rainier, whether he was ever married and what he did in the army.  Apparently a lot of people never got that dialogue option post revelation.

 

I don't think I got that dialogue either, post revelation, it kind of felt that he was not suppose to be there, a ghost.

 

 

@ ThreeF - I'm not really up with/familiar with DnD terms, I hear them bandied about but never really sat down to understand what they refer to - can you tell us about which traits inparticular?

 

The trait of being one-dimensional self-righteous idealist on steroids. I find it to be creepy.

 

DnD divides personalities into Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, Lawful  Neutral, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Neutral, True Neutral (I hope I didn't forget any). I think the names are self-explanatory? Lawful Good is typically a paladin. This is perhaps something very helpful for a DnD game, because it sets parameters and rules, but it often results in very one dimensional characters in games. Something I never liked.

 

Now like I said the way I see it Blackwall is not the the LG stereotype, but a lampshaded and subverted LG trope, which is great (more than great actually), it just doesn't mean that I find these particular characteristics endearing. I specifically dislike how he has made up his mind about what IQ should do and think, I understand why he does it, the idea behind it, I even feel a bit sad about him being like that, but I still find it creepy.  Others might not see it  like this.
 

[Ynqve]

This. What the hell was he thinking accusing the Inq I still don't understand. I get it he wanted to die, but still this is not how you're suppose to talk with someone who's gonna decide your fate.

 

 

That's because he wants you to sentence him to death. He's still convinced that he has to die to redeem himself.

[Vita Brevis]

Don't know how many times I've now pointed out that Blackwall is basically angry at himself/filled with (more) self-loathing for having put you - the Inquisitor - in a position where you had to do something that others might view as corrupt when he was trying to avoid putting you in that kind of situation in the first place by heading to Val Royeaux on his own to meet his fate.

 

It might come across as him blaming you or him being self-righteous, but he's just really upset and p---ed off at himself. Look, I'm not exactly a natural at reading people's emotions, but even I - someone who can be just a bit emotionally tone-deaf - managed to figure out why he said that and where it was coming from.

I know why he said it, but the point is, he shouldn't. Still, usually people would apologize at least. Almost everyone do that when they feel like they gone too far and the Inq didn't deserve it (like Leliana, Dorian, Cass or Solas, that's the first that came to mind). Guess next time I'll just leave him there it's not like he even matters.

 

That's because he wants you to sentence him to death. He's still convinced that he has to die to redeem himself.

Yeah, you reminded me actually about what I don't like about the judgement system, and his case for that matter. That we hardly can even explain why we let someone live and why it's usually more of a punishment. 

[Sabreenei]

Which middle option? The middle option is the one where you tell him that he takes it too seriously which earns you a disapproval  from him and a long angry speech about how so many people depend on IQ  and who I should be the guide. I can never pick the first option in that dialogue it's too pompous for me.

 

 

I don't dislike him because of the dialogue choices, though. I don't even dislike him per se, I dislike the LG traits his personality embodies.

 

 

I don't remember if this was it. I remember running by everyone to check if they have a specific dialogue reaction to an event and everyone had one except for him. I think it was before the final battle, but i'm not sure.

 

Oh, you said Skyhold. I'm sorry, my mind went back to Haven, when you first talk to him. He tries to put you on a pedestal during the first Haven conversations, but laughs at the middle one. The conversation on the battlements never struck me as him trying to put the inquisitor on a pedestal. If anything, it seems that he suddenly sees the inquisition in a new light, and wants to make sure the inquisitor is taking leading seriously, most likely since he himself made what he felt to be a horrific mistake as a leader. 

 

I'm guessing you are talking about when he says, "Let him come. I swear I'll take the twisted bastard down, even if I have to die to do it."

And your reply choices are:

1. Thank you

2. You're taking this hard

3. You're no good to me dead

4. I'm not losing you (flirt option)

 

If you take 1, you tell him you're grateful for his support, and he approves.

 

If you take 2, You're taking this personally, then he slightly disapproves and says you should take it personally also. I find that in character, since he now takes the lives of soldiers very seriously.

 

If you take 3, "Watch that this enthusiasm of yours doesn't get you killed." Then he slightly disapproves, and says he wouldn't be the first to die in your service. Very in character to me again.

 

I usually take the flirt option, say thank you, or tell him not to take it personally. And then I don't take it personally, when he gives me a lecture

 

At the end of the game, I can't remember who had cutscenes when, but some time before the final battle you have a cutscene with Blackwall when you talk about the final battle, and finishes building the griffon. Unless that's a romanced only scene!

[CredulousAlloy]

You know what? I don't even mind that people dislike him. I mean, it's hard to hear so much criticism of a character you really like, but people have very legitimate reasons for feeling the way they do, just as I and others have very legitimate reasons for feeling otherwise. I'm used to liking unpopular characters (for example, one of my favourite ASOIAF characters is Catelyn Stark, who's flat-out loathed by most of the fandom), and I'm absolutely fine with dissenting opinions. We all interpret things differently. It's when our own morality and values get called into question for supporting a problematic character that we start to get annoyed (and I'm not accusing anyone in this thread personally of doing this, just going by personal experience).

Also, people fabricating things just to justify their dislike. I cringe whenever I see someone unironically bring up the dog incident as some kind of damning indictment of the young Thom Rainier (a frightened kid who wasn't even one of the perpetrators), or calling him a creep/stalker/potential rapist for *gasp* having sexual thoughts about a woman he finds attractive. He's done plenty of things actually deserving of hatred; you don't need to go to such lengths to smear him even more.
 

Don't know how many times I've now pointed out that Blackwall is basically angry at himself/filled with (more) self-loathing for having put you - the Inquisitor - in a position where you had to do something that others might view as corrupt when he was trying to avoid putting you in that kind of situation in the first place by heading to Val Royeaux on his own to meet his fate.
 
It might come across as him blaming you or him being self-righteous, but he's just really upset and p---ed off at himself. Look, I'm not exactly a natural at reading people's emotions, but even I - someone who can be just a bit emotionally tone-deaf - managed to figure out why he said that and where it was coming from.

This.
If you romanced him, he hates himself for having put the Inquisitor in a position where her integrity and reputation might be compromised. And for non-romanced Inquisitors, it's the same kind of reaction, as he's clearly grown to like and respect you a great deal by that point (after all, you need high approval with him to even trigger his quest). In both cases, he's lashing out in anger, but he's primarily angry with himself because of the impact his actions will have on the Inquisition. And yes, you might say "Well in that case, he shouldn't have gotten involved with the Inquisition in the first place", but, as I said earlier, he's a flawed character trying to do the right thing and making a complete mess of it.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah as I already said not buying the hating himself for putting her in a position with her integrity and rep might be compromised because he's the one who decides to open his mouth about their relationship in open court.

 

That scene is just so...ugh.

[Vita Brevis]

Yeah as I already said not buying the hating himself for putting her in a position with her integrity and rep might be compromised because he's the one who decides to open his mouth about their relationship in open court.

 

That scene is just so...ugh.

What he says exactly?

[Ryzaki]

What he says exactly?

 

He pretty much brings up your relationship and says while he lied about everything else his feelings for you were real which would be romantic well enough if he wasn't saying it in the middle of judgement. Especially after running his mouth about your corruption.

 

Then your choices are pretty much to tell him to stay put, you loved him but the lies killed your relationship or two ways to take him back which result in you kissing him in chains in front of the court. I admit my lip actually curled in disgust.

[Vita Brevis]

о_о

That's actually very f-ed up...

[Biotic Flash Kick]

Hero, my ass. He killed children. There is no recompense for that, in my eyes. He lied to us, to everyone, and couldn't even have the decency to tell us the truth until we ran him down in Val Royeaux where he was about to die.

k

sten and anders have done that

anders on a much bigger scale

 

fenris killed the innocent people who nursed him back from health 

[Vita Brevis]

Well, all three of them are f nuts (and by that I mean really unstable). And Blacwall did it just for coins. And it's not like he actually needed them to survive or get by, he just needed more money.

[ComedicSociopathy]

 

fenris killed the innocent people who nursed him back from health 

 

Oh, I totally forgot about Fenris. Guess he goes on the list as well. 

[CredulousAlloy]

Hey, I have issues with the judgement scene too! For one, my Inquisitor never would've made out with him in front of the entire court while he was still in his chains. The whole "NO WE NEED TO DISCUSS OUR RELATIONSHIP RIGHT NOW" thing is awkward to say the least, and I'd have much preferred for the scene to continue in private once you'd judged him. 

 

^{Having said that, I still kind of love the scene because of the drama.}

[Hanako Ikezawa]

k

sten and anders have done that

anders on a much bigger scale

 

fenris killed the innocent people who nursed him back from health 

I haven't seen anyone excuse them for this. 

[Ryzaki]

k

sten and anders have done that

anders on a much bigger scale

 

fenris killed the innocent people who nursed him back from health 

 

If Blackwall had been ordered to kill the family by his slave owner and was suffering from PTSD I'd be willing to let him slide to.

 

As it is...not so much.

[Ynqve]

Yeah, you reminded me actually about what I don't like about the judgement system, and his case for that matter. That we hardly can even explain why we let someone live and why it's usually more of a punishment. 

 

Agreed, but at least you sort of get that opportunity if you send him to the Wardens. 

[Catwall]

 

 

^{Having said that, I still kind of love the scene because of the drama.}

Yes, me too. Give me that telenovela goodness! It's such a tacky, exhibitionistic gesture that it probably just scandalizes everyone in the main hall. But I bet it makes for a hell of a bard's tale in the years to come.

[Vita Brevis]

Agreed, but at least you sort of get that opportunity if you send him to the Wardens. 

I know. But all things considering... how the Inq could (story-wise) think it will be a great idea to send him there after what we just saw is beyond me. I guess it only works if the Inq allied with the wardens (but I personally never do that, so I don't know what the hell to do with him).

[Biotic Flash Kick]

If Blackwall had been ordered to kill the family by his slave owner and was suffering from PTSD I'd be willing to let him slide to.

 

As it is...not so much.

Slaves obey

the free choose

 

and fenris chose to obey

fenris chose to be a slave again