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[Hanako Ikezawa]

The truth is Tom Rainier never had any real choice.

People always have a choice. 

[Ryzaki]

Too often in life, something happens and we blame other people for us not being happy or satisfied or fulfilled. So the point is, we all have choices, and we make the choice to accept people or situations or to not accept situations.

 

In this life, we have to make many choices. Some are very important choices. Some are not. Many of our choices are between good and evil. The choices we make, however, determine to a large extent our happiness or our unhappiness, because we have to live with the consequences of our choices.

 

Rainer made bad decision after bad decision. Now you can forgive him for that if you want too but he willingly started on that road and kept going.

[Hellion Rex]

 

The truth is Tom Rainier never had any real choice. The whole family dying was unfortunate. He never wanted this. His men carried the order as the nobleman passed it to Rainier - leave no witnesses alive - and as a result, innocents died.

BS. He always had a choice. Let's call a spade a spade. He was not a man forced into doing a damn thing. He knew the risks better than anyone, especially as an Orlesian soldier, and still he chose to to follow orders.

 

The deaths of the family, as well as his soldiers who were later executed, are all on his head due to the choice he made.

[TheLastArchivist]

Just remember it's very difficult to judge his situation if you've never been dragged to a police station against your wishes for a crime you didn't commit, threatened to be thrown to jail and other actions which really make you change your mind about this so-called infinite freedom and endless possibilities most people seem to think our system allows them to have.

 

The man lived a cursed existence, with the noose permanently hanging around his neck. The fact that he chose to tighten it by his own hand says A LOT about his character and honor. People just don't voluntarily walk toward their own deaths.

 

And the fact that the Inquisitor inspired him in such a way so as to abandon all selfish desire to live, regardless of the unfairness of his situation -since the nobleman probably never answered for his crimes - hints at his constant feeling of guilt and his inner desire to be a better person, to live according to people he respects and admires, a.k.a. people like the Inquisitor, who fight to combat those who'd corrupt and destroy the world, making numerous sacrifices along the way. 

 

No dishonest man yields to a higher calling. Tom Rainier yielded to the Inquisitor and what he/she meant: honour, fairness, duty, sacrifice, values he upholds dearly. So dearly he's willing to sacrifice himself rather than harming the Inquisitor's reputation in any way.

[Ryzaki]

My favorite character is a complete asshat. (Dude in my avatar). He is a douche canoe. Does he have reasons to be that way? Yep. But he chose to be that way. I'd be doing his character a disservice by claiming he was buffeted by the winds of fate.

 

He can ultimately become less of a douchebag. (with time and a boat load of energy) that doesn't mean he started off as a nondouchebag or that his choices were the only ones he could've made.

[TheLastArchivist]

People always have a choice. 

No, they don't.

The system doesn't allow for much freedom. 

 

Only if you're above the rest. That is, your father is a judge of the Supreme Court, or if he descends from a long line of presidents, or if he is a multibillionaire CEO of an important company or big bank or any other extremely rare advantageous condition.

 

Try quitting your job any day or dropping out of school/college to see what happens...

[Br3admax]

BS. He always had a choice. Let's call a spade a spade. He was not a man forced into doing a damn thing. He knew the risks better than anyone, especially as an Orlesian soldier, and still he chose to to follow orders.

 

The deaths of the family, as well as his soldiers who were later executed, are all on his head due to the choice he made.

 

Tbh, even that's understandable, he played the Game and lost, what's not is lying about it for years, stealing Grey Warden treaties, exploiting people, and letting others suffer for his crime. The fact that he lives in the woods and forces people to fight bandits doesn't make up for any of that. No one cares about all the lives Meredith saves before going insane. No one cares about all the lives Lambert saved, the changes he wanted. No one cares about all the people Cory took care of. What gives Blackwall the privilege of getting off scot free? The fact that he's sorry? Ask them all, and I'm sure plenty of you will say they're sorry. 

 

No, they don't.

The system doesn't allow for much freedom. 

 

Only if you're above the rest. That is, your father is a judge of the Supreme Court, or if he descends from a long line of presidents, or if he is a multibillionaire CEO of an important company or big bank or any other extremely rare advantageous condition.

 

Try quitting your job any day or dropping out of school/college to see what happens...

 

Blackwall was never obligated to do anything. He did it for money. That's like saying a professional hitman has to kill people because the system.

 

Nope, that's actually not true in the slightest. Pretty sure the closest I am to royalty is as close as literally everyone who lives in America is, and I still haven't been forced to kill a person yet. 

 

"Kill them, or we're cutting off your student loans!" 

[Hellion Rex]

Just remember it's very difficult to judge his situation if you've never been dragged to a police station against your wishes for a crime you didn't commit, threatened to be thrown to jail and other actions which really make you change your mind about this so-called infinite freedom and endless possibilities most people seem to think our system allows them to have.

 

Except that he is responsible and he did commit the crime, so I don't know where in the world you're going with this.

 

 

The man lived a cursed existence, with the noose permanently hanging around his neck. The fact that he chose to tighten it by his own hand says A LOT about his character and honor. People just don't voluntarily walk toward their own deaths.

Yes, he did live a cursed existence, but that was HIS CHOICE. Nobody made him run away and pretend to be someone he's not. He alone made that choice, so anything he suffered is on him and him alone.

 

 

And the fact that the Inquisitor inspired him in such a way so as to abandon all selfish desire to live, regardless of the unfairness of his situation -since the nobleman probably never answered for his crimes - hints at his constant feeling of guilt and his inner desire to be a better person, to live according to people he respects and admires, a.k.a. people like the Inquisitor, who fight to combat those who'd corrupt and destroy the world, making numerous sacrifices along the way.
 

And yet he couldn't bother to own up to his crimes, and tell us the truth before he ran away from us. No, we had to run him down in Val Royeaux because he couldn't be bothered.

 

 

No dishonest man yields to a higher calling.

You're kidding me, right? He followed his "higher calling", both the Wardens and the Inquisition, all while choosing to live a life of lies. And we were never told the truth until he was almost in the hangman's noose.

[Hellion Rex]

No, they don't.

The system doesn't allow for much freedom. 

 

Only if you're above the rest. That is, your father is a judge of the Supreme Court, or if he descends from a long line of presidents, or if he is a multibillionaire CEO of an important company or big bank or any other extremely rare advantageous condition.

 

Try quitting your job any day or dropping out of school/college to see what happens...

Yes, we do. Everyone always has choices, whether they choose to acknowledge them or not. To deny that fact is ridiculous.

[TheLastArchivist]

Tbh, even that's understandable, he played the Game and lost, what's not is lying about it for years, stealing Grey Warden treaties, exploiting people, and letting others suffer for his crime. The fact that he lives in the woods and forces people to fight bandits doesn't make up for any of that. No one cares about all the lives Meredith saves before going insane. No one cares about all the lives Lambert saved, the changes he wanted. No one cares about all the people Cory took care of. What gives Blackwall the privilege of getting off scot free? The fact that he's sorry? Ask them all, and I'm sure plenty of you will say they're sorry. 

 

 

Blackwall was never obligated to do anything. He did it for money. That's like saying a professional hitman has to kill people because the system.

 

Nope, that's actually not true in the slightest. Pretty sure the closest I am to royalty is as close as literally everyone who lives in America is, and I still haven't been forced to kill a person yet. 

 

"Kill them, or we're cutting off your student loans!" 

 

Blackwall would know the nobleman's plan and that information could be used against him (against the nobleman).

 

If another captain had commited the crime, the nobleman would eventually send a hitman to take care of Blackwall "just to be on the safe side".

And why is that?

 

If his crime had been found out and Blackwall were still alive, he could bribe the nobleman any day so as not to tell a political rival of his or an authority about the orders he was given to slay the other nobleman.

 

Some orders, you just follow. Disagreeing to do so may be the last thing you do. In the mafia, it's very common for the top boss to send people to suicidal missions (without the person's knowledge) or other compromising tasks which may result in your permanent exile, early death or other grim fate. 

And if you don't accept, it's taken as a personal insult and they may kill you just for daring to refuse the boss' orders.

 

So back to Blackwall, he had no real choice to refuse the nobleman's request. The guy was going to hire someone to kill his rival anyway. Obedience or an early death. Remember, this is Orlais. If you don't play the Game right, it may cost you your life.

[Br3admax]

Blackwall would know the nobleman's plan and that information could be used against him (against the nobleman)

Say you'll do it, don't, exploit. That's how you play the Game. Hell, that's how you live life today. And unlike today's world, the nobleman would have literally no way of knowing. 

 

 

 

If another captain had commited the crime, the nobleman would eventually send a hitman to take care of Blackwall "just to be on the safe side".

And why is that?

 

If his crime had been found out and Blackwall were still alive, he could bribe the nobleman any day so as not to tell a political rival of his or an authority about the orders he was given to slay the other nobleman.

 

And he wouldn't be able to do that, you know, after Blackwall committed the crime? Because you know, no take backs and pinkie swears. Binding contracts, and all that jazz. If there is no way to win, I'm going to make sure the other team loses. 

 

Some orders, you just follow. Disagreeing to do so may be the last thing you do. In the mafia, it's very common for the top boss to send people to suicidal missions (without the person's knowledge) or other compromising tasks which may result in your permanent exile, early death or other grim fate. 

And if you don't accept, it's taken as a personal insult and they may kill you just for daring to refuse the boss' orders.

And if you do accept them, they just kill you afterwards anyway. Liabilities don't stop being liabilities after they do what you've told them too. They still know too much.

 

So back to Blackwall, he had no real choice to refuse the nobleman's request. The guy was going to hire someone to kill his rival anyway. Obedience or an early death. Remember, this is Orlais. If you don't play the Game right, it may cost you your life. 

And Blackwall didn't play the Game right. It should cost him his life. Whether that means death, serving the Wardens, or in prison, he'll pay his debt to society, just like everyone else. 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Just remember it's very difficult to judge his situation if you've never been dragged to a police station against your wishes for a crime you didn't commit, threatened to be thrown to jail and other actions which really make you change your mind about this so-called infinite freedom and endless possibilities most people seem to think our system allows them to have.

 

Wait. But he did commit the crime. He was paid and he went thru with it, regardless of the collateral damage he hadn't anticipated upon receiving payment.

 

I don't hate Blackwall. I save him and give him to the wardens. Its what he had wanted all along and he's cool with it. If he dies in the joining, consider justice served. If he lives, then he's free to live out the remainder of his life atoning more than he was already, but openly. Either way, he can live with himself now.

 

But don't try to draw some analogies to some obscure "injustice in the system" when the Orlesian system here was actually working perfectly fine. Ranier *did* kill that family and he did it knowingly and with full culpability. He fully deserved the hangman's noose according to the code of law he'd broken b/c he had to pay for his actions somehow. IMO, it would have been justice to allow him to serve that sentence. B/c his secret escapades as a "warden" don't bring back the loved ones lost to his murder.

 

But he was a friend and I owed him and he *was* trying to atone, so I wanted to show some mercy, too. Basically leaving it to fate with the Warden thing is the best middle ground there, imo. The other two freedom options are either letting him off scott-free or making his life kinda hell, neither of which I was ok with.

[Hazegurl]

No, they don't.

The system doesn't allow for much freedom. 

 

Only if you're above the rest. That is, your father is a judge of the Supreme Court, or if he descends from a long line of presidents, or if he is a multibillionaire CEO of an important company or big bank or any other extremely rare advantageous condition.

 

Try quitting your job any day or dropping out of school/college to see what happens...

You still have a choice, the difference is only in the consequences.

 

Quit your job without having another lined up or don't have millions of dollars, you suffer.  But no one is forcing you to keep your job. Not your boss, coworkers, family, no one.  That is your choice because you're afraid to face the consequences of being without it. 

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

I agree, people always have a choice, it may be a difficult one, one that requires a lot of courage, sometimes may lead you to your death, but you always have a choice.

 

That's also the reason why I'm not a fan of the 'I was just following orders' thing. Rainier's men had a choice too, they are all responsible of what happened in the Callier affair, Rainier had the chance to flee and he did it, the others were captured. Later he had the choice to follow the real Blackwall's example and refused to let another man die in his place. That choice required a lot of courage, and I admire him for that.

 

Sometimes the weight of guilt is too heavy and we need to change skin to be able to go on, we need an example to follow, to be inspired by an ideal. His guilt was eating him alive, the recruitment in the wardens made him breath again, his mentor's death took that chance away from him and he decided to take it back.

[RobRam10]

Amazing this thread is still going!

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Amazing this thread is still going!

Shh! Don't jinx it. XD

[Xetykins]

Yeah this is a hot potatoe because he's the only companion in game you could actually judge for his crimes. The rest you could kill with no real public deliberation, so it comes as just a matter of whether you do or don't like the character. Personally, I saw the character behind the beard and gave him his redemption. Gave him to the wardens.

[Rekkampum]

Yeah this is a hot potatoe because he's the only companion in game you could actually judge for his crimes. The rest you could kill with no real public deliberation, so it comes as just a matter of whether you do or don't like the character. Personally, I saw the character behind the beard and gave him his redemption. Gave him to the wardens.

 

I don't think it's that. I'm sure there are plenty of people who find fault with his actions but nonetheless respect him as a character. I thought, for instance, Merrill was naive and irresponsible as hell for screwing around with blood magic, but I still liked how she was written.

[Korva]

... ugh. I didn't know how the judgment plays out when you're in a relationship with him. That is actually seriously f*cked up and totally out of line. What were the writers thinking? I generally dislike "romance" and would never touch him anyway, so it's not like I'll ever encounter the scene personally, but sheesh I'm annnoyed now.

[Abelas Forever!]

When deciding what to do with Blackwall I try to think what my PC would do in that situation. Some PCs might just leave him to jail because rescuing him is not worth all the consequences or that they can't tolerate his actions. Other PCs might rescue him because after all he has been working for you and he has helped to build the inquisition. Others might send him to wardens or make him serve the inquisition because he needs to be punished for his actions. Maybe some PCs will set him free because they see that he has suffered enough and has paid for his mistakes. Anyway I don't see that there is just one right way to handle his situation.

[Abelas Forever!]

... ugh. I didn't know how the judgment plays out when you're in a relationship with him. That is actually seriously f*cked up and totally out of line. What were the writers thinking? I generally dislike "romance" and would never touch him anyway, so it's not like I'll ever encounter the scene personally, but sheesh I'm annnoyed now.

I don't like his romance either. I just can't think any way my inquisitor could take him back in that situation. She could forgive him but never take him back. Sometimes there are romances which you don't like and that's fine. I guess what worries me is that he was the other original LI for females and his romance arc is something I never want to experience and I have never disliked a romance like I dislike this romance.

[Ieldra]

How does the judgment scene play out if you're in a relationship with him? I'm playing his romance right now and I already dread that scene. I actually don't have a problem with taking him back in principle, at least not for what he did until that point, but if he doesn't omit his self-righteous line about the Inquistion being corrupt, taking him back would feel like demeaning myself.

 

Damn the romances in this game. I want Dorian and he's gay. I want Solas and he's only into elves. I can't romance Josephine because I hate the scene in Val Royeaux, my main Inquisitor is not into SM so Bull is out, Cullen's romance is bland and Sera....my main Inquisitor could never romance anyone with that much fear of the unknown. I had hopes for Blackwall, and his past crimes never bothered me that much since he was becoming a so much different man. His self-righteousness, that may turn out to be critical.

[Xetykins]

 
Damn the romances in this game. I want Dorian and he's gay.

I feel ya!

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm just glad that I can differentiate between my own ethics and my character's, and roleplay accordingly.

 

My characters have ethics?

 

I'm surprised. When they're not fanatics or dabbling with sociopathy, they're often a bit too stupid or unthinking to really have a mature structure of morality.

[Bugsie]

Let's call it a laughable facade of ethics that is a poor reflection of real life ones.

 

How does the judgment scene play out if you're in a relationship with him? I'm playing his romance right now and I already dread that scene. I actually don't have a problem with taking him back in principle, at least not for what he did until that point, but if he doesn't omit his self-righteous line about the Inquistion being corrupt, taking him back would feel like demeaning myself.

 

Damn the romances in this game. I want Dorian and he's gay. I want Solas and he's only into elves. I can't romance Josephine because I hate the scene in Val Royeaux, my main Inquisitor is not into SM so Bull is out, Cullen's romance is bland and Sera....my main Inquisitor could never romance anyone with that much fear of the unknown. I had hopes for Blackwall, and his past crimes never bothered me that much since he was becoming a so much different man. His self-righteousness, that may turn out to be critical.

Eh some people like it and treat it as a bit of theatre.  I don't like like it mainly because if you reconcile you end up making out with him in chains.  Yeah I just used my influence to get my boyfriend out of trouble with the law but making out in public is just a step to far!  

 

If you treat the self righteousness as a remnant of youthful arrogance and pride (that needs smacking down - and you can do it in several dialogues) it might not be a sticking point.  As I mentioned earlier, I consider my self to be a self-righteous douche at times, so it didn't worry me.

 

I ended up rolling a dude elf for Dorian and rather glad I did that.  Finally going to roll a Trev but I just can't get her to look right, she's either too much like everyone else's or is a hideous monstrosity of makeup abominations.  What's the scene of Josie's that's in Val Royeaux that you hate?