1018 réponses à ce sujet

[Korva]

Taking the private into the public is the main reason why I dislike Josephine's romance, and that's one of the things for which Blackwall won't get a free pass. Then he doesn't ditch the corruption line.

 

I'm asexual but could put up with a lesbian "romance" if I like the character enough... the duel kills any chance of even thinking about Josie for me too, though. First because of the public nature as you said, but also and primarily because the "fight a man for possession of a woman" thing squicks me out like whoa. It's like she's a thing, not a person.

 

As for Blackwall, I'll say again that I don't mind him questioning the Inquisitior's leadership because that sort of thing is important. But then going ahead and forcing a public demonstration of just how deep the nepotism goes without showing any awareness or care for the fact that this is exactly what he is doing or for the fact that he's way out of line ... It's beyond mind-boggling and really makes me question the writer(s) because it's like a barrage of photon torpedos to that "trying to become a better man" arc. Self-absorbed, thoughtless and disrespectful like hell. Any initiative and decision of whether, when, where and how to discuss the relationship should have been left entirely and firmly in the hands of the Inquisitor.

 

As I said, I generally couldn't care less for "romance" in games and would actually be happier if they were removed altogether so it's not like I'll ever see that scene for myself. But it still gives him a "greatly disapproves" from me if the writers really think that's in-character for him to do. Ugh.

 

I wish the other party companions were less harsh towards him. 

 

It's very appropriate that they are, though. Blackwall has changed, but he is not innocent. And the reactions I've seen weren't actually that bad. Varric almost seems to take it in stride. Solas rips him apart ... and then apologizes. Cassandra is angry, but she has every right to be, and he'd rather take her anger than her silence. There's a chance for a slow reconciliation between those two. Dorian doesn't even seem to have a banter about it. Cole, of course, is in full-on "Compassion incarnate" mode, at least if you make him more of a spirit (some of the banters with more-human Cole are noticably harsher, apparently).

 

Don't know about the other three since I dislike and never use them, but I hear that Sera is and remains besties with him while Vivienne predictably is and remains an arse to him.

 

All in all, I don't think Blackwall has much to complain about when it comes to how the others react to him, even though the first post-quest banter with Cole does suggest that he's sore about people "tearing into him" and expects more of the same.

[AresKeith]

Blackwall's death was his fault. Blackwall died protecting Rainier. If Rainier had done the right thing from the start, Blackwall could very well be alive. 

 

 

So now we're blaming his death from a Darkspawn ambush on Thom 

[AtreiyaN7]

I'm all for redemption stories but I romanced Blackwall and I couldn't imagine a more selfish/horrible romantic partner in any game I have played.

 

As a companion he is okay but having romanced him has made me sort of hate the guy.

 

 

That's hilarious to me for two reasons:

 

1. Blackwall tries to warn the Inquisitor away from the start - even though he's interested in her - because he knows that it will only (in all likelihood) lead to pain for her (and for him). He tries to stop it form happening, aaaand the Inquisitor pushes the relationship.
2. He leaves because he truly wants to be (and actually is) the good man that the Inquisitor believes him to be and because he is attempting to keep her from being hurt by finding out the truth and having her reputation smeared by her association with him - even if it results in his death.

 

I'm not sure how you end up being more selfless than to essentially sacrifice your life for the person you love. Or maybe you think he was really getting some sort of benefit from turning himself in when he knew it would lead to a death sentence? Because I'm not sure how that's selfish.

[KaiserShep]

In a DLC, we'll learn that Thom left to have a secret meeting with a Hurlock Alpha, and paid him 50 sovereigns to take out Blackwall. It's the perfect crime.

[Andres Hendrix]

He did not kill a family including the children, he ordered other people to do it. Thus, on top of being responsible for such a despicable thing, he showed himself a moral coward. Admitting (as Blackwall did) that he was a moral coward who did stop the crime, does not take away the responsibility that sticks to him (forever) for comiting the crime. If people are saying something similar about Blackwall, then I'd say they are not the ones misunderstanding his character.

[Elisaveta]

That's hilarious to me for two reasons:

 

1. Blackwall tries to warn the Inquisitor away from the start - even though he's interested in her - because he knows that it will only (in all likelihood) lead to pain for her (and for him). He tries to stop it form happening, aaaand the Inquisitor pushes the relationship.
2. He leaves because he truly wants to be (and actually is) the good man that the Inquisitor believes him to be and because he is attempting to keep her from being hurt by finding out the truth and having her reputation smeared by her association with him - even if it results in his death.

 

I'm not sure how you end up being more selfless than to essentially sacrifice your life for the person you love. Or maybe you think he was really getting some sort of benefit from turning himself in when he knew it would lead to a death sentence? Because I'm not sure how that's selfish.

I agree with what you have said and it makes sense to me. Even though he's all I'm not worthy blah blah he still lets it happen knowing full well that it can seriously harm the Inquisitor/Inquisition. As an extreme example If I had HIV and didn't tell a potential love interest, have sexy time with them, something happens and they get infected would that be okay withholding that information!?! I would certainly hope not.

 

Well judge person I told them to stay away but they didn't SO ALL THEIR FAULT!

 

I mean I get what you are saying but I still think he did the easy thing, not the right thing at the start of the relationship.

 

Yes I agree with your second point he does try to be a good guy and does the right thing in the end. But perhaps a little too late? My biggest issue is I think there needed to be one more cut scene after the revelation or something to smooth out the story. I felt like there was too much left up to me to head canon to make sense of their relationship. Like others have said the whole judgment scene left me feeling dirty no matter which way I let the cards fall, the kiss in handcuffs was creepy.

[Qunquistador]

What's really strange to me is that those companions who are angry with Blackwall blame him not for his crime but for his lies first. I mean, the guy is responsible for murdering a bunch of innocent people, but everyone's first reaction is "Oh no you lied to us how could you!". Isn't him being a murderer far worse than being a liar? There is also Cullen who blames him for what he had done to his men, but does anyone ever bring up the matter of slaughtered children? 

I guess Sera doesn't care because she hates noble regardless of their age...or something. But Cullen's judgement struck me as odd. Dude didn't just lie to his men. When he realized there were young kids in the entourage, he made the decision that they would be killed to save face.

 

If anything, I don't think the companions were harsh enough. Cole, I understand since he's Cole. Varric's super understanding(which goes back to him being Mr. Unrealistically Likeable), likens him to a storyteller and says they have to believe their own lies.  The rest wouldn't speak to him at all, though. Not sure if it changed because I can't stomach running with the creep and leave him at Skyhold until he can be sent to the Wardens.

[Xetykins]

When someone tells you that being with them is a bad idea not once but many times, I usually heed them. Their reasons are their own. I knew full well that he tried to shoo me away and I went anyway on my own accord. Yes there was a lot of jaw dropping and hair pulling moments but in the end it was my choice :-)

[SgtSteel91]

You can find all of the companion's reactions to Blackwall's reveal in this video:

 

[ThreeF]

1. Blackwall tries to warn the Inquisitor away from the start - even though he's interested in her - because he knows that it will only (in all likelihood) lead to pain for her (and for him). He tries to stop it form happening, aaaand the Inquisitor pushes the relationship.

How early in the game this happens? I want to try it.

[Korva]

I'm not sure how you end up being more selfless than to essentially sacrifice your life for the person you love.

 

I can think of plenty of ways, actually, such as service and sacrifice to people you don't have a gushy-fuzzy personal connection with. Romantic love really gets too much glorification in the "selflessness" department.

 

 

Varric's super understanding(which goes back to him being Mr. Unrealistically Likeable)

 

Not a Varric fan, I take it? I like it when companions make an effort to get along and loathe disruptive people, so Varric's good in my book ... but some of the banters about how many people love his books and his chest hair is a bit over the top if it's meant to be played straight.

[AtreiyaN7]

I agree with what you have said and it makes sense to me. Even though he's all I'm not worthy blah blah he still lets it happen knowing full well that it can seriously harm the Inquisitor/Inquisition. As an extreme example If I had HIV and didn't tell a potential love interest, have sexy time with them, something happens and they get infected would that be okay withholding that information!?! I would certainly hope not.

 

Well judge person I told them to stay away but they didn't SO ALL THEIR FAULT!

 

I mean I get what you are saying but I still think he did the easy thing, not the right thing at the start of the relationship.

 

Yes I agree with your second point he does try to be a good guy and does the right thing in the end. But perhaps a little too late? My biggest issue is I think there needed to be one more cut scene after the revelation or something to smooth out the story. I felt like there was too much left up to me to head canon to make sense of their relationship. Like others have said the whole judgment scene left me feeling dirty no matter which way I let the cards fall, the kiss in handcuffs was creepy.

 

There actually is supposed to be some dialogue allowing you to question him after the judgment, but there is a bug meaning you probably didn't get a chance to ask the questions. Sheryl Chee herself posted about it in the Blackwall thread. You should be able to question him some more about his background (like is it true that he's from Markham) and so forth.

 

If you want the full explanation of why it's happening, just go to the thread and look for the dev posts. Someone in the thread actually has a video of the post-judgment questions, because she's the one person who managed to get them:

 

 

There's what everyone should have been able to ask. As for him doing the "easy" thing - I don't think it's easy to push away someone that you're quite obviously falling for hard (or are at least really attracted to). And per his later dialogue, he says that he wanted to tell you the truth about why you couldn't be together during the Explanations quest. The reason he didn't is that he lost his nerve when the Inquisitor found the badge first - it's not like he didn't try to tell the truth.

 

And regarding the kiss, while it would have been nice to have a more private options, I've come to two conclusions about this:

 

1. Everyone in the great hall/throne room is already hearing every single thing you're saying anyway, so the fact that you love him and are taking him back is pretty open as it is.
2. It's total - if somewhat embarrassingly public - honesty, affirming that this thing is real and that he's not going to hide anything anymore (certainly not his feelings) now that he's got a second chance.

 

Hey, even I felt a little embarrassed by it - but after a certain amount of reflection, I was like "eh, at least this isn't like Benjamin and Elaine and the church in The Graduate."

[Catwall]

I can think of plenty of ways, actually, such as service and sacrifice to people you don't have a gushy-fuzzy personal connection with. Romantic love really gets too much glorification in the "selflessness" department.

Yes, in that sense, it's right up there with parenthood.

[introverted_assassin]

He did not kill a family including the children, he ordered other people to do it. Thus, on top of being responsible for such a despicable thing, he showed himself a moral coward. Admitting (as Blackwall did) that he was a moral coward who did stop the crime, does not take away the responsibility that sticks to him (forever) for comiting the crime. If people are saying something similar about Blackwall, then I'd say they are not the ones misunderstanding his character.

this is it exactly.

[AtreiyaN7]

I can think of plenty of ways, actually, such as service and sacrifice to people you don't have a gushy-fuzzy personal connection with. Romantic love really gets too much glorification in the "selflessness" department.

 

Yes, but it's the same even if you don't romance him. Because with a non-romance Inquisitor, he's still doing it to be the good person that the Inquisitor - whom he presumably respects for his/her actions - thinks he is, and he is still trying to protect the non-romanced Inquisitor's reputation.

[Qunquistador]

 

I'm not sure how you end up being more selfless than to essentially sacrifice your life for the person you love. Or maybe you think he was really getting some sort of benefit from turning himself in when he knew it would lead to a death sentence? Because I'm not sure how that's selfish.

You realize he turns himself in regardless of whether you romance him, of course. His decision to turn himself in has nothing to do with his love for the Inquisitor as a rule. He was tired of living a lie and even says so. He wanted to die, which is why when you get him out of jail, he's angry that you didn't let him have the easy way out. Imo, death became preferable to living with knowing what a self-serving coward he truly is when he's not roleplaying a heroic Grey Warden. 

 

Everything Rainier does he does to serve his own needs. But if one squints through rose colored glasses I'm sure it will look selfless.. 

[KaiserShep]

The report of Mornay's execution that he took from Leliana (or one of her agents) is what triggered his departure. Can't help but wonder how he got a hold of it.

[SgtSteel91]

It's very appropriate that they are, though. Blackwall has changed, but he is not innocent. And the reactions I've seen weren't actually that bad. Varric almost seems to take it in stride. Solas rips him apart ... and then apologizes. Cassandra is angry, but she has every right to be, and he'd rather take her anger than her silence. There's a chance for a slow reconciliation between those two. Dorian doesn't even seem to have a banter about it. Cole, of course, is in full-on "Compassion incarnate" mode, at least if you make him more of a spirit (some of the banters with more-human Cole are noticably harsher, apparently).

 

Don't know about the other three since I dislike and never use them, but I hear that Sera is and remains besties with him while Vivienne predictably is and remains an arse to him.

 

Dorian is understanding of Blackwall wanting to atone and apologizes for remarking in an earlier conversation about Grey Wardens being murderers. Blackwall, for his part, respects Dorian for leaving his decadent, pampered life in Tevinter for principle. And in a later conversation he suggests that Blackwall lighten up the self-hating since he thinks Blackwall is a good man. It's kind of the inversion of Blackwall's and Cassandra's relationship. They start as bickering rivals and end as respectful friends.

 

Vivienne thinks it's hilarious that Blackwall wasn't really a Grey Warden, nothing more.

 

Iron Bull doesn't hate Blackwall and thinks it's good Blackwall isn't lying to himself and letting doubt cloud his skills. Although things get heated if Iron Bull allows the Charger to die (guess the situation hits too close to Blackwall's case and he hates leaving your men to die) or when Blackwall states his dislike for the life of a mercenary.

[Abelas Forever!]

I just can't see how it makes Blackwall a better a man when he leaves you because you are trying to save the world and that should be priority number one. Even though he now after all those years is going to take responsibility for his actions and save a man who doesn't deserve execution he still leaves you in trouble. You have propably used the treaties he gave you and people might have seen him with you so that too could cause you trouble.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

Sorry if I'm late for this but I admit I'm a bit astonished by all the fuss about the 'kiss in public' big scandal. I must have lost an episode or two of the series 'the world has changed' because I grew up with movies like these:

 

 

 

and I always cried my eyes out because it's beautiful. As you can see people applaude or mind their own business, no one is outraged.

 

Please someone help me understand what happened to people while I was inattentive 

[Qunquistador]

Not a Varric fan, I take it?   I like it when companions make an effort to get along and loathe disruptive people, so Varric's good in my book ... but some of the banters about how many people love his books and his chest hair is a bit over the top if it's meant to be played straight.

On the contrary, I like Varric. He's a bud, but he's right up there with Garrus in terms of his "clearly the writers love me so you must, too" presentation. 

[AtreiyaN7]

You realize he turns himself in regardless of whether you romance him, of course. His decision to turn himself in has nothing to do with his love for the Inquisitor as a rule. He was tired of living a lie and even says so. He wanted to die, which is why when you get him out of jail, he's angry that you didn't let him have the easy way out. Imo, death became preferable to living with knowing what a self-serving coward he truly is when he's not roleplaying a heroic Grey Warden. 

 

Everything Rainier does he does to serve his own needs. But if one squints through rose colored glasses I'm sure it will look selfless.. 

Gee, didn't read my posts up above? Because we started out discussing issues related to the romance specifically, and in the romance there is a specific option to say that it was because of you. I proceeded to address the issue of the non-romanced Inquisitor in my other post and pointed out that even in THAT case, it's because he still wants to be the good man that the non-romanced Inquisitor believes him to be - quite likely because he really respects him/her for his/her actions. Just because you dislike the character and want to try to claim that everything he's ever done is selfish doesn't make it so. He was selfish six years ago when he took that money to assassinate a general - and then he changed.

 

Also, he didn't want to die per se, but he was ready to die and to take responsibility in that way - there's a big difference there. This is clearly triggered by him finding Leliana's report stating that Mornay was scheduled for execution within the week in Val Royeaux. But yeah, please go on claiming that he was just filled with selfishness when he could have gotten away with his lie and kept on going (as Cullen himself points out during the Val Royeaux conversation) but instead turns himself in to save someone else.

 

 

He did not kill a family including the children, he ordered other people to do it. Thus, on top of being responsible for such a despicable thing, he showed himself a moral coward. Admitting (as Blackwall did) that he was a moral coward who did stop the crime, does not take away the responsibility that sticks to him (forever) for comiting the crime. If people are saying something similar about Blackwall, then I'd say they are not the ones misunderstanding his character.

 

No one has said that he isn't responsible, and he embraces his responsibility in the end by turning himself in. He even says that the responsibility for all of it is on him and acknowledges that he was a coward back then. It's pretty damned clear from all of Cole's dialogue that he has always carried the weight of it around ever since the massacre took place.

[Sabreenei]

The report of Mornay's execution that he took from Leliana (or one of her agents) is what triggered his departure. Can't help but wonder how he got a hold of it.

 

From Leliana's reaction when you talk to her in Haven after finding Blackwall, I really think she knows all along who he is. She might not say anything, and Cullen might not have an inkling she knows, but there are quite a few things that make me feel she does. 1) Her reaction when in Haven, about "not what she expected", (2) the letter about the real Blackwall you find in her roost in Skyhold, (3) Blackwall somehow getting ahold of the report about his man from the spymaster, (4) the Leliana option to get him out of jail -- she just happens to have a criminal that looks exactly like him on hand. I'm pretty sure she was ready for all of this.

[KaiserShep]

Please someone help me understand what happened to people while I was inattentive 

 

I think it started with the Say Anything shooting, where some guy was gunned down for standing out in the open with a boombox raised over his head.

[KaiserShep]

From Leliana's reaction when you talk to her in Haven after finding Blackwall, I really think she knows all along who he is. She might not say anything, and Cullen might not have an inkling she knows, but there are quite a few things that make me feel she does. 1) Her reaction when in Haven, about "not what she expected", (2) the letter about the real Blackwall you find in her roost in Skyhold, (3) Blackwall somehow getting ahold of the report about his man from the spymaster, (4) the Leliana option to get him out of jail -- she just happens to have a criminal that looks exactly like him on hand. I'm pretty sure she was ready for all of this.

I got the dialogue from Cullen, but I didn't think to check Leliana's little rookery. Leli's one shady mofo I have to say.

 

As for Leliana's solution to getting him out, it seemed like it varied this time around. In my last playthrough, she just says that she'll get him out, and that it's best the Inquisitor not ask why, and there he was ready to judge. I can't remember what changes this.